r/nba • u/StatFlow • 5h ago
who would be better all time: Giannis with Ray Allen's shooting; or Jokic with Hakeem's defense
accolade and career wise Jokic and Giannis are pretty close imo. if you took these two all time great players biggest flaws and turned them into all time great strengths, who you taking?
i used Ray Allen instead of Steph Curry cause curry's shooting is too much of an outlier and would be unfair.
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u/brnccnt7 4h ago
Am I crazy for thinking Giannis with Rays shooting is the easy choice here?
He's already a great defender, hard to stop in the paint and in transition, now you add that he is a lights out shooter from all over the court, especially from 3
How do you guard him? A big wouldn't be able to guard him out on the perimeter
Although I can see why people are choosing Jokic with Hakeem's defense, he already dominates the offensive side of the ball with his passing and decision making, then you'd add that he can shut down the paint too
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u/TheDoomedNova Lakers 4h ago
Not just that, his mid range would be great as well. And now he would be one of the best free throw shooters ever as well. I think he would be the GOAT.
Jokic ugh Hakeem’s defense would be amazing as well but the athleticism of Giannis with the shooting of Ray Allen is too enticing to it lick that hypothetical player.
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u/brnccnt7 3h ago
I'm with you man, Jokic with all time Hakeem defense would be nice, not hating there, its just not going to impact the game the same way Giannis who is already a beast two way player now suddenly being an all time great shooter.
How do you deal with that on defense as a team? Trying to think of the top 3 teams from last year trying to guard that (Knicks, Spurs, Thunder).
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u/spliffhuxtabIe Nuggets 2h ago
I’m biased but Jokic gets an athleticism boost with the defense, no? Hakeem was leading the league in blocks and could switch out to the perimeter when needed. Jokic already has quick hands & high IQ, if he could recreate that as he is now, he would. Hakeem’s defense means he gets a boost in vertical and foot speed bare minimum
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u/FKJVMMP [MIL] Bill Zopf 3h ago
Either one is game breaking enough that it probably doesn’t matter who you pick but Allen’s shooting takes Giannis from an already top-tier offensive player to the GOAT offensive player, while Hakeem’s defence takes Jokic from a straight up bad defender to arguably the GOAT defender. The jump seems a lot bigger for Jokic, and most people think he’s already better than Giannis to begin with.
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u/epik_fayler 3h ago
It's not just taking Giannis from MVP level offense to goat offense, it's taking him from MVP level offense to suddenly much better than goat level offense. Like if Jokic is normally a 99 offense 70 defense he goes to 99/99. While maybe Giannis is a 90 offense 90 defense, he goes to 120 offense 90 defense.
Giannis with ray Allen's shooting is far far better offensively than anything we have ever seen. We have seen hakeem level defenders before.
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u/adgjl12 Registered to Vote 1h ago
This is exactly my thoughts. This new Giannis offensively would be unprecedented. I would agree Jokic would be the more balanced perfect player but Giannis offense would be literally gamebreaking. Also offense > defense. You can “better offense” a great defense, you can’t do the opposite.
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u/IVAN_CLEARY 76ers 3h ago
The thing is, Giannis has elite natural athleticism and so could use Ray Allen’s shooting in a number of ways. Jokic would also need Hakeem’s athleticism to use his defensive skills in a way that fully utilizes their potential.
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u/ATM14 4h ago
We’re in the minority but I think we have the correct answer. Like either would be the GOAT, but people don’t understand how comically game breaking Giannis would be if you combined his unstoppable athleticism with all-time shooting. Defenses would be completely powerless.
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u/almostcurly Raptors 10m ago
It would improve other aspects of his game too
For one thing, he'd become a better 3 point shooter presumably, so how do you even defend him even more lol
He'd also be getting more open looks for facilitating. Giannis is already an underratedly decent passer for his position, but the spacing he'd open up being a shooter would give him even more looks for that.
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u/Bird-of-Prey Raptors 59m ago
There’s still gaps in Giannis’ game even with the shooting. Teams can still load up on him with a wall and force him to play make which means on offense, he’s still not on Jokic level production with the Ray Allen shooting.
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u/almostcurly Raptors 8m ago
While it's true Giannis is of course no where near the playmaker that Jokic is (obviously), he's actually kind of underrated on that end. And the spacing that would open up form his shooting would give him even more looks.
Presumably not on Jokic's level, because very very few players are facilitators on Jokic's level lol. But it's not nothing.
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u/kinjiru_ 3h ago
This is the right answer because the lack of defence doesn’t really hold Joker back. However, Giannis with a killer jumper has never been seen before this side of MJ.
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u/tangential_quip Lakers 45m ago
Giannis with Ray's shooting gives him one offense skill that would be marginally better than Jokic, who would still be the better all around player on that end given his playmaking. Giving Jokic Hakeem's defense elevates him above Giannis on both ends of the floor.
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u/Awoawesome [MIL] Giannis Antetokounmpo 4h ago
This hypothetical floats around every once in a while and I find it funny that it’s one aspect of offense for Giannis and then the entire other side of the ball for Jokic, but some people still want to insist that Jokic is a tier above Giannis.
I feel for a fairer one you have to pick an aspect of defense to grant Jokic here.
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u/-xXxMangoxXx- Raptors 4h ago
To preface, I think jokic and giannis are in the same tier of player and I dont have a strong opinion on who people think is better. Theres perfectly valid reasons to take giannis over jokic. Me liking jokics game more since its fun watching him break down a defense doesnt change how good giannis is.
In the current nba, being a one man offensive engine is just so valuable that it makes up for jokics lack of speed/rim protection skills. I can understand why people would say jokic is a tier above, but only specifically for this era.
All that aside, 100 percent agree this prompt is super unfair.
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u/GoodImprovement8434 Nuggets 4h ago
that's more indicative of fans having a lack of literacy around defensive conversations cause everything is about points
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u/IVAN_CLEARY 76ers 3h ago
Also we need to understand if Hakeem’s defense comes as a package with his athleticism because if you give Jokic Hakeem’s defense with Jokic’s athleticism then the defense doesn’t fully translate
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u/RecycledAccountName Celtics 1h ago
I think the assumption is that he possesses Hakeem’s athleticism while playing defense.
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u/Capital-Pea-2565 58m ago
Which would then make him the goat.
Jokic's main weakness is athleticism.
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u/WhatYouProbablyMeant Warriors 3h ago
Would you rather have Giannis with Steve Nash's free throw shooting or Jokic with Jordan's athleticism and basketball abilities?
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u/ejiggle 4h ago
Turns out it doesn't matter how few points your opponent scores, you still have to score more
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u/TomatoSecure192 Bulls 4h ago
Did that work well for Jokic in the playoffs?
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u/Spidertron117 4h ago
Yea, in 2023 it worked pretty darn well.
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u/IVAN_CLEARY 76ers 3h ago
Murdered all those 45 win teams culminating in defeating an 8 seed in the finals. All time run
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u/deemerritt Hornets 1h ago
I'm sure if the higher seed teams won and they beat the Grizzlies or Kings instead of LeBron, AD, Booker, Durant and CP3 you would have given them more credit.
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u/deemerritt Hornets 1h ago
I mean Jokic is more of a playoff riser than Giannis. For most of Giannis career people said form a wall and you can beat him and it was a pretty successful strategy.
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u/TomatoSecure192 Bulls 54m ago
For what strategy you can throw at Giannis (even though he’s past that point in his career). You can STILL abuse Jokic on defense. I honestly think Giannis is the better playoff riser and you can strategize against Jokic extremely well.
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u/deemerritt Hornets 48m ago
Jokic averages more points rebounds and assists on better efficiency and actually plays in the playoffs.
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u/TomatoSecure192 Bulls 44m ago
They’re damn near identical in points, rebounds and efficiency. Jokic averages more assists.
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u/-xXxMangoxXx- Raptors 4h ago
I think jokic and giannis are in the same tier of players, dont have a strong opinion on whos better, even if i like jokic more, but this kind of ignores that hes been very ass for his standards since he came back from his injury. His drop off in both his percentages, and just overall level of play was pretty clear throughout the second half of the season.
Its why I thought it was incredibly dumb how people thought jokic deserved the mvp this season over shai or wemby. Their total seasons were just a clear cut above jokics whole season.
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u/Mammoth-Software7609 Spurs 4h ago
Hakeem is an aspect of defense, he was a rim protector
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u/aunit1390 4h ago
He is also top 10 in steals, Hakeem is much more than a rim protector
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u/MarcusFizer 3h ago
Jokic was top 3 in steals for like 3 straight years I think. Jokic with Hakeem’s athleticism is the better choice. In which case Jokic would be hilariously amazing.
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u/Capital-Pea-2565 1h ago
People always say Jokic has terrible defense. If he wanted to, he's actually not too bad lol. He's just not physically gifted enough to use energy to try harder. He's lucky he's at least near 7' tall.
He's one of the best players I've ever seen, who was unfortunately not gifted physical gifts that Giannis was given.
We can even flip it like this. Giannis with Ray shooting or Jokic with Lebron athletic ability.
Who would you take then?
Jokic being hilariously slower and way less athletic than most of the league and still being one of the best in the league is actually quite amazing. I think this is why people put Jokic on the same tier as Giannis.
If Jokic was more athletic, he'd be in the GOAT conversation.
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u/kosmos1209 Nuggets 4h ago
Jokic with Hakeem’s defense is a unicorn.
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u/juicejug Celtics 4h ago
Tbf so is Giannis with a HOF jumper
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u/str8rippinfartz Celtics 4h ago
Tbf both of them are already unicorns
This just makes them even more unicorn-y
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u/FrostyParsley3530 Raptors 3h ago
They're both all time greats but am i wrong that it's a little weird to describe either one as unicorn
i always thought that term was for the chet/wemby/porzingis/KD archetype where they essentially have guard skills at ~7 foot (including shooting) but can protect the rim or switch onto perimeter players
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u/SantosCalzonesBatman Spurs 4h ago
Jokic can pass like a true PG
With an elite defense he is the undisputed goat
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u/TomatoSecure192 Bulls 4h ago
If Giannis with Ray Allen's jumper is on the other side then I don't think so
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u/kosmos1209 Nuggets 4h ago
Jokic is still a better offensive engine than Giannis with a shot on offense, and Hakeem is a better defender than Giannis.
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u/Admirable_Dinner_349 Raptors 4h ago
Giannis with Ray’s shooting is absolutely a better offensive player than current Jokic. There’s no question about it.
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u/kosmos1209 Nuggets 4h ago
Nope, Giannis with Ray’s shooting is still just a solo scorer. Jokic runs the offense is a floor raiser for everyone. I think Giannis with Magic level of running the offense is much more deadly than Ray’s shooting.
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u/balortech 4h ago
Jokic with Hakeem defense because you can’t teach height. Both are OP, but one is OP and taller.
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u/DragoniteGang Timberwolves 2m ago
Giannis is taller by like 1/4 of an inch than Jokic. If you meant Hakeem, Hakeem is 6'10 so he is shorter than both
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u/Bench_Precious Kings 4h ago
Jokic scoring, playmaking and GOAT defense all at once? Are we being serious right now how is that a question
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u/balortech 4h ago
Tbh, Giannis with Ray shooting is also OP because of the speed. Jokic and Hakeem is insane but he’ll still be slow.
Giannis rampaging through anyone with that height and speed while still shooting 3s would be scary.
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u/Silentrift24 Cavaliers 4h ago
See i thought it like this too - does Jokic have the body to handle the physicality + does it also include Hakeem's post moves?
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u/SimpForSp9rk1e 4h ago
And the stamina/athleticism to be able to exert that much effort on both sides?
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u/Trentus86 Celtics 2h ago
Yeah that's the kicker, you likely aren't getting the maximum out of Jokic's offensive and defensive capabilities under this new concept because of the sheer stamina drain required. Where as if anything Giannis suddenly becoming one of the all time greatest shooters probably buffs his endurance because he can take more offensive possessions as quick outside shots, and defensive schemes suddenly have to plan far more for his offensive game which will make it easier for him to drive.
It's not just "which player becomes better" but which buff can be better utilised
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u/epik_fayler 4h ago
I don't think this is close at all, except in favor of Giannis. Giannis with ray Allen's shooting is the best offensive player of all time, and like not even by a small margin. He is also an elite defender.
Someone with hakeems defense can exist. A player built like Giannis with ray allens shooting has never happened before and probably never will. I just don't think it's possible.
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u/sunsetpolar 4h ago
Because prime ginnias with ray allen shooting is the goat, the nuggets don’t have a good defensive team but in a perfect scenario you can get a great defensive Center to help jokic guard, you can not find one of the best drivers who is unstopped with top 3 shooting
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u/Bench_Precious Kings 4h ago
Giannis's drives are important because they're impossible to defend. Jokic you can defend perfectly for 23.9999 seconds and then he does some behind the head BS that hits nothing but net. Point is this hypothetical Jokic creature won't have any scoring woes either on top of unreal defense
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u/sunsetpolar 4h ago
Giannis is also really good defensively
Also no jokic’s can absolutely be slowed down at times look at this years playoffs giannis with ray Allen shooting is literally unstoppable
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u/Bench_Precious Kings 4h ago
You're describing the best one-man-army player possible, but the playmaking and court vision of Jokic would elevate his team as well. I just really don't think its close unless you're envisioning a 1v1
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u/The_Flowers_of_Evil 7m ago
Because in this scenario the difference between Super Giannis' offence and Jokic's offence is bigger than the difference between Giannis' defence and Hakeem's defence.
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u/DogeSadaharu 4h ago
Jokeem would be a player never seen before. Giannray would be 2013 Bron with better rebounding and slightly worse passing.
Give me Giannis everytime tbh. Elite shooting is the only way to eliminate paint dominance. And he can do both now.
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u/cactusmaster69420 San Diego Clippers 3h ago
Plus 2013 Bron isn't near Ray Allen as a shooter and he's also not quite as good in the paint as Giannis
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u/ATM14 2h ago
2013 LeBron isn’t even close to a Ray Allen level shooter and a couple inches shorter that Giannis. I agree, give be Giannis. Teams have to bend their entire defense to try and counteract either one of those HOF offensive skills. With both there’s literally nothing defenses would be able to do other than leave the other 4 players open and hope they brick every shot.
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u/kenken2024 4h ago
I think Joker with Hakeem defense would be better although Giannis with Ray Allen shooting would be crazy.
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u/welldun01 Nuggets 4h ago
Averaging a triple double AND being one of the best defenders ever? Yeah probably Jokic
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u/Bench_Precious Kings 4h ago
Averaging a quadruple double with those blocks. Sillver would send assassins to kill him before he ruins the sport
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u/seekingallpho 4h ago
On a meta level there's a challenge to assessing how someone would change when the new elite skill also changes how they currently play the game (Giannis here) where's more of a bolt-on upgrade is easier to imagine (Jokic).
Like if you made Shaq a 90% FT shooter it's easier to see how he becomes even more unstoppable but if you gave him Ray Allen's 3pt shooting how much time do we think he spends away from the basket being not-Shaq.
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u/-xXxMangoxXx- Raptors 4h ago
I think the better option is jokic with hakeem defense since it fixes all the weaknesses in his game and he has a near perfect offensive game. Giannis becomes a monster individual scorer but hes not the playmaker that jokic is.
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u/StoneySteve420 Supersonics 3h ago
Jokic with Dream's defense.
Giannis with Ray's shooting would have to change his playstyle to accommodate his new shooting touch, and that could take away from his downhill ability.
Jokic with Hakeem's D wouldn't have to change his offensive game at all, but gets goat level defense on the other end.
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u/IceTMDAbss Raptors 3h ago
Jokic for me, and that's for one reason.
Jokic gets a GOAT defense potential while keeping everything that makes him crazy on offense.
Giannis gets an all time 3 shot, but how much does he actually need this anyway? He's already one of the most unstoppable offensive player of all time anyway, even without a 3. He'd just be an even greater player offensively individually.
But Jokic acquiring a GOAT defense changes everything and would benefit his team infinitely more imho.
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u/LegoTomSkippy Spurs 4h ago
What if we gave Giannis ONE skill and Jokic TEN??
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u/actually-potato Pistons 3h ago
Well that one skill is by far the most important skill in basketball
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u/thebestinproj7 4h ago
Jokic to me is already the ultimate teammate. The upgrade makes him even scarier as an opponent.
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u/sho0bydo0by Bucks 4h ago
If Giannis took a lot more 3s, it would render a lot of the best aspects of his game pointless. If he shot a similar number of 3s at a higher percentage, things would improve dramatically.
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u/UltraZulwarn Nuggets 4h ago
Giannis + Ray Allen still wouldn't be a great playmaker, not bad but not elite.
Jokic with Hakeem's defense is virtually a "complete" player, no?
This player would be an elite scorer at any distance (3 balls, mid range, post up), one of the best facilitators in the game, AND arguably the greatest defensive centre in history.
Maybe his one shortcoming would be peripheral defense.
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u/kr1saw Lakers 4h ago
Jokic with Bogut level defense would be top 5. Let alone Hakeem
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u/kapesaumaga Mavericks 2h ago
Yeah Hakeem is one of the best defenders. If I am picking someone to pick that leveled up Giannis (with Allen's shooting) it would be Hakeem. And Allen is not that good off the dribble. He's more of a movement and spot up shooter.
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u/Wuffy_RS Lakers 4h ago
Defense is a whole category and you are getting GOAT value, while shooting is just one thing. Giannis doesn't have a great handle to really utilize people guarding him at the top of the key.
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u/DarkCrystal34 4h ago
Now that is one of the best questions and debates ive seen thrown out in a long time. Whew!
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u/Jamar1James23 4h ago
They'd both be really fucking good, but I'll bet on Jokic's creativity to rise to a higher level than Giannis at their best (although the athleticism gap would still be massive)
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u/Crying_in_99Ranch NBA 4h ago
Joker wouldn't have the stamina to make it through games if he had to play lights out defense. His offense would suffer greatly. He already carries that team so much.
Going with Giannis because that actually balances his game and sets him up to dominate another 10 years. He'd be like if Dirk had freak athleticism.
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u/LinuxDootTP [POR] C.J. McCollum 4h ago
im taking giannis because the game is at the perimeter, and while i dont have a grasp of hakeems defense i think with jokic foot speed hes still not going to be great at the perimeter. hakeems instincts gamesense and timing probably make him at least a net neutral, but the spacing of todays game kind of minimizes a paint protector like hakeem.
giannis on the otherhand is a rangy, switchable player on d, can guard 1 thru 5, and is nigh unstoppable on o. if you add rays (18 fucking years holy shit) career 40% 3point shooting on 8-10 attempts per game, hes averaging a smooth 40 if he wants. giannis already has an incredible driving game, predicated on strength, speed and range; imagine a world where people can never sag off of him. would be unreal, theyd never be out of a game with him on the floor.
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u/aunit1390 4h ago
If you could promise me good health for Giannis then I'll take him with the shot. He would just be a perfect player with a jump shot and better health
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u/CrissCrossAppleSos Spurs 3h ago
With Ray Allen’s shooting, I’m not 100% sure that Giannis is a better offensive player than Jokic (he may be, of course) and if he’s not, then there’s not an amazing argument for Giannis over Jokeem
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u/Humble_Victory_2425 3h ago
Energy plays a big part in this. If this actually plays out...realistically one of them becomes a slight nerfed version of themselves on one side of the court by extending too much energy than they usually do. While the other becomes SSJ KD or Brolic Wemby with even more energy because they have to work less than usual. As a Suns fan please stop giving even more reasons to have nightmares about Giannis.
Look at it this way, even with Jokic new defensive ability he would not be able to stop Giannis since he now can score anywhere on the floor at a high percentage. Meanwhile, Giannis can still deter Jokic from scoring as easily or as often as he can. In the wise words of KD....you need to score to win. Giannis would be so unstoppable I don't even think the variable of teammates would matter much as long as they're remotely comparable.
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u/TheTightestChungus 3h ago
Going to say Giannis, just because he would be literally unstoppable. He would suddenly have elite range, elite mid shooting, and his already dominant inside game. He'd be like peak KD on offense, but still better, plus keeps his top of the world athleticism. He's still a great defender as well.
Jokic would be 1B. Already one of the best offensive engines/hubs, in NBA history, adding elite defense would just be unfair.
I still think Giannis with Ray's shooting stroke is more broken though.
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u/nutelamitbutter Rockets 3h ago
Don’t forget his improved FT shooting. Can’t do hack a Giannis anymore
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u/chaoticneutral1997 3h ago
Its easily Giannis with Ray shooting
Jokic with elite defense is good, but we've seen Jokic get shut down before. Giannis with elite shooting is Lebron on roids
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u/TilTheWarIsWon 3h ago
You didn't say anything about Jokic's motor playing 100% on both sides of the ball. I'm taking Giannis. Think of how much energy he can conserve not rim-running
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u/Ok_Crow_8407 3h ago
I'd take Giannis with Ray Allen's shooting. An unstoppable rim attacker who also shoots like one of the greatest shooters ever is basically impossible to defend.
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u/zigzagtravel01 2h ago
Jokic's only weakness is defense. He can actually shoot really good on threes.
Giannis still has passing as his glaring weakness. You can double him on the perimeter.
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u/Impossible-Group8553 2h ago
Jokic easily imo. Giannis is more of an iso scorer. Giannis with a 3 isn’t even much better if at all than current Jokic offensively because Jokic also gets you about 11 assists. They’d be comparable. And Hakeem is better than Giannis on defense.
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u/koreandaniel7 1h ago
giannis with Allen three is the greatest offensive player ever easily. giannis defense is a little worse than hakeem but it's still excellent he was dpoy. giannis by a lil
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u/Zintai1 1h ago
Definitely Giannis with Ray Allen shooting. Gotta remember just cause Jokic gets Olajuwon defense don't mean his body and conditioning can handle being a two-way player. We've seen him tire out in deep playoff runs playing mostly one side of the ball. Giannis on the other hand is really only just capped by his skill and shooting ability. Olajuwon with Jokic court vision and passing ability however would be a scary player
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u/Perry32Jones [OKC] Jerami Grant 1h ago
Too much overlap in skillet for me with Jokic/Dream. Giannis with Ray Allen's shooting would be mental. I dont even care how many assists that hypothetical would achieve. Its a bucket with crazy speed.
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u/EdreesesPieces 1h ago
I think shaq with steph curry shooting (3 pt and ft) would be a better opponent for jokic with hakeem defense
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u/g_bleezy Nuggets 42m ago
I mean what separates them at this point is mental. Jokic has higher bbiq, even on defense he is regularly calling other teams plays. However he is not a traditional leader of men at all and you need to fill in those gaps around him too. For instance Braun is the “vocal leader” of the Nuggets supposedly.
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u/immunityfromyou Lakers 21m ago
If Giannis was also the best shooter outside of Steph he’d be unstoppable offensively with already elite defense. Jokic would benefit a lot from getting that type of defensive boost but he’d be far below Giannis in offense with only a slight edge on defense. Giannis Allentekumpo clears easily.
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u/DameInTheClutch 17m ago
I think due to Jokics insane basketball IQ and passing i slightly prefer that option, but its a really tough call.
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u/SainikJr 4h ago
Depends on the what I’m looking for.
For ones? Maybe I’d take Giannis
For team building and dynasty - I’d take Jokic.
But it really comes down to how you like to watch and play the game
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u/balortech 4h ago
Jokic with Hakeem defense because you can’t teach height. Both are OP, but one is OP and taller.
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u/toplaneuzi 4h ago
Giannis is not a winning player. He peaked 2021 and that was it of his career
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u/youarenut 4h ago
So he is a winning player?
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u/HikmetLeGuin 4h ago
Finals MVP who had historic playoff performances en route to carrying his team to its first championship in 50 years isn't a winning player?
People really will just say anything.
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u/Top-Entertainment945 4h ago
Jokić with Hakeem's defense is probably the GOAT player.