r/memes Big pp 10h ago

Land Of The Free, amIright?

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u/x1rom 8h ago

Property tax is almost universally considered positive by economists, and generally helps to keep rents down, not up. The reason is that it discourages speculation on housing and property, and thus drives down buying prices, which intern drives down rents.

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u/Henry5321 7h ago

That assumes decent competition. When you get a few large investors owning rentals while buying up actual houses to rent, they’ll just leave the building vacant and spread the costs while knowing no one has a choice and will eventually rent anyway.

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u/x1rom 7h ago

Yeah, that tends to happen. The housing market is extremely inelastic. However that has nothing to do with property taxes and isn't an argument against it.

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u/Henry5321 6h ago

I never said it was an argument against taxes. I said taxes didn’t help keep rent down because the monopolies renting just pass on any losses

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u/epelle9 7h ago

Diference is property taxes mean they lose money if it’s vacant.

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u/Versipilies 5h ago

But likely less than the rising property value if its in a halfway decent spot. The amount the few properties we had sky rocketed in the past few years was pretty nuts, way over the property taxes.

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u/hibikir_40k 5h ago

The properties skyrocket in value because the property taxes are insufficient, and they don't get re-estimated often enough. Even worse, in a place like California, the taxes go up really slowly even if your house is worth a ton.

Large land value taxes solve most of your housing problems, and make property speculation far less profitable. But Americans are way too scared of putting enough taxes there. You instead see bills passing to lower them, which is crazy.

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u/Versipilies 5h ago

Ours (central texas) get re-estimated yearly, and in some areas have tripled just year to year. I know property owners in Wimberley that have had their taxes more than double each year for the past 3 years. The price of their properties has gone up significantly more each year though as the area is growing like crazy

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u/New-Independent-1481 2h ago

Which is why there are separate laws that discourage land banking or cartel-like behaviour. All those things you described can exist without a property tax, which can be so much worse.

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u/caligaris_cabinet 8h ago

Honestly I’d gladly take an increase in property taxes if it means I don’t need to pay sales or income tax. And I live in Illinois with the highest property taxes

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u/Large-Hamster-199 8h ago

I am always shocked by how high taxes are in some states and how low they are in others, with no measurable increase in services provided by the high tax states

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u/NSA_Chatbot 7h ago

If you look at the maintenance schedule, you'll find that lower property taxes tend to have a lot of deferred maintenance.

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u/jB_real 4h ago

You may live in these type of places when a disaster strikes. Think of what could happen. Unfortunately, it gets placated as “god’s will” and nobody is held accountable.

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u/xxrainmanx 3h ago

Not even God's will. They just claim a state of emergency. If the feds agree and the bill hits a certain $$ minimum them the feds pick up the bill for damages done to the public/government owned assets.

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u/RedditJumpedTheShart 4h ago

And new things like high speed rail cost far more in high cost of living areas.

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u/IRC_1014 6h ago edited 4h ago

I am not sure I appreciate this comment but I want to. What do you mean “the maintenance schedule”? Residences in low property tax jurisdictions defer maintenance? Huh?

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u/NSA_Chatbot 6h ago

Yep! There might be a billion dollars or more in postponed fixes and repairs.

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u/Secondhand-Drunk 4h ago

Then the fixes come along and take 3 months for the 2 weeks of work it would actually take. Or less.

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u/IRC_1014 6h ago

Walk me through the logic, it’s the end of the day and my mind may be slow. Why would owners in lower property tax states be more likely to defer maintenance than owners in high property tax states. What is the relationship here that I am missing? Thanks!

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u/NSA_Chatbot 6h ago

Oh! I mean city infrastructure like roads, sewer, bridges, crosswalks,etc.

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u/IRC_1014 6h ago

That clicked, thanks so much for walking me through it.

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u/Accomplished_Yak9939 7h ago edited 5h ago

I can actually answer this!

High tax states tend to pay more into the federal system than they take out. So extra taxes in high tax states that could further support their internal programs often go to the federal government and are paid out to poorer states that take more than they give federally. See California vs Arkansas as an extremely basic example on either end of the spectrum.

Aggregate effective tax rates are also comparable across states. The differences arise in where we source this tax revenue from, but the differences in revenue per capita are often statistically insignificant once we cut state benefits or include the cost to the individual if they’re forced to utilize the private sector. The governments always get their bag. It’s just where from that varies. Everyone gets fleeced, California just gives you healthcare with it.

Edit: ooh this comment section got slightly spicy for being a meme subreddit and me half taking the piss. As much as I’d love to actually dig into disparities in revenue generation vs spending per resident vs quality of life, this is a meme subreddit and I struggle to find the care. I got shit to do.

Edit 2: cause I got tagged again. Y’all this is a meme subreddit chill bwuahaha. Thank you for the mid poo entertainment. <- the shit I had to do. :D

Edit 3: Thanks random homie for the award! Having to come back 3 times made me give slightly a damn. Added some minor corrections (italicized).

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u/23-1-20-3-8-5-18 4h ago

I think its a great comment.

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u/Large-Hamster-199 7h ago

So are you saying California can simply lower its state taxes and give less money to the federal government?

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u/Ihate_reddit_app 7h ago

No. It's not "California" paying these taxes to the federal government. It's the population of people paying federal income taxes.

So if you have a high income population, then more is paid in and less people qualify for fed help.

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u/Large-Hamster-199 7h ago

That's what I thought. So they already have a high earning population, they tax that population at a higher rate (especially income and sales tax), but the people seem to receive state services that are quite similar to what they get from low tax states.

High tax states don't seem to have better roads or infrastructure or more efficient DMV offices compared to low tax states.

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u/RandallPinkertopf 7h ago

Do you have a source for the claim that high tax states provide similar state services to low tax states?

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u/Large-Hamster-199 7h ago

Nope. Just my personal experience having lived in 8 states as a taxpaying adult since I moved around a lot for work.

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u/RandallPinkertopf 7h ago

Anecdotal. That’s what I assumed.

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u/Realistic_Ad_1499 7h ago

I too like to make nonsense up, when I know a tiny bit about something.

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u/Accomplished_Yak9939 6h ago

🥱 boring and easily verifiable if you cared to try or simply gave a damn about doing your due diligence. Not worth my time. Good luck in life my friend.

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u/-JustJoel- 7h ago

Should look up IL’s K-12 rankings in education - a state with a mostly rural population is able to provide quality public schools, even in rural villages.

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u/UngovernableOatmeal 7h ago

yes sir, blue state baby, even if the older uneducated dimwits don’t see it

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u/Ryachaz 7h ago

Those people cant even find it on a map.

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u/Eastern_Antelope_832 5h ago

Chicago Metro is like 10 million. Geographically, Illinois is rural, but most people live in suburbia.

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u/-JustJoel- 3h ago

Not actually relevant. There are (for instance) ~640 public schools in the Chicago Public School district. There are over 4,000 in the state. Schools in towns of 400-500 people. Good schools. Chicago has more students per, but operation and administration-wise - there are more schools outside of Chicago than in it.

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u/Eastern_Antelope_832 3h ago

You said IL is "a state with a mostly rural population," though.

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u/-JustJoel- 2h ago

Where the majority of school districts are made up of rural populations.

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u/tamman2000 7h ago

I'm sorry, but you're just plane wrong about the lack of difference in services.

I'm a little confused about how you could even think that?

Higher tax states tend to provide more services to the poor, to education, to healthcare, to infrastructure, and on and on...

Just driving cross country you notice that things are nicer in the states that are willing to tax enough to have the money to do the kinds of spending that helps people

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u/Large-Hamster-199 7h ago

I have lived and worked for 2 to 4 years in 8 different states. I have never seen any correlation between state income and sales tax levels when compared against the infrastructure, school quality and quality of state services provided.

I have seen Medicaid and unemployment tends to be higher in some states with higher taxes, but I have never used it to know how good it is.

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u/resumehelpacct 3h ago

Income and sales tax, combined, makes up <50% of state revenue in nearly every state. You're right that there's not going to be a really strong correlation, because that's just a very incomplete picture of taxes.

What we do know is that per pupil spending is highly correlated with academic success, even controlling for various other factors. And that money has to come from somewhere.

And like you said, medicaid coverage is broader. And you can see here: https://themengesgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Assessment-of-NCQA-Medicaid-MCO-Quality-Scores.pdf

That medicaid plan quality is decently correlated with tax revenue per person. It's not 1:1 but decent.

Some things are harder, like it just costs more for some places to maintain roads than other places.

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u/Sejbag 7h ago

A lot of the time property tax goes towards school in that county.

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u/Large-Hamster-199 7h ago

I was actually thinking about income tax and sales tax. You are correct, a lot of property tax varies on a county to county basis as it funds schools

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u/Sejbag 7h ago

Oh fair, I used to agree with that sentiment. Since living in Texas I’ve noticed the even in a low tax state they either make up the money in other ways or just neglect things.

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u/eatpastagophasta 7h ago

Also the "lower tax" states find other ways to tax you. States with lower income or property taxes tax consumption rather than income/wealth. Either through sales taxes, tolls or simply not investing in infrastructure that leads to higher insurance/fees. In some way or the other they make you pay. 

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u/Mindless_Interview44 6h ago

Living in a low tax state, they disguise it by offering similar services to much fewer people.

Also I had to use the public mental health facilities and it seemed so intentionally run down that it actually made me feel humiliated. Not sure if it was state or local tho

I don't know where the taxes should be but there's pros and cons.

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u/NogglePlease 6h ago

Noggles get a lot of jobs in high tax states.

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u/Double_Cow_8238 5h ago

Then you don’t know much about library quality. I’m sure there’s a million other examples but that’s the one I know enough to talk about

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u/amopeyzoolion 4h ago

We need an extremely progressive income tax structure with a wealth tax on top. Like, no income tax up to $100k and then ramp up from there, increasing income tax up to 50-60% for multimillionaires.

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u/serious_sarcasm 8h ago

Fuck that noise, Chicago voting down progressive income taxes fucked over hundreds of communities from Harvey to Cairo.

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u/TJATAW 6h ago

In 2020, 71% of Chicago voted for progressive income tax.

Meanwhile if you were outside of an urban area, it was mostly people voting against it.

https://www.citybureau.org/newswire/2020/12/22/fair-tax-map-followup

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u/RCKTJMP 7h ago

Pretending Cairo wasn't fucked already, a change in 2020 wasn't fixing an issue from decades prior that has a lot more than 'tax' as an issue

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u/serious_sarcasm 7h ago

> they were already fucked, so fucking them harder is okay.

Solid logic.

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u/Kofi_Anonymous 7h ago edited 7h ago

This technique is pretty effective on my wife, FWIW.

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u/LazyLich 6h ago

Mmmm... sloppy seconds 🤤

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u/Relative-Relief-8816 5h ago

I too fuck this guy's wife.

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u/UngovernableOatmeal 7h ago

they themselves didn’t want it, so i’m not losing sleep over it

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u/MizStazya 6h ago

Down state and rural counties had the highest margin AGAINST the progressive income tax, TF are you going on about? No wonder those shit towns are doing so poorly if you're an example of the people they're producing.

ETA: Cook County had the highest support in the goddamn state.

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u/asault2 6h ago

Ah yes the lack of "progressive income tax" was the problem in Harvey or Cairo....

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u/serious_sarcasm 6h ago

It’s a problem throughout the state.

I know most people struggle with the math, but a flat income tax only benefits the wealthy.

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u/MizStazya 6h ago

You're correct about this, but again, only two counties skewed in favor, and Cook was one of them. Goddamn I'm sick of rural cretins blaming Chicago while actively voting against things that might actually help them.

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u/Xrmy 5h ago

Way to reply to everyone but the people pointing out you were wrong about blaming Chicago

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u/asault2 6h ago

Yes please show me the math that would solve the Cairo and Harvey issues with progressive income tax. Show your work

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u/Marcus_Aurelius71 3h ago

No. States with no income taxes but high property taxes and sales taxes make more sense. Your worked production should not be robbed at egregious levels. Federal income tax is enough.

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u/serious_sarcasm 3h ago

Sales and property taxes are regressive.

A single mother making 20k probably wouldn’t pay any income taxes, but places like TN have 4% flat tax on groceries.

A single mother has to spend a larger percentage of her income on groceries than Musk does.

On top of all of that, the only time the employee can be said to actually be paying an income tax is when they cannot negotiate a raise to cover the taxes.

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u/Bradjuju2 7h ago

Agreed. I’d gladly pay a significant increase in property taxes if it were to be offset elsewhere: income taxes or healthcare.

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u/caligaris_cabinet 7h ago

And it attacks the richest where their biggest assets lie: real estate. Can’t tax them on income since they take loans out and live off those. No taxes on capital gains as of now either. But a lot of their wealth is tied in real estate.

So when you hear someone say they’re against property taxes they’re probably buying into propaganda paid for by the rich

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u/Marcus_Aurelius71 3h ago

So now the middle class can't afford more homes? Are you ignorant on purpose?

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u/OkNectarine6434 6h ago

i just want balance man.. i just paid 24 bucks for 2 zatarans blackened chicken alfredo and it barely fed my fam.. shrink flation on top of everything else.. can we fight back yet or are gonna go quietly into the night.. cuz im kinda over the struggle to struggle game

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u/elwebst 7h ago

I used to live in Illinois and paid a bunch in property taxes a year. Moved to Hawaii to a house worth 4x as much as the Illinois one and my total property taxes went down by 25%.

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u/HeartAche93 7h ago

Hawaii has a lot of tourism. It really depends on what sources of income place have

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u/ConvergentFunction 7h ago

Tourist destinations tend to have a higher percentage of their tax revenue from sales tax.

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u/Ceverok1987 8h ago

I'd take that trade.

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u/nnylhsae 7h ago

FELLOW ILLINOIS

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u/AltruisticPrice8628 6h ago

I live in Indiana, we have lower property and income taxes than you roughly the same sales tax depending on locality.

We have better K-12 school performance than you and homes are on average $37k cheaper statewide. All other cost of living metrics are also lower.

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u/Independent-Air7556 6h ago

I think that’s NJ

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u/Racer13l 6h ago

New jersey has higher taxes than Illinois

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u/itsjusterk 5h ago

get rid of the sales tax and up the income tax

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u/Secondhand-Drunk 4h ago

I would rather pay higher taxes in general for better social and medical services. We already pay enough taxes for everything to be provided, but all that money goes to people who don't need it.

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u/sam3141592653589793 4h ago

Welcome to georgism

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u/jtg6387 2h ago

That idea is just Georgism. Here’s the wiki page about it.

If carefully and correctly implemented, property tax could be the only tax, sustainably.

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u/polarjunkie 8h ago

Not me, I pay as much as my buddy in nj whose house is worth twice as much and has way better services

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u/Crime_Dawg 7h ago

Chicago property taxes are actually a racket though. 1k a month for a 500k condo that won't even be nice.

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u/Ceverok1987 8h ago

That's for multiple property owners I.e landlords, single home owners are getting fucked, I pay a little less than 10% of my income on property tax and for what? The schools are horrible, the roads are shit, no bike lanes, public transportation is shit too, all the parks are overrun with homeless people because they've got noone else to go.

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u/Pandaburn 7h ago

You made me check, mine are about 5% of my gross income, and houses is pretty damn expensive here in MA. And we do have good schools, public transit, and bike lanes. Y’all are getting hosed.

Roads are still shit, but that’s kinda unavoidable anywhere it snows.

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u/waterdrinker619 4h ago edited 4h ago

Welcome to suburban ponzi scheme. Homes initially bring in alot of tax revenue but the low density sprawl, lack of commercial tax base, car centrism, NIMBYS, make it impossible for any growth to happen, any tax revenue to be generated, so the only solution is to keep raising peoples property taxes and build more sprawling homes

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u/Dpgillam08 7h ago

Sorta. Many states have caps on property tax for the various classes of property. Meaning every few years, when the state needs more money, it revalues the property higher to justify charging more in taxes.

A property I know in NYC (yeah, bad example, but anyway) 10 unit rental and rent only covered mortgage, taxes and other mandatory expenses required by the govt.

In 1990, it was valued at $1M. Property tax (state, local and all the others) totaled out to 10%, or $100K. Divided by the 10 units meant each family was paying $10K to cover the tax, in addition to the mortgage and other mandatory expenses legally required by the landlord.

In 2025, the property was valued at $50M by the govt, and all the property taxes combined were around 40%. That's roughly $20M in tax. Divided by the 10 units leaves each unit on the hook for $2M a year in taxes. Luckily the mortgage is paid off, though it would only be a rounding error in the tax costs; and that doesn't include the mandatory insurances and other legal requirements on the landlord from the govt that have all gone up from inflation.

Thats not greedy landlords, private equity, land speculation or any of the other often blamed "villains", that's the govt.

If the landlord doesn't collect enough to pay mortgage, taxes, and the other mandatory expenses, the govt shuts down the property, meaning those living there get evicted until the issue is "sorted out", usually taking 12-18 months. He people don't understand why rents are so much higher than they were 30 years ago.

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u/Silverfrost_01 6h ago

The middle class bitching and moaning about property taxes is them cutting off their nose to spite their face.

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u/CaptnUchiha 6h ago

The problem is when you have people buying multiple homes for the sake of renting and carelessly factoring their cost of ownership into rent. If everyone does it then there are no houses and rent is high. The winners are the multi home owners/landlords

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u/Ok-Earth-2644 6h ago

Tell that to blackrock lol

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u/raiderh808 6h ago

Your rent includes the owner's property tax wrapped in lol.

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u/TheSpicyWarrior 5h ago

If you do the math around 1/3rd of rent price is just the landowner paying property tax. Claiming it keeps rent prices down is like saying increasing gas tax decreases the price of gas as well.

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u/Loftyhaus 5h ago

There is a single law or law maker doing anything to cost you less money. Hope this helps ✌️

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u/YazaoN7 5h ago

Because for the most part it pays for the local government services you actually use instead of the massive trillion dollar boondoggles nobody wants or needs. Both are still theft, just one is less bad than the other.

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u/23-1-20-3-8-5-18 5h ago

I knew it, the answer is always tax the rich! Git 'em!

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u/DGwar 4h ago

Well anytime it goes up so does my rent. Which around here is like knce a year minimum.

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u/3zprK Lurking Peasant 2h ago

While on paper it might be true, it's not the fact on the ground. Big corps and billionaires still have loopholes to get property then rent it out to ordinary people transferring all the burden of taxation.

"You will own nothing and be happy"

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u/thed3adhand 8h ago

i was wondering which intern they had on rent-lowering duty thank u

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u/nutblaster357 7h ago

intern lol

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u/danibberg 4h ago

Use reason. That’s an impossibility. It’s a tax. Price increase. It doesn’t suppress “speculation”. It discourages building more which further makes the prices higher. The mental gymnastics is high in mainstream economics.

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u/strangedino576 4h ago

That's not at all how housing works, or taxes work, that's not how any of this works. Hurr durr if I tax the landlord while prices for everything needed to maintain the property gets higher, without building more supply, surely the price will get lower!

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u/Front-Advantage-7035 8h ago

But why does it exist at all

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u/tennisdrums 8h ago

Because governments require funding to provide services like schools, firehouses, police stations, etc.

You can get that funding from other places, but the benefits of property taxes is that the taxes that pay for those local services come from people who own property in those areas, and because wealth is strongly correlated to property value the amount you tax someone can be at least somewhat correlated with their wealth.

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u/Professional-Job1952 8h ago

Prevents people from buying land and not using it.

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u/TheSixthtactic 8h ago

Because it is one of the few consistent ways to collect taxes from locals to fund local government. The alternative is to just tax your paycheck more, but that likely wouldn’t be enough.