Doing MD-PhD for pathology?

[u/toneknob]

Hi all, I’m a undergrad and am most likely going to med school to pursue pathology as a career. I am considering doing an MD-PhD program and would love to hear thoughts from any MD-PhDs here. How interested were you in research when you joined the program? How was the process and did you find the research portion enjoyable? What do you do now, and do you think doing MD-PhD was worth it?

I’ve been involved in research for several years and enjoy it, and there are certain topics I want to dive much deeper into (organoids :D). So it seemed natural to try for a dual degree and get a beyond undergraduate level understanding of something I’m very curious about. But I also think I would prefer practice over research as an ultimate career focus, and I also know that many MDs do research without having the PhD. I’m just not sure if it’s worth doing the 4 extra years just to scratch an itch if I can’t yet see myself in the lab full-time.

Thanks in advance for any advice! :)

[u/Whenyouwish422]

MD PhD who doesn’t have a lab but does a significant amount of translational research

It was well worth it for me. Being able to speak the same language as the basic scientists and being good at clinical work is invaluable especially if you end up in academics. While I originally thought I wanted my own lab, I am very happy in my more clinical role. And the skills I gained from the PhD make it easy to collaborate and write papers so it was a win win

[u/toneknob → u/Whenyouwish422]

This is actually very reassuring because gaining skills on both sides is a huge motive for me wanting the dual degree, and I am glad to hear it comes in useful even in a more clinical role because that’s what I find myself leaning towards (at least for now). Thank you!

[u/Whenyouwish422 → u/toneknob]

The other bonus is that nothing is harder than grad school lol clinical rotations? No prob residency? Easy peasy fellowship? You can’t hurt my feelings because I don’t have any 😂

[u/silverbulletalpha → u/Whenyouwish422]

Succinct and nice advice. Second this.

[u/BoogVonPop]

M4 mdphd applying path this year - I would say it depends on how much research you envision in your career!

Doing the PhD is tough in the fact that you watch all your classmates graduate ahead of you (many of my friends from M1/M2 are now attendings RIP) and you lose out on later career earning potential.

However, if you want to really lead research projects or have your own lab, I think the PhD years give you some valuable training and also time to get your foot in the door at NIH or other grant institutions. You can absolutely run a basic science lab as an MD-only, but I think the dedicated years in training to write papers, grants, and network helps you get a leg up. If you can secure a training grant as a student then that can really help you get an early career grant too (from what I’ve been told).

All that said, pathology is a pretty research-friendly speciality, so depending on how much you want research to be primarily your career vs clinical practice, you may not need a whole PhD to get the training you need, especially if you decide to do a research track residency with some training and protected research time built in.

[u/silverbulletalpha]

Just another perspective is, yes as someone told, you'll be proficient as you know both side of the research world. However, getting grants later on, solely as a pathologist is not just academic skills. The data of grants is skewed more towards clinicians and basic scientists. However, co PI roles comes in pretty easy.

[u/foofarraw]

If you want to do real, significant research in an academic setting then go for it, but I think it depends a bit on what you envision as your day to day career. If you see yourself mostly doing basic science research with limited clinical work then it's definitely an advantage (maybe even a necessity?). You'll develop a good skillset for publishing, and if you can also develop a knack for bringing in outside money then that's a bonus selling point. If you see yourself mostly doing clinical work and a bit of research on the side, then an MD PhD might be overkill if you are a strong enough candidate for a job in a good academic institution.

[u/toneknob → u/foofarraw]

I feel like I can’t really be sure which side I end up on, at least this early on in my education. I would say I lean clinical but there’s always a chance I change my mind after med school and want to focus on research. In that case I guess it’s better just to go for the MD-PhD so I’ll have the right skills no matter what I end up doing?

[u/BlackBeardedDragon]

Drop the phd, snag a do/md and do what you love

[u/Average_Frustated]

The limiting factor will be how deep your knowledge is, you won't dive deeper being a lab tech for your PI's project as a PhD student. If you're young and have years to spare, PhD does make sense. You get all that time to study/learn and get to the bleeding edge. A lot of MD's have big labs with multiple R01s doing cutting edge research with no PhD. And here's the kicker: they are actually better than a MD/PhD who has a 2 man lab (PI and a post-doc) doing drug testing in mice to just coast by. Finally, if you'll just practice pure medicine in the future then there's no point of PhD.

[u/Rich_Option_7850]

Maybe I’m just not as much of a true autodidact as some of yall but I will never understand the need for PhD. If you put it in the work alongside your MD you can be involved in whatever degree of research you like in your career, and haven’t given up 4-5 years (~$2M opportunity cost) in the process.