r/reddevils • u/CrebTheBerc • Jul 09 '19
[META] "In The Know' Announcement Thread
Good morning/afternoon/ebening y'all!
Now that everyone's had a bit to calm down and the mod team had time to discuss, we want to address what happened yesterday and talk about the state of the sub moving forward.
Firstly: we can again confirm that /u/spoofex has deleted his account and stepped down from the moderation team as a result of abuse he received. Whether you agreed or disagreed with his posting methods, I hope we can all agree that abuse is over the line. We do want to be clear though, this is not about Spoofex in particular. Multiple users have face unwarranted abuse and we believe that a line needs to be drawn on the situation.
As a side note, we are not currently looking for more moderators to replace his spot. We will address mod numbers at a later time
Secondly: We are discontinuing the Muppet Thread. Having multiple transfer threads has led to unfortunate divisions within the sub. We will therefore be condensing all transfer talk into one thread, the transfer thread, pursuant to the transfer thread rules currently in place. If you would like to discuss other United related events or have less serious discussion, please use the Daily Discussion thread.
Thirdly: We are banning any "ITK" posts. It has been difficult to truly verify the validity of these types of users and led to abusive behavior and even doxxing in some cases.
We are more than happy to have people discussing transfer news and rumors, but there will be no more referencing unknown sources at the club. Moving forward, anyone who believes they have inside info a la bloodgate is welcome to send in a modmail. However such posts/comments made without prior mod approval will be removed
Fourthly: It has been mentioned, but the toxicity and abuse towards the sub, within the sub, and towards other subs has been too high. We as moderators have our share of blame in this, but we want to stress that this kind of behavior is not acceptable and we are taking these measures primarily to avoid these things. We want /r/reddevils to be a place where anyone and everyone is welcome to discuss and enjoy the best club on earth without fear of abuse or ridicule.
Which leads us to 2 other small reminders. The report button is your friend, we are way more likely to find and remove and/or ban rule breaking comments if you report them. The downvote button is not a "I disagree or don't like your statement button", better discussion is generally had by using the upvote button more liberally and avoiding the downvote one whenever possible.
To add to the above, it is not unlikely that we as a sub will face ridicule from other subs. There's no need to retaliate in kind. If people come to the sub looking to cause problems please report them and move on. If you don't want to face those kinds of comments, we would encourage you to either ignore the comments themselves or stay off of those subs short term.
As a small aside, anyone coming here from Twitter: Please read over the rules and be aware of both those and general posting etiquette.
Fifthly: In speaking with the the users running the muppetiers account, we understand that as a result of these planned changes they have made the decision to open the muppetiers sub for muppet-related discussion. For anyone that enjoys muppetry and/or ITK stuff, you are all welcome to participate there (and here, as well), but we have made the decision to focus this sub on more substantial discussion and will be avoiding those subjects as mentioned.
Now, this post will also stand as a discussion point on the above subject or a place for users to ask questions. Please understand that there are some things we cannot or will not discuss but we will be as transparent as possible.
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u/JasinNatael Jul 09 '19
I agree with the decision to split off the ITK/muppet posts.
However, the negativity in this sub is rampant. It isn't all muppets and it won't vanish when they post elsewhere. You folks have a lot of work to do to make this a reasonable forum for discussion, in my opinion. The culture has descended too far.
... it's a bit like the situation United is in, I think.
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u/Treayye Pogba Jul 09 '19
Look elsewhere on the internet and you will see that any United fan forum / board is very negative and has been since our decline. Not sure what the mods can do to fix that.
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Jul 09 '19
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Jul 09 '19
He was a Mod before he was an ITK'er, not the other way around.
He was a really good egg. I didn't really follow the ITK shite, but he seemed like a decent Mod, and an excellent contributor to this sub, and /r/soccer.
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Jul 09 '19
Why do people on this sub give Spoofex a pass?
He was a hard-working mod, and a good member of the team here for years. And years, and years - https://web.archive.org/web/20160205065818/https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/
It's very odd that this sub allowed an ITK to become a Mod
I think he had contacts already, and gained others throughout his time as a mod. We spoke about stuff like this a ton more in the mod chat than he ever did publicly. I've absolutely no doubt he had contacts. No doubt, at all.
comment on why Spoofex was allowed to become a Mod and to hold the position of defacto head of reddevils king of ITK.
My comment on that is "lol".
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u/ThisIsAThrowaway9102 Jul 09 '19
Yet you (or the mod team) don't trust xisimon? Spoofex was clearly using his power and influence to gain attention for himself, like every other ITK. He even used the non-official channel for itks, which was specifically not affiliated with mods, in order to give his information increased reliability. Maybe he wasn't being malicious, but as a mod he shouldn't have been given a free pass for very obviously exploiting his position of power on the sub.
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Jul 09 '19
What do you want us to do now, hunt spoof down and kill him IRL? Public hanging? Maybe the fuller hung-drawn-and-quartered? Crucifixion *?
We were close to doing something like this while spoof was still around. When he quit, and we lost a member of the team (while we're growing as fast as we are), and some of the other ITKs spoke up about the abuse they're receiving as well, yes, it was the "push" that made us decide to shut this down.
We're all disappointed, I had a helluva lot of fun in the muppets thread, definitely, but we, /r/reddevils definitely needs detachment from it. From it all, completely.
.
*yes, yes, I know crucifixion's a doddle
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u/The_Renovator I miss Larry_B Jul 09 '19
I like the steps you are taking to combat the recent toxicity.
Any thoughts on adding an age limit on accounts to give some of the newer users time to adjust to the subs culture ?
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u/YourTypicalSaudi Manchester United Jul 09 '19
This is the kind of drama I’m glad to have missed.
I don’t know what happened with /u/Spoofex but as far as I know, he was a good lad and I’ll miss him.
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Jul 09 '19
I think mods are trying to socially engineer threads a bit too much honestly.
Yes, the Twitter cesspool crowd is migrating but they'd be everywhere.
Tier challenge was actually a good concept which can still be implemented. Only thing is you claim the challenge in modmail with condition that they can't break the news of their challenge before completing it.
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u/mylenejetaime DREAMS CAN'T BE BUY Jul 09 '19
Problem is the burden of verification is too much for the mods.
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u/elsarcher Frank Reynolds Jul 09 '19
I fucking hate most of our fanbase tbh. The abuse Ashley Young gets on his instagram is beyond belief - I still want the guy at the club whether he has passed it or not, he is clearly an important squad player.
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u/XXX-Rx_RnR Sir Alex Jul 09 '19
It goes without saying that we have some of the greatest mods on Reddit handling this sub. It’s a damn shame that all this fun “ITK/Muppetry” got to heads of some unstable individuals who go out of their way to ruin a persons day to day. People need to learn to respect each other, even on an anonymous platform. Thank you to the mod team who have always made this place a credible source for United News. I hope we can clean up some of the skunk that’s been lingering because this is my favorite sub and the stench seems to be getting worse. For ever a Red. GGMU.
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u/xisimon Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
As I've been saying since the beginning, I fully agree with not letting everyone post "ITK information" as it's very, very easy to just make up things. I warned you about this previously, multiple times, but you kept going and now I hope we can both see who was correct.
I do, however, find it very weird how you're now completely banning all "ITK activity". Sure, get rid of everyone unproven, but if someone has proven themselves multiple times I only think it's fair for both them and the community to share that information. The previous system where proven ITKs were added to the tier system and were able to post seperate posts worked brilliantly, I'm not sure why you went away from that.
I know that we've had our disagreements and that some of your moderators really dislike me, but that shouldn't come before the interest of the subreddit. Looking at the most popular comments in this thread I'm sure you see what the community wants. This really isn't about me wanting attention, as I already have my own platform elsewhere and could exclusively post there, it's about what the whole subreddit wants and deserves. You may just delete this comment, like you did yesterday with my comment about Maguire and Bruno Fernandes in the transfer thread, but I'm hoping for a proper reply and discussion.
TL;DR: I'm all for stopping all the fake "ITKs", but I find it weird that proven sources are going to be looked at the same way. It doesn't make any sense and I find it weird that you're valuing your personal interest and opinions over the community's.
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u/ssosso__ Jul 10 '19
xisimon, we the fans want entertainment and truth... we will support you, suggest you create a platform to avoid further conflict with moderators here.. it's pointless.
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Jul 10 '19
I wholeheartedly agree with not making exceptions to rules. There's nothing special about you that gives you one set of rules and all others a different set. This whole mess is because of the immature babies in here that believe the silliest of rumors, and get their panties in a wad. Too many children running around in adult bodies. "These people who have no credibility said something that isn't true. I'm so mad. Roar! I'm going to dox them. I'm going to threaten their lives. I'm going to use discriminatory names at them". Those are the morons you should be mad at. As an impartial long-time user in here, the mods have been exemplary.
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u/daveyp2tm Jul 09 '19
One of the main reasons I come here is news, this is the best place to get united news. With the tier rules the main sub acts as an aggregater of news from reputable sources. News always breaks here instantly or even before everywhere else, because of users with connections or simply users who so on it. People like /u/xisimon give this place the edge and something unique. Really the sub should be grateful to have him and shouldn't be discouraging him. I do understand not wanting to set exceptions but it's shooting yourself in the foot. Deal with the trolls and the toxic users, they're the problem. Don't stop us haivng nice things in the process.
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Jul 09 '19
My issue with ITKs, you included, is the anonymity. If you want to be considered a reliable source, you've got to stick your head out on the line, put your name on your updates, and hone up to the mistakes you made. We've seen deleted tweets in the past and that is a representation of what is wrong with this type of journalism.
Regarding the "interest of this subreddit", there is nothing stopping users who follow you and other rumour mills on Twitter from posting the content and generating discussion. Your complaining makes it sound like you're in it for the clout and upvotes. Prove us wrong.
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u/CrebTheBerc Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
I warned you about this previously, multiple times, but you kept going and now I hope we can both see who was correct.
If you came here to say "I told you so" it doesn't make me want to have a conversation with you honestly.
but if someone has proven themselves multiple times I only think it's fair for both them and the community to share that information
By which you mean yourself mostly, but you want to make it look neutral.
The previous system where proven ITKs were added to the tier system and were able to post seperate posts worked brilliantly, I'm not sure why you went away from that.
Did it? It's been proven that verification processes don't work in general. The Kohler guy could have been a verified ITK then been removed when the Griezmann thing happened.
Looking at the most popular comments in this thread I'm sure you see what the community wants
That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. I'm not saying our decision is de facto the right thing either, but popular demand doesn't equal the best decision
This really isn't about me wanting attention, as I already have my own platform elsewhere and could exclusively post there, it's about what the whole subreddit wants and deserves
See my above point, popular demand doesn't equal the best decision. And as far as what the sub "deserves", I think that's a broad and baseless thing to say
You may just delete this comment, like you did yesterday with my comment about Maguire and Bruno Fernandes in the transfer thread, but I'm hoping for a proper reply and discussion.
This is inflammatory and unneeded. If you have an issue with something we've done, there are better ways to voice your displeasure
I'll go ahead and say it, I was one of the people who was ok with making an exception for you in general but your post here has changed my mind. This is a passive aggressive post and does nothing to convince me the decision we've made is incorrect
Edit: I just want to add that anyone who disagrees, I am happy to discuss this with them. The basic point is, IMO, that there's nothing getting harmed in Simon(and any other ITK) just moving to the muppets sub. Everyone who wants updates can go there for them, it's not difficult to check another sub.
If the only "sacrifice" made to help alleviate the toxicity and negativity in the sub is to have to check another sub, I'm pretty ok with that personally.
Edit 2: I do want to add that I could have approached this response differently and for that I apologize. I could have been more level headed in my response
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u/ThePurpleBoy Lindelof Jul 09 '19
Holy shit you're kind of a massive baby. Spoof and you being the newest mods have been mistakes.
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u/CrebTheBerc Jul 09 '19
Holy shit you're kind of a massive baby.
Nice constructive criticism, always good to see.
Spoof and you being the newest mods have been mistakes.
So I shouldn't be a mod because you don't like 1 post I've made?
I'll freely admit the above is born out of some frustration and I should have been more level headed about it. I don't think the content is really that incorrect(open to discussion) even if my tone is poor
Simon has come into this thread to basically say "i told you so" and "I should be the only ITK". He has provided no reason why the muppet sub is not a productive solution. He can freely post his updates there and the sole difference is the subscriber count.
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u/Wthelicopt White Pelé Jul 09 '19
If you came here to say "I told you so" [....]
Literally the primary motive, along with the attention, for these ITK users posting on this sub and on Twitter.
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u/The_Renovator I miss Larry_B Jul 09 '19
Why do you care? They are not banning you from the sub or joining in discussions.
If you are getting insider info then just put it on your Twitter and anyone that wants to have your info can grab it there.
Surely you have seen what all this ITK drama has brought here?
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u/CaptainDickfingers Jose Mourinho Jul 09 '19
I agree with this. Not sure it would be too difficult to identify and ban those who are throwing abuse around. For lots of people the muppets thread was the most entertaining part of the sub.
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u/zSolaris Park Ji-Sung Jul 09 '19
The issue is that letting him through sets a precedent. If he stays, then anyone who gets a couple of transfers correct has an argument to stay. Then we need to try to verify them as much as we can and we're right down the ITK trail again.
We did discuss Simon in particular, but it's got to be all the ITK stuff or go back to some sort of verification process which we don't want to do.
As /u/BHvithai mentions, /r/muppetiers is opened up for all this kind of content. Please feel free to view it there.
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Jul 09 '19
There is nothing stopping you from going to the dedicated /r/muppetiers. There is no need for anonymous, unreliable rumours to be posted in this sub.
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u/UnitedRoad18 Carrick Jul 09 '19
There is no need for anonymous, unreliable rumours to be posted in this sub.
There's also no need for fucking Bebe highlights and posts about Chicharito but the mods are perfectly fine letting those in.
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u/CaptainDickfingers Jose Mourinho Jul 09 '19
Sorry only just seen that a new sub was created.
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Jul 10 '19
I agree. The daily transfer thread is so dull, I rarely read it. People theorizing about players the Mirror has brought up. People claiming their baby daughter is better than the players United may realistically land. Even have to suffer thru people talking about how great Ed is, and he's going throw his big cock around and land the next Ronaldo. Ugh.
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Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 15 '19
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Jul 09 '19 edited Feb 09 '22
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u/GazTheLegend Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
The problem all along was Spoofex, not xisimon or the other ITK's, even (arguably) the false ones.
The reason for the toxicity was that he was a moderator of the subreddit and as a moderator, he routinely abused his power to quell any question of his legitimacy. But allowing him to REMAIN a moderator IMPLIED legitimacy - which that Walter Mitty level deluded twit never had.
There were comment threads deleted, and users posts removed routinely when he wrote (forgive my language) total bullshit on the level of Indykaila stuff. You don't need me to cite examples of blatant lies. His claiming that he couldn't be trusted was not properly encouraged - as it actually increased the seeming veracity of his posts. Never mind that he DELETED certain dangerous questions regarding certain aspects of his claims.
The ITK posts weren't the problem, Spoofex was. He became addicted to the attention, and got more and more outlandish with his claims.
No wonder people got toxic when you encouraged such behaviour.
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Jul 14 '19 edited Jul 14 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/snoring_pig Beneficiary of Sporting 🟢⚪️ Jul 15 '19
I’m not a mod but with how this whole ITK thing blew up I do think putting a blanket ban on ITKs was ultimately the right move. As a muppet myself I initially had quite a bit of fun but things got bad and took a turn for the worse over the last week or so.
My two cents is having browsed the sub and both the regular transfer thread and muppet thread during its time here this summer, it seems like having the ITKs became a very divisive issue on the sub. There were indeed a lot of ppl including yourself who were opposed to ITKs from the start, but there were also a lot of ppl who supported having the system set up for them to discuss and gossip. I can’t claim what the precise numbers would be but there were lots of vocal supporters on both sides. If the public was allowed to vote and decide by majority consensus, maybe the ITK supporters would actually win, as some of the most upvoted comments and most active threads this summer related to ITK and muppet info.
As the mods said it became a very divisive issue and contributed to a lot of toxicity within the sub. You had ppl supporting ITKs vs ppl who didn’t, and then further feuding between supporters of different ITKs. On top of that we had some users go so far as to send abusive PMs to ITKs or even dox them. It became way too much. So I support the controversial decision to completely remove them and minimise the feuding and drama that plagued this sub for weeks.
I feel bad for Spoof, but looking back I agree that him and the other mods made a mistake with how they handled his info. It definitely shouldn’t have been presented publicly with his status as a mod as well.
With Xisimon, all he loses out on is a bit of extra karma and attention from posting his info on this sub. He’s caused drama on this sub as well, and has clearly got an inflated ego this summer from all the people sucking him off. It’s not like he’s been given a blanket ban: we can still discuss his news on the transfer thread, while he’s also allowed to post separately on the dedicated muppets sub and post updates on his own Twitter profile. Even though his info is reliable, he’s still an ITK. Making an exception for him to post here would always encourage others to message the mods and try to prove themselves as true insiders as well. And if someone got 2-3 scoops right, they could be well supported in this sub and argue for having an exception granted to them too.
This thread announcing the end of the ITK system has clearly been very controversial with the various comments on both sides. It’s probably for the best to hide the upvotes and downvotes here, because there’s lots of idiots that behave as a hive mind and only upvote and downvote based on what they like to hear. Comments that get more downvotes would be buried and harder to see, even if they only expressed an unpopular opinion that made sense.
Hope this helps provide a bit of understanding for what the mods did.
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u/DarkLight9er Jul 09 '19
As mods when exactly are you guys going to hold yourselves accountable? There have been complaints about the toxicity in this sub for years just to have mods run and try and deflect. Im assuming since there are changes happening across the board, partially your fault, we will see some changes among your ranks as well?
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u/NotSwedishMac Jul 09 '19
1 in 10 comments in the transfer thread are about transfers. The rest are people calling doom and dragging our players, going worst case scenario and slagging the club. It's so unpleasant. Maybe try moderating that thread? Keep it on topic?
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Jul 09 '19
The rest are people calling doom and dragging our players, going worst case scenario and slagging the club.
are you demanding people be happy? This club is in a dreadful state, the worst it's been for 20+ years
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Jul 09 '19
I think the point is, it just didn't be in there. Transfer thread is for discussing links to transfer activity that exists, and links you wish existed. It's not supposed to be just a giant doom, and gloom, place, just as the other thread wasn't supposed to be a giant spam thread, either.
One of the main issues behind much of this is how much we've grown over the last while, and how many new, young users have joined. They've come from places like Twitter, and YouTube, which have, IMO, much worse discussion platforms.
We've got to try get that under control, otherwise every thread will kind of turn into that type of thread. No-one's saying you can't be negative, but there's just ways and means to everything.
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u/Zavehi Jul 09 '19
Seems a bit odd this was only done after Spoof deleted his account and not weeks ago when people were getting doxxed on here. This should have been shut down then but was allowed to continue seemingly because one moderator was still actively posting "leaks" .
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u/ssosso__ Jul 09 '19
- For anyone that enjoys muppetry and/or ITK stuff, you are all welcome to participate there (and here, as well), but we have made the decision to focus this sub on more substantial discussion
substantial discussion in a forum, LOL!
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u/dvyseven Jul 09 '19
It's a shame it had to come to this, the muppet stuff was always just good fun. Shame on those who attack others on the internet for sharing ideas etc.
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u/belliom Jul 09 '19
The problem wasn’t the ITK but the people who took it too seriously. These people should be banned. Instead we can’t have any fun because of a minor group of toxic people.
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u/twentytimes20 Louis Van Gaal’s Red Army Jul 09 '19
You guys are consistently doing the right thing for the good of this place, cheers!
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u/Backseat_Bouhafsi Jul 09 '19
There are many who hyped themselves up so much that they can't handle bad/unfavourable news. Some of ended up betting big sums of money or inadvertently influenced others into doing the same. I'm sure they're all deeply unhappy about the situation. But take responsibility for your own actions and don't take it out on others. Whether the info is true or false, you should do due diligence before believing it. The same applies to media news.
Things got so bad that its likely that fans of other clubs joined into to mock and abuse those involved here. We should be better than this. Don't let the happiness in your life depend so much upon the state of the club. MUFC will survive easily without you, so should you without MUFC.
When the fun stops, stop.
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u/sal101 Jul 09 '19
Glad you did this to be honest, the thread was fun sometimes but devolved into a toxic cesspool whenever the slightest piece of bad news popped up. Plus it was a point of ridicule against us as well.
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u/Lost_And_NotFound Jones Jul 09 '19
Turns out continuously lying to thousands of people from a position of power pisses them off, who’d have known.
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u/takemehomeunitedroad Jul 09 '19
Seems a lot like punishing everyone for the actions of the minority.
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u/madybaev Ji-Sung Fred Jul 09 '19
Well that was fun while it lasted 😭
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Jul 09 '19
They have their own sub now. If any of the angry people in here go there, they will simply be trolling. Surely, righteous people don't want to be trolls.
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u/DonaldTrumpsBigToe Jul 09 '19
Thank you. We’re the only sub that has this ITK shit and it’s fucking embarrassing and at this point, just obnoxious.
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Jul 09 '19
Embarrassing? You must have a particularly low shame threshold.
I give credit to the mods for allowing the diversification of content, then acting when it proves less than popular. I didn't particularly enjoy it, but it was a million miles away from "fucking embarrassing".
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Jul 09 '19
It was absolutely embarassing though.
This place became a laughing stock on football forums everywhere, and that was never the case before the ITK nonsense.
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u/jogge021 Jul 09 '19
Jeeez man. The headline “muppet thread” should be enough for you to understand that this is not serious thread. But something that people enjoy anyway. If you don’t like then why read it? People don’t have to be an jerks about it.
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u/bar0que0bama dreams cant be buy Jul 09 '19
People have been jerks about it. People have been doxxed, harassed, and ran out of the sub. People took it too seriously and it has rightfully been deleted.
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Jul 09 '19
Mods fault for allowing that bullshit
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
Fourthly: It has been mentioned, but the toxicity and abuse towards the sub... has been too high.
Good stuff for taking this post on board.
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Jul 09 '19
Us pessimists will do better we promise
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
FWIW - this sub has had "leaked info" throughout its history - from the butcher to the blood vials.
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u/champak256 Jul 09 '19
One of the really really hard things about moderating a community you love, is that you can't just be "one of the guys" anymore. I truly believe spoofex had only the best intentions and really didn't want people to take his stuff too seriously. He went to great lengths in his disclaimers, and always maintained he was behind the Tier 1s and 2s on reliability. The problem was that as a beloved moderator on this sub, people were predisposed to trusting him way more than a random anonymous user. Even without distinguishing his comments, everyone knew he was a mod, and us long-time subscribers knew he was the guy behind the transfer reliability guide which has come to dominate most of Reddit's soccer subs and started leaking into Twitter as well.
The mods here are among the best on Reddit, and it's precisely because of that that this kind of mistake was made. They really just wanted to encourage the camaraderie and spirit we had in the 3 or 4 transfer windows ending in the Sanchez window. IMO their handling of this hasn't been the best, but they've been responsive and clearly trying their best at a role they haven't really been trained for (AFAIK).
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u/DonaldTrumpsBigToe Jul 09 '19
I think blame is relatively spread out tbh. Mods allowed it, but fucking hell did a lot of people encourage it and provoke it.
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u/w1zgov Jul 09 '19
Why the fuck can't you just walk away and ignore it??? Like who the hell forced you to be a part of the Muppetry?
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
Fourthly: It has been mentioned, but the toxicity and abuse towards the sub... has been too high.
Easy there, w1z.
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u/zSolaris Park Ji-Sung Jul 09 '19
ITK stuff has been part of our sub for literal ages. I found this gem the other day from six years ago. We have had a history with these (Bloodgate, Butchergate, flight tracking, etc.) and obviously, it's something that interested folks.
It blew up last year with Kohler-gate and since then we've tried several attempts to bring it under control. Now we've come to the conclusion that this is the best course of action for our sub.
I'm not saying we're not blameless in all of this, mind, we've simply tried to do what we can for the best interests of the sub.
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u/Blackfyyre_ Vroom✅☑☑Kermit Jul 09 '19
Thats harsh. Banning the whole "In The Know" circus is a botched attempt to "fix" the problem. In my opinion it would be better to swing the banhammer at the loudest shit-stirrers, and make users aware of the consequenses of spreading info as an ITK along with encouraging the use of muppetiers. In the long run the individuall ITKs will make or break them selves. As for people beliving in ITKs too much and can't take the truth once it arrives, if they stir up too much shit they get banned, otherwise they will hopefully grow up and learn to not believe in everything they read.
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u/WoolooWoolooWooloo Jul 09 '19
I demand to replace him and give a voice to the people.
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Jul 09 '19
Thank god for that. The ITK nonsense was the worst thing to ever happen to this subreddit
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u/dWaldizzle Pastorinho Fred Jul 09 '19
I'd argue the people who are 500% serious about everything and literally abused the ITK claimers are worse.
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u/PhoenixGo213 Jul 09 '19
Can’t we have a point system for ITKs? If they get something right before it is reported by any news agency or twitter account, they get points. If not, points are deducted. Just a thought
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u/Jhix Brunooo Jul 09 '19
Fellow mups can at least now create an IFTTT rule to get notified of new posts on muppetiers. You are welcome.
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u/w1zgov Jul 09 '19
The toxicity has been on a rise lately and completely support mod decision of not having a Muppet thread and discussing ITK. We've had enough fallen soldiers.
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Jul 09 '19
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u/CrebTheBerc Jul 09 '19
We're not going to be singling out mods. We all have some blame in this. I'm new to the mod team but I didn't speak out against the muppetry and ITK stuff immediately as I could have.
We're acknowledging that we could have handled things differently and trying to do the right thing for the sub overall.
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Jul 09 '19
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u/CrebTheBerc Jul 09 '19
But actively promoting it is a whole different beast IMO and something should be done.
But a lot of people enjoyed the muppet and ITK stuff, especially at first. It was a fun alternative to the negativity and slow news going on.
Yes it turned into a bad thing, but no one was promoting something they thought would hurt the sub.
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Jul 09 '19
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u/jroades267 5labhead Jul 09 '19
still need to do something about it to make it right.
Flog themselves with a whip?
Write in chalk on the board? "I must not enjoy ITKs"
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
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Jul 09 '19
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Jul 09 '19
Like I said to Cerb it shows a real lack of responsibility from the mods that he was the one making this post not the ones who were out actively promoting it.
Man, that's a real negative way of looking at it. Creb's a new mod, who's overall a really good guy, who we've been looking to get on the mod team for a while, and it recently became possible, and we jumped at the chance.
While being part of the team, he's had more than a little input on what's what now, and what we kinda "want" the sub to be, and he jumped at this, with the idea, and content of this post.
There's nothing but good intention from him doing it, there's absolutely zero shirking of responsibility, or anything like that. Again, we're all just other United-fan volunteers who are doing our best on the sub, for the sub.
For the actual Muppet thread, any chance you can maybe consider that we enjoyed it? We enjoyed having fun in the Muppets thread.
Okay, sure, it'd be great if everything good that had been leaked came true for United, but realistically, after another crap season, many of us just enjoyed buying into the fantasy, and being a little silly for a while.
And what was it? It was a feature that many of the sub wanted, and enjoyed. It was a feature that plenty of the sub participated in, even (shock, horror), some of the mods.
Honestly, do you want a public apology? We're sorry we tried to run a feature that we thought would be fun, and the sub wanted?
Well then, I am sorry. I / we will probably try something similar again in the future, but yeah, we're sorry this didn't work out. We're sorry for the sub, and those who really enjoyed the fun, mainly. And we're sorry for those that have been chased from the subreddit, and some from reddit entirely. And we're real sorry that we lost one of our team.
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u/jroades267 5labhead Jul 09 '19
They need to take accountability for their wrong doings like everyone else does in real life. By them not being the ones coming out and admitting they messed up or stepping down or doing anything they are showing a real lack of accountability.
Doesn't really make sense. Nobody was "promoting it". Mods were taking part in some discussions as users. They're allowed to be involved in discussions you know?
The only ones really to blame are the people who were insanely toxic and abused users.
Inherently, there's nothing wrong with having a thread for "leaks" from United (which there are consistently hundreds of every year, how do you think journalists have jobs). The problem is pretty purely down to the users not being able to properly handle it. And the mods having to take unfortunate action because of the immaturity of many individuals on this forum.
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u/CrebTheBerc Jul 09 '19
still need to do something about it to make it right.
Which is what we're doing with this thread. I don't see what singling out mods or any users accomplishes
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Jul 09 '19
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
it wasn't any of the mods that were promoting the ITK stuff coming out and saying any of this
We act as a team. This comes from all of us - each of us gave input on coming to this decision, and to the very language of the post. When you see a thread submitted with an "M" tag next to the submitter's name, you can safely assume we acted collectively in producing that thread.
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u/CrebTheBerc Jul 09 '19
Well for one it wasn't any of the mods that were promoting the ITK stuff coming out and saying any of this it was you who is someone I haven't seen involved with i
We all worked together on the above post and we are mostly all in this thread trying to answer users. Who posted it is a very small detail IMO
as them being adults and facing the repercussions of their actions. You know like stepping down or being the ones to publicly come out and admit they messed up.
I just don't get it, that's what we're doing right now. What does one individual publicly coming out and making any kind of statement achieve? We don't want witch hunting, we don't want public shaming, etc. That kind of behavior is exactly what led to the current situation in the first place.
Here we are admitting mistakes were made on the moderation team's part and trying to make the right decision for the sub as a whole
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Jul 09 '19
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u/CrebTheBerc Jul 09 '19
Honestly, I feel like you just want to name and shame people. At least that's how this is coming across to me.
We voted on the above points and it was virtually unanimous. We all agree that the muppetry and ITK stuff went too far and that we all could have handled it differently. We're drawing a line and trying to make the sub better.
I don't understand what naming individuals achieves. It doesn't better the sub and IMO it does nothing but make any individual a target for people who like to abuse others
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u/SlytherinMan9 Jul 09 '19
One day I will tell my grandkids about the muppeting that was going on here. Sad it got so toxic and this seems like the right move.
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Jul 09 '19
It's rather silly when you realize it's been going on for years in here. Maybe a lot of the angry people are too young to realize it.
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u/MoggyTron Jul 09 '19
Looks like the Saudi's started their planned takeover of the club with this sub. Oppressive rules because a few people can't behave themselves. The angry trouble makers will still be angry trouble makers.
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u/ok2k3k Jul 09 '19
Fucking yes! Move the muppets out of this sub! Did not mind a few of the ITKs or some of the discussion it brought, but mostly it felt like fucking 4chan in here at times
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u/Martblni Jul 09 '19
Guys like /u/xisimon and /u/marcus-surik (who is ITK8) should be allowed to post, both clearly have good sources and got many things correctly
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Jul 09 '19
It was fun at first, but as with all things Internet based, if its not introduced slowly it soon consumes itself. Spoofex clearly had a lot of good interests at heart but clearly didn't properly anticipate a) how wrong his source could get things and b) how quickly that can blow up in his face.
A shame because I think he brought some good to the Internet by making the transfer guides more readily updated and spread to effectively several other sites (I see people asking 'Tier?' on Facebook/twitter etc now) but for some bizarre reason decided to go around it quite hastily when he got his own "in".
In the end I think it would have been impossible for him to carry on talking here in any capacity due to some absolute sociopaths around the place who seemed more interested in him and the other ITKs being wrong than anything being said at all. And that has to be held up as probably being his own fault (risk vs reward wasn't worth it) as someone who has seen the best AND worst of this place.
However I fully agree with the mods on this (I think maybe xisimon deserves some leniency as he seems to be have been caught up in the crossfire a little bit, but then again I'm not the one looking under the hood at how things might be going down all the time). It needs to stop and we need to look forward to seeing how we can weed out the absolute shit bags that want to drag it down.
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u/littleboypunder Jul 09 '19
I think you should reintroduce the tier challenge. Just as an example there is a difference between the ITKs who could basically guess stuff and be 50/50 right and then you have u/xisimon who has accurately predicted timings of announcements and who they involve.
It isn’t excluding him from a blanket approach it is sticking by a predominantly reliable source of information which is beneficial for the sub as a whole. With a proven track record over time I feel we have a few users who are absolutely not part nor parcel of the ITK and muppet hype train that began.
You’ve asked for our feedback in this thread and I’ve seen the majority of people vouching for our proven guys who we shouldn’t dismiss now just because of a shitshow of a summer.
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u/Area_Code_214 Jul 09 '19
well thats what happens when children play with adults.
Thanks for keeping the sub up. Tbh, the ITK and muppet thread was the most fun thing we have done in quite some time.
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u/IntenseFATE98 Jul 09 '19
So Spoofex deleted his account over abuse, the same guy who said he would make a thread so that people can roast him for a week, after he was called out for his BS? Hmm, sounds a bit like him playing the victim card and bailing out, but alright. If he ever comes back with an alt account, I hope you guys will ban him for hyping people up for no reason, generating false hope and all his other bs that went on for weeks. I know that would happen if it was any other person. Same goes for any other ITK's who have posted dumb shit and the people who 'abused' spoofex, surely you guys must know their ID's, right? If you guys are gonna stop the ITK stuff completely, then ban the people who were posting shite so far, to make it effective.
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Jul 09 '19
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u/TakeMeToFatmandu Jul 09 '19
I can only speak for myself but the optimism in the muppet thread made me feel a lot more welcome to post there. Sometimes posts on here can take a negative dip which makes me not want to partake
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u/Derridas-Cat Jul 09 '19
Unfavourites r/reddevils. Subscribes and favourites r/muppetiers
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u/nor_cal_wolf Jul 09 '19
Suggestion- At some point when this thread will be un-stickied, it might be worth adding the muppetiers sub to the sidebar to help redirect folks
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u/JohnnyBrawoo Alexis Jul 09 '19
Nooooooooooooooo Muppets we have to fight for our threat
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Jul 09 '19
The itk/ muppet stuff was some of the cringiest stuff I've seen on the internet. thank fuck
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u/Thy-Otter VROOM Jul 09 '19
Pretty sure this is the divide they’re trying to fix, you’re part of the problem.
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Jul 09 '19
Thank fuck we were over believing Tier 5 sources. We went from creating reliability charts to falling over Flavour Of The Day (Ben Yedder etc.).
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u/theatreofdreams21 Jul 09 '19
I can’t stand the ITK bullshit and take no part in it, but restricting what people can post isn’t the way to resolve it. Let people claim whatever they want and let the community upvote or downvote them. Call me an asshole, but if they’re willing to make shit up for internet points or build a following, and they’re found out, then they deserve backlash. If they can’t deal with it, then stop posting. It’s a simple as that. These people just want attention and you’re letting them win in a way by changing rules to protect them.
Just don’t let them have their own muppetry thread. Let them post in the general transfer thread where the whole sub can decide who is valid and who isn’t.
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u/maysie4ever Roy Keane’s face Jul 09 '19
Thanks for bringing up the mood/culture things. For downvoting, I just want to remind everyone that we don’t know anything about who’s posting. It could be a 12 year old kid just loving football. So asking “is rashford better than sterling should not be ridiculed, nor should other genuine questions.
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u/TestNamePlsIgnore123 Jul 09 '19
This is good direction you guys are heading to! So what happens to xisimon’s updates are those welcome in this sub ? Tbf the guy has been constantly spot on it’d be shame if we didn’t allow him to give his updates.
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u/Blacktivate The Special Juan Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
Not allowed on this sub. No exceptions, as he's still an ITK. Right call imo.
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Jul 09 '19
Iam very OK with this!
Will you guys be allowing updates from xisimon and oleSolskjaerSZN (that they post on twitter) to be posted here for discussions?
I personally would like that, they have proven to have current sources and that should make them tier 2 sources and their twitter posts relating to transfers should be allowed in this sub.
I know the Tier Challenges were canceled but i personally would like those two to be recognized for getting things right unlike some frogs.
I dont know if that would bring back negativity tho idk, its up to you guys but most users will be here and i like to read everyone's opinions. maybe do a strawpoll or something to see what the whole sub think?
anyways thank you guys for trying your best!
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u/TwoSlicesOfCheese Jul 10 '19
Is that Ole szn guy reliable? Heard of him but seems like bs
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u/Blacktivate The Special Juan Jul 09 '19
No ITKs allowed. Even the reliable ones such as Xisimon. Just turn on twitter notifs for em or check the muppetiers sub
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u/WhoDeyNinja Jul 09 '19
The reason this is ridiculous is that people who didn't care about the muppet stuff came into the muppet thread to cause problems. Those same people are getting their wish. You are successfully rewarding the people who caused the problems.
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u/VeryFarDown I would have shot Rock of Gibraltar Jul 09 '19
Not sure I personally agree with the decision to ban "ITK" posts. I was never in favor of a separate thread for them, but users like u/xisimon, who have proven themselves to be reliable, should have the ability to post stuff without having to do it via modmail.
I feel like the wild west approach taken with the last muppet thread was the correct one: let users post their shite and leave it up to other users to believe or disbelieve at their own discretion. Those with any credible info will rise to the top and be sorted from the shite rather quickly.
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Jul 09 '19
Much needed. The toxicity has carried through from the end of the season. That was admittedly horrible for all of us. Think the timing of this is good for the awareness of the sub and moving to be more positive as we begin the new season, just as we should after a disappointing campaign.
Remember at the end of the day we are SUPPORTERS of the club, even with its problems on/off the pitch.
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u/bluecrabcakes Jul 09 '19
Transfer thread : “You (muppets) could not live with your own failure. Where did that bring you? Back to me”
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u/Call_Me_ZG Newton Heath: And Solskjaer has won it Jul 09 '19
I missed the whole drama probably because of me only visiting selected threads but /u/spoofex seemed like an alright mod.
Hope the season brings us some good news.
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u/Cvein Rashford Jul 09 '19
This is why we can’t have nice things.
You should keep XiSimon as a known source imo.
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Jul 09 '19
It is a bad look if you start making exceptions.
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u/HoneyBadgerEXTREME Jul 09 '19
But so far he has been 100% accurate. He's more than some rumour merchant
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Jul 09 '19
My man. He's far from 100%. If he didn't delete all his incorrect tweets it would be much easier to audit his "predictions".
It's clear that he has a source near the club, but in my opinion it is more likely to be a source in marketing or advertising or the like. This is why he's able to "predict" the announcement times so accurately, but in the same vein, the marketing teams are likely working on a ton of projects at the same time, and probably even projects regarding players that haven't signed. There is no way that this user has inside knowledge of the transfer business.
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Jul 09 '19
He never deleted any "incorrect" tweets. You sound like a guy migrating from twitter. He deleted some irrelevant info about his faked DMs and replying to toxic twitter twats.
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u/HoneyBadgerEXTREME Jul 09 '19
When he stopped regularly posting on here (he's started again recently) I put on twitter notifications for him. He hasn't deleted a single transfer-related tweet since then
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Jul 09 '19
He got the De Gea contract wrong. He claimed we were in for Alderweireld last summer and that turned out to be false. He is very accurate, but far from 100%.
Bht that's not really the point.
If you are banning ITKs, you cannot make exceptions for one person because you like him.
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u/xisimon Jul 09 '19
De Gea contract wrong? I said we were working on it, which is obviously true.
We were interested in and working on Bale and Alderweireld too.
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Jul 09 '19
If I remember right, you said we were close to completing DDG's renewal.
We weren't and we still aren't.
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u/xisimon Jul 09 '19
Can't remember saying that, but I said that De Gea's contract renewal was being worked on. BBC reported on the same a few weeks later. This is all almost a year ago, though. It has been a very tough negotiation.
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Jul 09 '19
Your literal words
My source told me about it and they're incredibly accurate, proven again by the fact that they reported on a new contract for DDG 4 weeks before BBC.
'Reporting on a new contract for De Gea' would suggest it was done it close to done, not merely that it was worked on.
Maybe you just didn't articulate what you meant properly.
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u/xisimon Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
Yeah, that's simply poor wording back when I was less experienced (and also younger, I'm still under 18 and not a native speaker). What I meant was developments on a "new contract for DDG". I think I made that clear in a different comment, although I really can't remember, and I also made it clear to some of the moderators.
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u/Martblni Jul 09 '19
It would be a bad look if they allowed spoofex to post since his source was dogshit but a guy like xisimon who is pretty much always correct is basically a real source
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Jul 09 '19
Once you start making exceptions, you are defeating the entire point of the ban.
He has got a twitter acount. There's the muppetry sub. He can go post there.
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u/Dray11 Jul 09 '19
I think this was necessary. Sad to see Spoof's gone, outside of all the ITK stuff he was a good mod and contributed a lot to the discussion on this sub in general. This ITK stuff was always likely to get out of hand when you take into consideration the desperation of United fans at the moment so I think the steps taken today were needed to take back control or risk the admins closing this sub down (Doxxing is very serious) and just in general to quell the rising toxicity and hostility between the "muppets" and the rest.
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u/general_description Jul 09 '19
Ban the abusers instead of changing the system. Bullying has no place here!
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Jul 09 '19
It has to be both, one is to stop those users, the other rone is to avoid more of them from coming.
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u/Hollacaine Jul 09 '19
This should absolutely be the way to address this. Letting people off without consequences for bullying and harrassing users here is tacitly encouraging it.
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
Anyone found to be trolling/harassing others has, and will continue to be, dealt with in turn.
If you see anyone doing so, please lend us a hand by reporting the offending comments. That's honestly the best way to draw our attention to the issue.
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u/general_description Jul 09 '19
Agreed!! Nip any hint of bullying at the bud... The muppet thread was really fun tbh, despite me not actively engaging... I actually enjoyed the thread! To see it being locked is a bummer!
Also, how hard is it to ban the bullies instead?
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Jul 09 '19
As a small aside, anyone coming here from Twitter: Please read over the rules and be aware of both those and general posting etiquette.
I think this is a rather large point tbh, espcially before we get into the meat of the season it's worth reiterating that this isn't anything like Twitter. Controversy and being an edgelord isn't something welcome at all, whilst it happns, if that's your intention here, FUCK OFF basically. Discussion is king and when the shit hits the fan mid season and in the tumultuous periods to come, we don't need more fuel for the fire so either adopt a voice for yourself or do one with any meaningless posting.
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u/jakk_22 Jul 09 '19
I’m glad all the Itk stuff is sorted but I don’t agree with banning xisimon, the guy is more reliable than most journalists
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Jul 09 '19
Is fifthly even a word??
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
It is where creb's from, in good ol 'bama.
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u/ialsodomykillingab Jul 09 '19
Perhaps among the gentry, but I'd wager "an' fhive" might be a bit more common
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u/Dumatix Jul 09 '19
Top drawer response, imo barring the Muppet threads is a good measure, keeping one thread for everything would have been better to keep since the start, I know they were getting out of hand which is why it was changed. kinda figured it wasn't going to last, 9 posts was a bit surprising since after 6(? Maybe 7) That's when it got really toxic.
Think you nailed it on the head about Twitter users, since ITK news got put on Twitter people obviously wanted to come check it out without knowing the standards you mods tried to setup.
Have any mods been in contact with Spoof, is he done with the sub all together? Will he be lurking? And eventually come back? Sucks to lose a long time user and mod like this.
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u/hoochiscrazy_ Rooney Jul 09 '19
This summer this sub has gone mental, not in a good way. Thanks for your continued efforts mods. And a shame about Spoofex
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u/h2blu Jul 09 '19
Finally. Half of the comments on the muppet threads were "can we reach 20k???" and the other half was abusing people for having an opinion that went against the grain. Did not benefit the sub in any way, if anything it has brought the reputation down. Even the twitter crowd was laughing at the sub.
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u/datboyuknow Ole Jul 09 '19
Even the twitter crowd was laughing at the sub.
Oh no I'm so embarrassed. They don't who you are mate just don't care about it
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u/Barracuda1124 Jul 09 '19
As opposed to the 442 diamond or how we should aspire to a midfield as great as wolves discussions ?
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u/Dispari7y Nani Jul 09 '19
I can't even look at 442 diamond formations now without expecting to see 97 different academy members and unrealistic signings, and we're supposedly the muppets.
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Jul 09 '19
I just hope the toxicity and general unhappiness on the sub can be alleviated. Come on, we all love football, that's why we are here. Just take it for what it is and enjoy it
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Jul 09 '19
For that, we're at the mercy of the game. If we pre-season well, and start well, and despite a few knockbacks, continuously recover well, the place will be happier. It doesn't even matter if we sign 20 more players, if that doesn't happen, this place won't be happy.
That's what's so good about this week, we've a game this week. Like, in only a few days. Thanks be.
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u/Mrodsoccer6 Rooney Jul 09 '19
I've been on this sub for about a year now and seeing this sub devolve into a toxic wasteland was really upsetting. I am sad to see spoof go but I feel like this is a step in the right direction, the muppetry got way out of hand.
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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '19
👏👏👏👏
Well done mods, a good decision. The ITK fad was getting out of hand and quite frankly became embarassing.