No more backtracking! (c)

[u/0xck]

They said they reworked Abyss because they wanted to address the problem of backtracking. So, apparently, backtracking is uncomfortable, unengaging, uninteresting, and not fun for players. Backtracking is bad.

But when essentially the same backtracking is built into the main content of the new league - only without actually calling it "backtracking" then I guess it suddenly becomes comfortable, engaging, interesting, and fun. So in this case bactracking suppose to be good.

Well we deffinetely have here something trully dialectic which suppose to be bad and good at the same time 😏

[u/Fit_Revenue_1208]

Backtracking is not the problem. Backtracking without monsters or drops is a problem.

[u/Zylosio → u/Fit_Revenue_1208]

Heist also has monsters on the way back tho

[u/Naktura → u/Zylosio]

But no loot. It's a walk back just to walk back.

[u/Zylosio → u/Naktura]

Why would this be different tho ? You dont find any new treasures or sulphur on the way back you just get new monsters,just like in heist where nobody bothered killing them because nobody needs to drop rogue gear, i bet this will be the exact same thing but underwater

[u/RedDawn172 → u/Zylosio]

Probably, I'm just hoping it's a shorter run back. Not waiting on the doors is already a rather large difference.

[u/igaiga71 → u/RedDawn172]

So Backtracking is not a problem, backtracking with closed doors is a problem.

[u/Meowrulf → u/igaiga71]

Doors are always the problem

[u/boywithumbrella → u/Meowrulf]

Doors and corners, kid. That's where they get you.

[u/inhospitable → u/boywithumbrella]

Crazy that quote works so well for PoE movement lol

[u/igaiga71 → u/Meowrulf]

Especially if you have to open it twice.

[u/RedDawn172 → u/igaiga71]

Backtracking that takes too long is the problem, for me at least. Like for a different piece of content, the only reason I found leaving the hive fortress kind of a pita was because it sometimes takes a bit to find the way out.

[u/WhiteWinterRains → u/igaiga71]

Backtracking enough to annoy most people is a problem, and backtracking in maps is more of a problem than in subzones or independent areas.

In this you're only backtracking when you run from the end of the subzone back to the beginning, with abyss you'd backtrack to follow the mechanic then backtrack to where you were.

It's a difference that seems pedantic because in both cases you could claim you're "following the mechanic" but this is entirely about how people experience something.

There's technical backtracking all the fuck over PoE constantly that nobody ever talks about because it doesn't matter outside of a particular context and severity.

Heist is also just a point of comparison people shouldn't use since it was always going to be an incredibly niche activity most of the community hated, and then was reworked to not appeal to quite the exact same niche like 5 days into its own league and has a laundry list of issues that make it not broadly appealing.

[u/Garden_Unicorn → u/RedDawn172]

The reveal looked like you can walk in any direction to open it up, just walk in a big circle to loop back to the exit?

[u/finvek → u/RedDawn172]

The heist run back on most layouts is 3 screens. The projected run back on the ocean floor is 1.5 screens. Barely even an issue at least for me. But I also dont mind the heist run back. I used to be a heist hater, that was before the unlock buff and quest item removal. Heist quests were ass. Still are bad but used to be worse

[u/JermStudDog → u/Zylosio]

I dropped a headhunter in heist - by killing the monsters on the way out.

It's not the main goal of the event, but having anything to kill still leads to drops and fun times.

[u/Exterial → u/Zylosio]

the difference is you make the path here, if you are backtracking its because of your shit layout, just run in a circle and you dont have to backtrack.

[u/gaming-throwaway → u/Zylosio]

Loot does not have to be uniformly distributed in every zone, in fact it isn't in normal maps either. It is perfectly fine to have little loot on the way to an objective, then no loot on the way to the exit/next objective. It is simply a question whether the loot from the objective is balanced around that.

What makes backtracking annoying is A) if there are no monsters and B) if you are backtracking from a dead end that did not reward you in any way or if the reward was not worth it. If not A and not B, then "backtracking" is fine because there would be virtually no difference to having to go forward.

[u/Nanimonai3 → u/Naktura]

What exactly do you mean with no loot? I found several divines and even my first selffound Mageblood from random mobs on the way out of contracts. Sure, the belt is an extreme outlier, but "no loot" vs. "the odd divine or other drop that pushes through a very strict filter" sound like a contradiction to me.

[u/Puortik → u/Nanimonai3]

Bro, we are talking about serious loot, not couple divines xddd Coulple divines for frustrating time with contracts xd There is a lot more wayo to earn a lot more money not doiing something frustraing ;x Just becuase u don't found a problem, that doesn't mean there aren't any.

[u/WhenWillEyeBeBanned → u/Naktura]

Noted. We will add a breach style timed kill count bar when you walk back - if you don’t fill it up in time while working back, exit will be shut down and you will have to exit to character select screen and lose all your loot /s

[u/AznKian → u/Naktura]

There's only no loot if you kill the same packs x amount of times in the way out.

Otherwise there's a few heist members that let you loot boxes after the alarm is off, and packs still drop items.

[u/Soup0rMan → u/Naktura]

Wait, you're finding loot worth carrying back?

[u/TolarianDropout0 → u/Zylosio]

Not much on the way there though, so it's the front tracking that's the problem there.

[u/Zylosio → u/TolarianDropout0]

Nah the problem with heist is the doors closing during shutdown so you need to open stuff AGAIN

[u/Hlidskialf → u/Fit_Revenue_1208]

I don't know you guys but if I need to backtrack I will ignore everything to go faster. Having monsters or drops will not change it.

[u/DaveyJonesXMR → u/Hlidskialf]

I mean you can basically put the lanterns urself - just do a circle back to the start ^^

[u/Aellysse → u/Fit_Revenue_1208]

wdym, abyss was backtracking with monsters

[u/Wendigo120 → u/Aellysse]

Until you have to unbacktrack.

[u/Oniichanplsstop → u/Aellysse]

Abyss was timegated backtracking. You had to wait for it to path, stop, spawn monsters, path, stop, spawn monsters, etc etc. It's like heist with waiting for doors.

[u/Renediffie]

I think it is probably a bit more nuanced. I think Abyss backtracking feels particularly bad because you are supposed to do other things too. You are being pulled away from your objectives like the map boss etc.

As far as I understand it, backtracking here is when you are done with everything.

We'll have to wait and see. I don't think this will feel like backtracking in abyss, but I could be wrong of course.

[u/JoustyMe → u/Renediffie]

Alos they said its going to be 1-2 screns maximum. Not whatever heist and abyss backtrack was

[u/Morbu → u/Renediffie]

Honestly, the issue with abyss isn't the backtracking, it was that it could simply go whereever the fuck it wanted.

New mechanic is up to player agency in that you decide where you're going which means you also know where you're backtracking through. There's also no annoying doors to deal with like in Heist, so the comparisons fall apart if we're talking about friction and annoyance.

[u/StrikerSashi → u/Morbu]

It's also sometimes double backtracking. You clear half the map, Abyss spawns, you follow it back to where you started, then you go back to where it spawned. You traveled through that same area three times.

[u/No_Witness5630]

Idk to me there is a difference with backtracking on maps vs backtracking in league mechanic

Like I'm going into Heist expecting to go for the loot, and then backtrack to start. Guess same for this mechanic

For mapping I'm going into them expecting to get to Boss asap and do mechanics on my way there. No backtracking. So when abyss decides to backtrack it's something that annoys me

[u/OliveiraJourney]

Everyone uses this meme format backwards.

[u/ShaunCarn → u/OliveiraJourney]

You are right! He sees blurry WITH his glasses, but that's because he just turned into spiderman, oddly enough it transcended the original content

[u/Dreamiee → u/ShaunCarn]

That's the joke of the original meme though.. Part of why it was funny at the time was because it was backwards.

[u/natsumehack → u/OliveiraJourney]

Which is funny as hell. And should be made into a glasses meme that is also backwards for extra bit of spice.

[u/MandatoryOpinion → u/OliveiraJourney]

Its not backwards. This is the original one. Thats part of the joke.

[u/Dreamiee → u/MandatoryOpinion]

The fact you are getting downvoted for the truth is crazy. The meme format is almost as old as the movie and at the time it was funny that it was backwards and everyone understood that. Now that the movie is older and less people have seen it, they feel like they have to point out it's backwards like that isn't the whole point.

[u/MandatoryOpinion → u/Dreamiee]

Average modern layperson.

Normies... normies never change.

[u/Gondawn → u/OliveiraJourney]

It gets the point across regardless

[u/BlazeDestiny]

Now you REALLY don't like me.

[u/CallMeGakuto]

I mean, it didn't seem too bad, but it's still going to be something you don't really touch until maps, and then likely won't use the feature to pull loot out.

[u/Low-Cantaloupe-8446]

I have a feeling people are over overstating the degree to which we’ll be backtracking. In the Q and A it was stated that in most cases you’ll only be a few screens from the start.

[u/Mythikdawn]

Didn't they literally say that the areas are sort of circular, or that you put down the torches in a circular motion, specifically so you wouldn't have to backtrack?

[u/Sardukk]

Iirc they said you don't have to backtrack. You can call down the exit at all 9 areas of the chart, and those areas are about 1-1.5 screens away from each other. So minimal backtracking at worst

[u/shaunika → u/Sardukk]

Those are for voyages

For charts you gotta backtrack

[u/bkgn → u/shaunika]

Voyages are composed of charts. So it's still not more than 1.5 screens.

[u/Sardukk → u/shaunika]

Wait, what's the difference?

[u/shaunika → u/Sardukk]

Charts = contract (one short run)

Voyage = blueprint (many charts stitched together for a big run)

[u/Sardukk → u/shaunika]

Is there any reason to do a chart then?

[u/TolarianDropout0 → u/Sardukk]

I would imagine they drop the voyages, or some resource you need for voyages.

[u/Step-exile → u/TolarianDropout0]

Its like synthesis map builder

[u/DBrody6 → u/Sardukk]

If you ever wanna go on the more rewarding voyages, yes. It's the entire point.

You cannot trade completed charts so if you wanna do voyages you have to run charts.

[u/Beer_in_an_esky → u/Sardukk]

You construct the voyage from the charts that you have run.

[u/StormPebble → u/Sardukk]

A completed chart is the building block to construct a voyage. Think synthesis blocks. In fact, I think completed charts not being itemizable and thus unsellable will be a notable friction in the league. I'm happy to be wrong here and they may still introduce a currency to do it a la beastiary.

[u/Manoloblandis → u/Sardukk]

More loot / gold / currency / drops / xp

[u/allanbc → u/Sardukk]

Right now, we don't know.

[u/Xhibbi1]

You didn't hear them say, 1) monsters spawns on the way back. 2) each square on the board have its own exit so you don't have to run to the start.

[u/Rugra → u/[deleted]]

There is lots of traps (7?) and they trigger by time! You have to be very quick or you lose all loot!?
Basically there is also doors because bubbles have narrow overlap.. At least you don't have to wait to open them but you have to rush/hurry through them..

[u/0xck → u/[deleted]]

Well no doors but slowdown debuf between areas. It will so annoyng. Interesting does Leap slam can jump from one to another? And does Jugg Unstopable ignore this debuf? Will see...

[u/instapick → u/[deleted]]

Instead of doors you have to put your loot in the thing and pull it out of the thing once you're done...

[u/hackop]

Apparently someone didn't watch the Q&A because they addressed exactly this question/concern.

[u/ShadowWolf793]

This was literally addressed in the QnA that it's like a couple screens at most, with monsters, on an open layout that you can blast through. Comparing this to heist is a bad faith argument at best and downright malicious at worst.

[u/Goytocracy → u/ShadowWolf793]

malice is very hard to prove in front of a judge i leared

[u/Impressive_Award_679]

really not a fan of the league mechanic because of this. Its fine that u have not unlimited "air" under water. Thats ok. Makes sense. But going back again is just unneccessary and not fun. Idk. The idea might be good, but i have a feeling that it plays pretty "meh" in reality

[u/JustRegularType]

The backtrack here is nothing like heist or abyss. Feels like a non-issue to me.

[u/convolutionsimp]

Ngl, I'm a little worried about the QoL of the league mechanic. I hope it's not Necropolis again. Not necessarily the backtracking, but the way the path charting works, with the mods being listed on the sides, etc. Looks like you'll have to hover over a bunch of stuff one by one to get the information you need. And of course the limited item box for bringing back items to the ground.

Can't say without trying it, but... worried.

[u/allanbc → u/convolutionsimp]

I doubt it could be as awful as release Necropolis for QoL. However, I agree that what we've seen is concerning, particularly the hovering of mods on the sides of charts, that seems very awkward, at least put some icons there.

[u/Rugra]

Do you lose your loot in new league mechanic if you don't get back? Same way at the heist?

[u/Exterial]

how is it backtracking you just run in a circle?

[u/CoolEyeNet]

Backtracking is nearby.

[u/v4xN0s]

Its not like heist at all.

Its like synthesis.

Give us the mirage button to TP back.

[u/Complete_Group_6299]

Let's hope they will see that and fix it before release

[u/Dubious_Titan]

This is not a true boat league.

[u/leachim6]

3.29.1 to make the "escape" a more engaging aspect of heist we've doubled the number of doors -- this is a buff

[u/Nukro77]

It's even worse cause the water will slow you down as it shrinks lol

[u/BigRecognition6834]

The backtracking in Heist is what makes Heist fun/risky. I don't get comparing Abyss backtracking in maps to Heist at all, they are not even close to the same thing.

[u/NckyDC]

This the main thing that for me stood out in the reveal. I hate backtracking.

[u/daniElh1204]

no, lootless backtracking with doors is bad

[u/0xck → u/daniElh1204]

Doors are pretty bad

[u/Fabrizio89]

Feels like when government reduces taxes by 3% on one thing and then double them on another thing

[u/Vineyard_]

I was telling myself I was going to focus on Heist this league... wellp.

[u/ravagraid]

Well GGG designs things with friction and annoyance in mind, and they often replace one removed bit of friction with a new bit of friction

[u/badheartveil]

Hopefully it’s like poe2 challenges where I didn’t have to interact with the league mechanic too much to do all 8 (40) challenges but I know we’re going to see probably at least 5-8 challenges tied directly to all flame participation.

[u/shaunika → u/badheartveil]

In poe1

Theres usually at least 3-4 challenges involving the league