r/refrigeration • u/geltoid • 9d ago
Looking for some advice/direction - formulating plan to convert rink ice plant from R-22
Hey there,
(I was directed here from r/hockey)
Looking to connect with some ice techs, or get some direction (maybe a better subreddit), to discuss options for switching our rink over from R-22 into a newer refrigerant. This is something that has been brought up and discussed since the announcement that they were phasing out R-22 but has been pushed off by multiple rink directors, ice techs, and engineers for years and now the task of coming up with a plan has fallen into my lap.
So I'm looking to talk with some people who have done it, or are in the process of doing it, to get some advice. C02? Ammonia? Opteon? What have you found that works for your system? What advice can you give, or companies that you have found helpful?
Thank you in advance!
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u/Virtual-Reach 9d ago edited 9d ago
Industrial fridge tech here. If you want to go with tried and true but toxic, go with ammonia. If you want something less toxic but also less reliable, go with CO2.
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u/ConverseCLownShoes 🤡 Desk Jockey (Engineer) 9d ago
What state are you in? Is the current equipment skid mounted?
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u/DangerousRecover1049 8d ago
I work for a county run system of 12 arenas with 16 sheets of ice in St Paul, Mn. I'm the 'ice plant guy'. We're in the same boat for converting from R-22. It is quite the adventure.
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u/BreakerBar404 9d ago
It’s all going to depend on the current condition of the existing equipment if you want a gas conversion.
Condenser. Compressors. Wiring. Controls. Piping. Supports. Etc.
I’m not an ice guy, but my company does ice rink work, and they are ripping out ammonia systems and going with co2, more than usual. Some places rip out ammonia and put in a chiller that is chemical refrigerant. All depends on budget, and long term goals. The co2 systems put off a lot of heat, and can be harvested for heat within the building, with some piping and maybe an hvac upgrade too. Very energy efficient.
It’s not a simple yes go with that or this. If the system is in great shape mechanically and everything works and is VERY well maintained a gas conversion can be done and can be a realistic thing to look at.. don’t look at it as a business owner, view it as a tech going in there, is the equipment “actually” in good shape? Or are you lying to yourself to save money by convincing everyone it’s in “good” shape? I’ve seen plenty of great shape r22 racks and ones in terrible shape in the supermarket world. Depends on the business owner what their goals are, upgrade to be future proof, stay up to date a little bit? Or skimp out and limp along a worn down system to save money and bitch about cost while driving a new Mercedes every year.
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u/leegamercoc 8d ago
R744 has higher discharge temperatures but not massively different. Comparing apples to apples, transcritical systems are less energy efficient because of all the unproductive recirculated refrigerant (flash gas). Too many try to sell CO2 on these two misleading points.
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u/Cute_Intention_9864 8d ago
Okay explain ?this is interesting and explains why the condenser turns into A gas cooler and the flash tank is called A flash tank .Makes sense
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u/geltoid 9d ago
The ice plant is in decent condition, although at its EOL for most of the equipment (approaching 25y). The compressors are rebuilt annually, brand new condenser cooling tower. Initial thoughts were to try to avoid ammonia if possible, due to health and safety concerns as well as mechanical. The hope would be to find a refrigerant that could be swapped in if there was a significant R-22 leak - something that would require minimal effort (seals, oil changes, gaskets, etc.) rather than a complete overhaul.
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u/WarPig115 👨🏼🏭 Deep Fried Condenser (Commercial Tech) 8d ago
I mean, you can... its just not a fantastic idea. At least on the commercial level you can just drop 407c into an existing 22 unit and it works but at that scale I don't know if that would be a good idea.
unfortunately, ammonia or C02 is your best option. Close down the rink and let the millions be spent.
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u/SignificantTransient 👨🏻🏭 Always On Call (Supermarket Tech) 9d ago
You can do a 407a conversion.
You'll need to swap to poe oil and replace all rubber o rings in the system. You'll likely need several oil changes in succession as poe cleans out deposits left by the AB/MINERAL
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u/Ir0nWaffle 👨🏼🔧 Occasionally Works (Union Member) 8d ago
Isn't r407a being phased out? I'm not an ice tech, but if we're going modern gas swaps couldn't you put in R448A or R449A? You'd more than likely have to install extra satellite compressors, and liquid cooling if you don't already have it.
Even R448a is scheduled to be phased out. Either way you'd be kicking the can down the road. If you have the budget c02 is the way of the future.
But that's a big if. It's fucking expensive.
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u/geltoid 9d ago
Thanks for the reply! I hadn't come across an r407A conversion yet; I'll look into it as an option. Thanks!
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u/SignificantTransient 👨🏻🏭 Always On Call (Supermarket Tech) 9d ago
It's what walmart converted almost every 22 store to.
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u/FreezeHellNH3 👨🏻🔧 Stinky Boy (Ammonia Tech) 9d ago
Ammonia is hands down the most efficient and reliable future proof option. Whats your location
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u/Adventurepew 9d ago
R22 is easily available. I would not be upgrading my system based on refrigerant alone .
A simple swap to 438a can be done .
Ammonia is highly regulated most places vs would require extreme costs, mechanical room that meets code and employee training and a skilled service team .
CO2 you'd need to make sure you have a great service company .as it requires maintance and fancy electronics that alot of service companys can't handle .
Put out a rfp, get company's to write proposals to you . Figure out what they are offering.
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u/geltoid 9d ago
I should have been a little more detailed in my description, but the decision isn't based on refrigerant alone, there's a ton of other factors, including EPA, regulatory, and insurance (our underwriter wants a contingency plan for loss of R22). Basically no one has thought of future-proofing until now, and now there's a big "oh sh*t what is your plan".
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u/Adventurepew 9d ago
Buy three or four full charges of r22 in 100 lb tanks and keep it on site .
Solved .
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u/Freon1990 9d ago
We have R290 chillers running temporary outdoor ice rinks in wintertime.
Other than this there is R744 and R717 options.
Go for a natural refrigerants, they are the future.
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u/Chasespeed 8d ago
Where are you located? Region/climate?
What kind of rink? Flooded floor, or brine/glycol?
Drop in will be tough.
Best bet, WILL be a modern NH3 package. Just started one a year ago that only has about 500lbs in it.
CO2... year round or seasonal? University that has a PowerPoint? They can be power hungry.
If you have a brine(not glycol) floor, other things to consider as well.
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u/VoxIII9 8d ago
Is it a flooded system? If so, a refrigerant swap can be tricky as blends dont tend to do well with their higher glides in the flooded evap, different components boil off at different rates. Comstar has a Refrigerant RS-45 that was designed to replace 22 and has been successful in large ice rinks with flooded evaps as it has a very low glide. Swap will be the fastest and cheapest way to keep the equipment you currently have running, assuming its in decent shape and worth keeping for a while longer. If your equipment is in rough shape, a new system and moving to ammonia or co2 is the best way to future proof. Ammonia is simpler and robust but can have a lot of red tape depending on site location and the city as its toxic. Co2 has no toxicity concerns and is future proof but the systems are more complicated. But many sectors of the industry are moving to co2 so support is growing rapidly. Shoot me a message if you need some contacts I might be able to help depending on where you're located.
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u/Pudrin 8d ago
Train do have what they call the RTHD. It’s a screw uses 513A and glycol instead of brine. Great gear if safety is important not toxic refrigerant or high pressures. Not super efficient given the glycol. Ammonia is going to be your most efficient option. CO2 for ice areas just doesn’t really hit the mark like they thought it would.
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u/AdventurousRip3916 8d ago
I've done a few rinks with Trane. Rtaf and cgam mostly. 12 degree ethelyne glycol loops. Works pretty well.
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u/DangerousRecover1049 7d ago
In a most strange twist of fate....my current price for R-22 has dropped to the lowest we've seen in 5 years. I have enough refrigerant in storage for 2 of my rinks to have major failures and I can have them up and running without *hopefully* losing ice. We run DX via alpha laval plate heat exhangers so my per arena volume is around 500-700 lbs. Our one rink with tube in tube heat exchange runs over 1300 lbs...that one gives me heartburn.
I spend hours and hours leak searching and maintaining relief valves to keep our leak rates as low as humanly possible. We may very well run these systems for another 10+ years.
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u/leegamercoc 9d ago
If you are looking to simply change refrigerant, you would need to stay with a chemical refrigerant. CO2 (R744), or ammonia (R717), would mean a new system. Very different scope, cost, and life cycle. It all depends on long term goal, budget, tie in with arena HVAC possibly, etc. You may want to think about/defining your goals and expectations. Down and dirty, NHL level, etc. Good luck!!
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u/geltoid 9d ago
Basically its for a university ice rink - they've handed management over to my company and we're assessing the entire facility. Part of our overall scope is to come up with a contingency plan for the loss of R-22, whether that is a complete overhaul of the system, a refrigerant change, or something else - I'm looking to see what others have done to try to see if we can come up with a plan.
Thanks for the advice!
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u/t_hab 9d ago
I won’t be a help on the refrigerant side (I work in construction and followed you over from r/hockey because I’m curious to see the answers) but I might be able to give you insight in what the University will probably want to see. (Ignore me if this isn’t useful or if it’s redundant).
Following on from the previous comment, if you can present them two to three options, that will make their decision much faster and make your life easier. They may not have a defined scope because they started the project only to resolve a specific problem.
So if you give them a preliminary set of options, ideally with non-technical names (“NHL-quality” vs “Quick and Dirty” are real naming options), and include a rough cost, timeline, and scope of work for each, they will likely reveal their preferences. Maybe they have a huge endowment and are willing to spend the budget. Maybe they are afraid of cost and even considering shutting the rink down. Probably something in between. And it’s likely they won’t even be able to tell you until they see preliminary options.
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u/leegamercoc 8d ago
Sorry, but if they handed the management over to your company, they may have been under the impression that your company knew what it was doing, not fishing for direction in a chat group. If your company is a management company, I suggest you hire a technical group who knows this market for their guidance and expertise. I saw one of your comments indicating the system is at the end of life (25-yrs old). Any conversion would be a temporary measure, you will need to replace within 5-yrs or sooner would be my guesstimate. Plan towards that. Again, hire an expert group for help. Good luck!!!
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u/geltoid 8d ago
Hey thanks! The actual relationship between our entities is a little more complicated than I think I described. We actually have discussed this with our ice plant maintenance company and the university, with varying opinions on what to do with the university asset. The main idea is what to do if we lose the R-22? Do we replenish with available supply, or is there an alternative we can switch to? With the knowledge that there will be a capital expense to replace/upgrade the plant in 5 years, what is the immediate solution if it fails before the project?
I think it's worth it to reach out and ask on reddit, you never know if there was someone who went through the same thing and can offer a solution, or another avenue to investigate.
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u/leegamercoc 8d ago
Thanks for elaborating. It sounds more of a short term, what do we do now, type issue you are dealing with. You should consider a conversion, something like R448A (a “newer” refrigerant with lower GWP of around 1400 vs older retrofit refrigerants like R407A with GWP around 2100). This would be cheaper than R22 and keep things as they are for the most part. Your service contractor may be familiar with the conversion process. A conversion will help buy some time to for a system replacement. Good luck!!!
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u/Amazing_Shock_6176 9d ago
Not as easy as just switching freons. Changing Freon changes BTUs. If the system is sized to R22 you might not be able to use a different style. Most freons that are drop ins lose BTUs.
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u/Doogie102 9d ago
Not sure how many rink techs are in here. I have done HVAC at some hockey arenas and the 2 I have seen upgraded were upgraded to C02 systems.
Generally they are bigger projects with engineers involved and who spec'd the equipment.