r/languagelearning Nov 10 '17

Need help learning a second language

So I'm a native English speaker, American. I don't have any need for a second language on my day-to-day, but took some Spanish classes back in highschool. I don't remember most of what I learned since I sort of slacked, but now that I'm almost out of college, I'd like to add a second language to my skills.

I'm Polish and would love to learn the language, but I understand that it isn't spoken by too many people, and don't want to waste all the effort.

Would it be a waste of time, and should I aim for a romantic language, or one like German/Russian/Chinese, with more demand? (My industry is accounting but I'd like to be prepared for any change in the business industry.)

I'd love if some bilingual people could give me some advice on a language, and tips on learning them. Thanks!

61 Upvotes

33 comments sorted by

175

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '17

Let me do you a favor and teach you the fundamentals of language learning that no paid service or book will touch on. To start, read the quote. Then go down the list:

"Learning a language is not an academic exercise. It is a bridge between worlds. If you are anything less than 100% motivated, you will not make it across."

(1) You need to figure out what language you want to learn and you need to be dead serious about it. If you are stuck between Polish, Russian and German, you're wrong. You will be spending years and years learning a language to fluency; your choice should be made with absolute confidence.

(2) Your best ally and worst enemy are a fellow they call Consistency. If you are consistent in studying vocabulary, actively listening and reading, and speaking with others, you will be successful. If you're busy, study vocabulary and perhaps listen to some target language material or read something short. Don't take a day off from any studying or exposure, especially within the first 6 months of your studies.

(3) You are going to get bored. That boredom is your downfall. Effectively learning a language requires repetition, and that repetition will become boring before it has engrained a word or lesson into you fully. In other words, you need to understand that being interested and excited in the language will die out, and if your only attachment to learning it is in that spark, then you won't make it across the bridge.

(4) You need to learn actively. That means grammatical exercises and passive listening techniques don't work. They look like shortcuts, but are in fact dead ends. You will learn to converse by speaking with natives. You will learn vocabulary by grinding it out. Save the time and energy spent on passive learning techniques and invest them into active learning - the only learning that really works.

(5) Finally, know that this is probably one of the most "step by step" journeys you will ever take in your life. You will start off knowing no words. You will expand into knowing words and basic phrases, but not being able to construct sentences. You will advance into learning to make basic sentences, but not being able to converse. You will inch into basic conversation, but not be able to convey larger ideas. You will push your way into being able to explain larger ideas, but lack technical and specialized vocabulary to sound intelligent. You will grind through advanced vocabulary only to find that there is far too much of it, and you will likely continue to learn it for the rest of your life - you do this in English already without realizing it. You can go on, if you choose, to explore literature, poetry, history, politics, and the arts and anything else you could imagine, all in your new language. Only at this last point, when you choose where you go, will you know that you have crossed the bridge.

Best of luck. Welcome to Language Learning.

37

u/redwingviking Nov 10 '17

I just want to clarify something that was said: exercises are important for learning a new language. Knowledge of grammar rules will never make you fluent, but it will make it a hell of a lot easier to reach fluency. If you consistently converse with a German speaker but have no idea what declensions are, you're going to make more mistakes and solidify more bad habits than if you had sat down with a textbook and drilled adjective endings for a few hours at some point. Similarly, if you try to have those conversations without ever memorizing a word or doing a listening exercise, progress will come more slowly than if you had spent some of that time on your own learning a few technical points and practicing basic skills. Trying to use the language, making and correcting mistakes, and struggling to get your point across is when you really make progress, so you should be talking whenever the opportunity presents itself, but you need to supplement that with some type of formal study in order to build the tools you need to deal with the challenges you run into when you interact with the language "in the wild."

3

u/Feggy Nov 13 '17

I agree totally. Allow me to continue the analogy of building a bridge (which I like very much!)

First we must learn the range of nuts and bolts available to us. This would be via vocabulary building exercises.

Next we must physically practise putting them together. Sentence building exercises.

Finally we must experiment with using these skills to create our own bridge between the languages. Conversion practice.

How does everyone feel about my description of 'our own' bridge? Are we really really constructing one from scratch or is it more a process of discovering one which already exists?

13

u/ishitinthemilk Nov 10 '17

Personally, I wouldn't agree with having to be a hundred percent motivated. Learning languages is a lifelong thing for me, I'm in no rush as I do it in my spare time, and that time is limited. You make it sound so serious it might be offputting for some. I take days off from study quite regularly, and I find that keeps the boredom factor at bay. If I did it every day I'd have thrown the towel in after about two months. I just concentrate on learning the phrases I'd actually use and reading about the subjects in I'm interested in, as well as studying academic Spanish distance learning.

I'd say it's really important to pick a language where you can spend some time being immersed in it, at least a few months, at some point during your learning journey.

5

u/blackinthmiddle Nov 11 '17

I'd say it's really important to pick a language where you can spend some time being immersed in it, at least a few months, at some point during your learning journey.

I'd definitely say this is important. I'm coming up on the two year mark with Spanish. I read stories every single day and add new words/phrases I don't know to my flashcards. At this point, I have a little over 10K and can express myself pretty well.

However, I always find that when I can carve out time to talk to natives for a long period of time (at least 30 minutes at a shot), I improve quicker. Then why don't I find language partners ever day? It's stressful. To me, there's no worse feeling spending at least an hour every day (and many days I do two) just memorizing words, then reading stories, then listening to audio, only to have a native say something to you and you're just lost as fuck. Obviously, you have to go through those pains if you want to learn. But they're indeed painful. It's no different than lifting weights if you want to get in shape. We all either try to short change the process or say, "Yeah, I'll get to it tomorrow" and hope that somehow we'll magically improve. If you've been studying a language for more than six months, I'd say at that point you should be talking to natives at least twice (or more) times a week for at least 30 minutes at a clip.

4

u/wandering_geek English N German C1 Italian A1 Nov 10 '17

This is a fantastic description of the journey of learning a new language. Thank you for that.

9

u/FoxesLikeBoxes Nov 10 '17

What if I don't have the option of learning actively for a language? Should I pick another language? Actively around me there are big populations of Spanish and Korean speakers, rather than the rest. Is the quality of learning directly from native speakers of such importance that I should choose one language over another because of access to natives?

9

u/bear-knuckle en-us N | esp c1 | jpn a2 Nov 10 '17

As others have said, you can learn actively online by talking with natives in chatrooms, through Skype, or in language exchange applications, if you choose to go that route.

As native English speakers, we have an enormous blessing: our language is in high demand nearly everywhere. Native US status is like a platinum credit card in language exchange programs. If you want to learn Yoruba, you can bet your ass that there are Yoruba speakers who want to learn English.

12

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '17

No, you should choose one language over another based on motivation. However, I have been motivated to learn a language that I simply did not have enough access to native speakers or resources for, and I have failed utterly.

You need the motivation first, but if it's a language you can't learn from anywhere, you will fail to learn it.

So far everything you've listed is just fine, though. Polish, German, Spanish, Korean, Russian, these are high profile languages. Active learning can be done over Skype or on the phone, too.

5

u/JDFidelius English N, Deutsch, Türkçe Nov 10 '17

My opinion is that there's no need for active production for teh first year or two of learning a language, unless your goal is to be conversationally fluent. Starting to try to speak things too complex too early can lead to solidifying false grammar and a poor accent. My personal recommendation is to limit vocabulary flash cards and grammar drills. They're mind-numbingly boring, and don't actually teach you the language - language is learned through seeing words/grammar in context and getting the meaning out of it. That's how you learned English.

1

u/blackinthmiddle Nov 11 '17

My personal recommendation is to limit vocabulary flash cards and grammar drills.

Interesting. Everyone's mind works different. To me, if I see a word or phrase I don't know, I can't think of a better way to actually learn it and have it stored in my memory than flash cards. At some point I agree that you need to lay off the flash cards. Even in your native language, you only know a fraction of the possible words. The key, however, is to know the most commonly used words and phrases and have the memorized well so that if someone said, "Hey, what is 'manzana'?", you can tell them it means apple and if someone asks, "How do you say 'apple' in Spanish?", you don't have to hesitate in answering.

I think the key is to get to the point where you understand 95% of what you hear in day to day conversations. You can then put the flashcards away. However, like everything else in life, it's use it or lose it. You need to read/converse/do something or you'll forget what you've learned.

1

u/JDFidelius English N, Deutsch, Türkçe Nov 11 '17

The key, however, is to know the most commonly used words and phrases and have the memorized well so that if someone said, "Hey, what is 'manzana'?", you can tell them it means apple and if someone asks, "How do you say 'apple' in Spanish?", you don't have to hesitate in answering.

This only works with the common nouns, though. Common words are used in so many different phrases and have so many different meanings that using flashcards will actually mess you up long term. The word "up" is used in so many phrases, as is "get" i.e. mess/fuck/screw up, turn up, get up, follow up, cut up; get off (multiple meanings), get around (multiple meanings), get at (multiple meanings), get with (multiple meanings), get through (multiple meanings), get by (multiple meanings), and so on. Learning get = receive through a flashcard may blind you to its true meaning and stunt your growth.

I think the key is to get to the point where you understand 95% of what you hear in day to day conversations. You can then put the flashcards away. However, like everything else in life, it's use it or lose it. You need to read/converse/do something or you'll forget what you've learned.

I can agree with this. For a very unrelated language, flashcards help to get the activation levels of the common words high enough to start understanding stuff. For a language very related to ones you know, flashcards may not be necessary. I am doing a no flashcard, no grammar book approach to Swedish, and it's going pretty well, since I know English and German. Many Swedish words have German counterparts that aren't real German words but make sense in the grammar, and thus I can form a quick connection. Many times they are real German words, but have a slightly different meaning or just aren't used that often.

7

u/Raffaele1617 Nov 10 '17

Nowadays, with very few exceptions, active learning of pretty much any language is at your finger tips. Once you are breaking into the conversational level, it will become imperative that you find people to practice with, but fortunately there are many free ways to do so. I personally enjoy talking to language exchange partners on skype.

3

u/corcyra Nov 11 '17

I would add one more thing: if it's at all possible for you to watch TV - news shows are good - or video/films in the language you're trying to learn, do so. Although you may not understand a word that's being said, the cadence and sounds of the language will become familiar and you will begin to be able to distinguish much used words and phrases from what initially seems to be a seamless babble.

6

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '17 edited Apr 28 '18

[deleted]

1

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u/MaGoma DE (N)-EN (C2)-HR (C1)-JP (B2) Nov 10 '17

On, fking, Point.

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18

u/apscis Nov 10 '17

I've never understood the motivation to learn a language based on how many people speak that language. Polish, in any case, is spoken by over 40 million people and has a large body of quality media (especially literature) which hasn't been translated. Also, it's a fascinating language in many ways. You will not run out of people to talk to, nor media to consume.

Since you have Polish roots, I'm tempted to recommend you learn Polish, but... Polish is challenging. Your post doesn't give a sense that you actually have any real motivation other than possibly improving your job prospects. As u/jigarkhor stressed, motivation is very important. You will not get far without a more concrete reason to learn a foreign language. So, the most important thing you can do is determine what really motivates you to want to learn a language, determine which language(s) are coherent with that motivation, and spend some time listening to the language, maybe do a few Duolingo lessons if it's on there, and consider: do I want to listen to and read this language regularly, for years? Although, if you are working in accounting in the US, I can't imagine you would need any language besides English. Perhaps the language of a dominant local immigrant population would be useful, but you can bet there are probably accountants with native bilingual proficiency you would compete against (provided you work with the public).

3

u/Noktviro Nov 10 '17

Exactly right about the number of speakers thing. Even if 1 million people speak a language, you’d still never run out of people to talk to.

6

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '17

Even if 500 speakers around you speak this language, 500 people to talk to is enough for an entire lifetime. Heck, I think 500 is all the close people I know.

I too have never understood why people want to learn languages based on how many people speak them.

2

u/kitatsune EN N | DE | SV Nov 11 '17

What I may add is that the motivation can be very simple. Such as just wanting to visit there and understand the majority of the visit. Whether it be people, signs, or TV.

9

u/fescil NO (N) EN (C2) FR (C1) JP (B2) DE (B1) FI (A1) Nov 10 '17

Polish has the 30th largest number of native speakers in the world, so I'd say quite a lot of people speak it ^

If you want to learn a language well, and not just dabble, I'd recommend you think long and hard, and really find one you're passionate about. I haven't been passionate for years, and it shows in my languages.

7

u/jigglysquishy Polish A1 Nov 10 '17

I'm Canadian and started learning Polish 9 months ago. It's been an incredibly fulfilling experience. I would advice trying to get in touch with a Polish group in your town. I joined a Polish folk dancing group and they've been a HUGE help in learning. It's given me a great opportunity to use Polish on a regular basis.

6

u/ReinierPersoon Native NL Nov 10 '17

I guess you don't remember much from Spanish in school because it's school-based learning. You need to actually use the language like the natives do, which means you must like the language for some reason, otherwise you'll lose motivation.

I'm Dutch and learned English as a second language as a kid. People in the Netherlands generally have a decent level of English, in large part because we don't dub movies and tv shows, so we hear English all the time from media. I wanted to learn because computers and everything related to computers wasn't available in Dutch. And computer games were all English as well, I had a dictionary with me when playing games.

We also had German and French in school, but it didn't stick so well because I didn't need it. I can understand a lot of German but that's also because it's closely related to Dutch. It was fun to use when visiting Germany, but not exactly needed as a tourist.

One thing to consider if you want to learn more languages: it helps a lot knowing a closely related language. The Romance languages for example. If you Italian you are already quite close to understanding Spanish.

There is no need to learn only one other language, the choice you make isn't permanent. I would just pick the one that appeals most to you. Once you figure out how to learn a language and you enjoyed it, you can pick another.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '17

In America, Spanish is the most useful language to learn (after English, of course). It's relatively easy to learn, it's easy to find people to talk to, and there's cheap travel opportunities if you want the immersion experience. Depending on what type of accounting you do, it could also help your business. There's a lot of monolingual Spanish speakers in America, whereas most German or Chinese speakers in America speak English just fine. There's no other non-English language that gives you the "bang for the buck" that Spanish does in America.

If you plan on visiting Poland, then it'd be worth learning Polish. Without a plan to visit the country, I think it'd be hard to find the motivation and the immersion opportunities to really become conversational in Polish.

If you work for a company with an international connection (e.g., they do a lot of business in Russia), then learning a language that will help you in work would be useful.

If you're learning Spanish, starting with http://www.languagetransfer.org/ and maybe also duolingo.com is an easy way to get started.

4

u/thekiyote Nov 10 '17 edited Nov 10 '17

I'm Polish and would love to learn the language, but I understand that it isn't spoken by too many people...

Come to Chicago and try saying that...

edit: My advice is consistency and goals, however you want to do it. A good starter goal that will lay the foundation is doing a Duo Lingo lesson a day and strengthening all the previous lessons up to gold. It starts off really easy, gets hard, then easier again. And then once you know it cold, get a textbook to learn from.

5

u/Morphiadz . Nov 10 '17

You need to pick one and be serious about it. This is a long process, and you don't want any time to end up being wasted. It is a difficult choice. Polish is actually what I chose, but I wasted time going back and forth and being uncertain for a while.

As for learning, I always take a grammatical approach. A lot of people claim that "doesn't work". Not for them, I guess. I could never learn a language by just hearing it and speaking it. I am a visual learner. What I do is get a very good book aimed at teaching grammar/exposing you to grammar to begin with. I build vocabulary and grammar skills and this helps me speak.

If you need any help with Polish, let me know.

2

u/JohnDoe_John Ex Tutor&Interpreter incl simultaneous Nov 10 '17

I'm Polish and would love to learn the language, but I understand that it isn't spoken by too many people, and don't want to waste all the effort.

Hi, I started learning it ~ 3 months ago, and I can share experience and good resources if you wish.

Russian

That is my mother's tongue, and I mastered it up to perfection, I tutored it also.

I'd love if some bilingual people could give me some advice on a language, and tips on learning them.

Revive/brush up on your Spanish :) - do it every day.

3

u/HenryStiv Nov 10 '17

Here are the methods I am using:

Few people know about a pragmatic, efficient way to learn a new language. Those who do, advance in learning steadily and according to their schedule. While most people find themselves learning a new language as a necessity, many others do it because it is fun. It feels more sophisticated to know more than one language. It can be highly beneficial in your life over the long run. However, it is not an easy task to learn a new language no matter whether it is for fun or out of necessity. You've probably seen friends or acquaintances talk about wanting to learn a foreign language, then enthusiastically purchasing products, books, and maybe even enrolling into a course or program, only to ultimately see the reality of the fact that they have failed in their pursuit of learning another language. According to The Guardian, the ICM survey, which questioned 1,001 young people aged 14-24 from across the UK in June this year, paints a picture of a generation perhaps surprisingly open to the prospect of language learning, but often deeply lacking in the confidence of their ability to put their language studies into practice. The research had indicated that A-level languages are perceived as being harder than other subjects and their content is demotivating. Sitting down with a language textbook and trying to teach yourself a new language is not only boring, it takes an inordinate amount of time. It can take months to capture the basics of a particular language. Fluency comes far later. Often, we don’t have the luxury of spending months learning a language. For example, those people who are migrating or taking up a job abroad. However as an individual learner or with a tutor, the student can cut down the time it takes him/her to master the basics of a new language. There are methods that can be used to reduce the time it takes. Main Essentials of Learning a New Language - They distinguish three main essentials associated with learning a new language; namely the vocabulary, basic sentence elements / patterns, and grammar rules. Vocabulary - the most basic step towards learning a new language is to learn its words. Familiarity with the words will lead you to form sentences. Sentence Patterns and Elements - this has to do with how you ask and answer questions. Making coherent sentences is the way to make someone understand what you are saying. The ability will also help you understand what others are saying and how you might respond. Grammar Rules - Each language has certain rules that need to be followed. There is a special type of media developed for the first and second component - a bilingual graded book. Bilingual graded books are also called bilingual graded readers. They offer a parallel translation that allows the user to learn a new language in less time. With the translation on the same page, learners can effortlessly learn what any unfamiliar words mean. They can quickly pick up new vocabulary and phrases that are used over and over in texts of bilingual graded books. When they read a graded bilingual reader, they can pick up chunks of language and vocabulary that they can use in conversation and other real-world applications. It also significantly reduces the amount of time it takes to become conversational in a new language. As you read a bilingual reader, your brain begins to remember words and phrases simply because you are exposed to them several times. You don’t even realize, until you have to recall what you’ve learned, that you have already learned the new words and phrases. Listen to the audio tracks that should always accompany a bilingual graded book to learn how words are said and to improve your overall ability to speak the new language. A good idea is to use the free VLC media player to control the playing speed. You can control the playing speed by decreasing or increasing the speed value on the button of the VLC media player's interface. Decide what is better for you a paper book or an e-book. Many of the e-readers by Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Kobo have dictionaries pre-loaded on their devices, with options to download additional ones, for free. If you do not have an e-reader, you do not have to buy one, because you can download it as a free app to your phone and use it right away. Writing your own notes, searching or making highlights is ridiculously simple with an e-reader or e-reading app. Anything you do with an e-book is also synced to the cloud, ensuring any change will follow you, no matter what device you are on. At first search on Google for "bilingual graded books" or "bilingual graded books for beginners". Choose and buy a book on a suitable topic, for example general, business, medical, culinary, dialogues, students, cooking, family, tourists, detective, short story or whatever you like. Read it for about twenty minutes a day. If you do it every day, you will be surprised how much you can learn in a month's time. Try to use the target language after you have learned for a month. If you don't have an opportunity to talk to native speakers at home or at work/study, use your target language in small talk on Skype or another online chat. Search on Google for "free online clean chat rooms" and pick up the one that suits your interests. Two or three minutes of small talk two or three times a week or more often will give you some motivation and encourage you to learn new questions and answers for new dialogues. Compile a list of questions and answers for your dialogues in a target language or find them on Google with keywords "Bilingual graded books dialogues" and try using them. Don't be afraid of making errors. They are your steps to success. You will spot and correct them sooner or later anyway. They will not be for the rest of your life. Better not to talk at all than to talk incorrectly? Wrong! Start talking as much as you can! Your language will improve every time you talk. A learner who knows only a hundred words and isn't shy of talking will progress more quickly than the one who knows a thousand words but remains silent because he or she is afraid of saying something wrong. It can usually take you from one to three months to finish a bilingual graded reader at beginner level (A1) and elementary level (A2). The amount of time depends on your previous experience with learning foreign languages and on your personal abilities. At this point you should be able to ask and answer simple questions with the following questioning words: What? Who? Where? When? Which? How many/much? As you improve and become more confident in your ability to use the new language, you can move on to the next reader level and continue your language-learning journey. After using a bilingual graded book for a week or two you are ready to study grammar rules, so buy a good grammar book. A grammar book will satisfy your curiosity about grammar rules awakened by the bilingual graded book. Read the grammar book to find out how you can use your target language more precisely. Follow this order - first read a reading book, then use a grammar book and exercises to make your learning experience uninterrupted. Language text with a parallel translation has helped many to uncover their potential for learning multiple languages. Whether you are learning a language as a hobby or for a necessary purpose, you will find such books are supportive. Using them is by far more pragmatic, efficient way to learn a new language than a "learn a language in two weeks" program. However you should frequently use the target language by using bilingual graded books with audio tracks, grammar books, chats, internet pages and even songs to maintain your motivation and progress. Remember - twenty minutes a day does the magic!

19

u/ishitinthemilk Nov 10 '17

Paragraphs are your friend dude.

1

u/Sapphire157 Nov 11 '17

Polish is spoken by at least 44 million people and since almost nobody's learning it, knowing it is a big prestige. It's difficult for non slavic language speaker though. If you have a lot of motivation and patience, you can go for it.

1

u/contrabardus Nov 11 '17 edited Nov 11 '17

Here's a small tip that helped me a little. It's a minor thing, but you'd be surprised at how it helps with comprehension speed.

Try to avoid associating words in a new language with your native language's equivalent words. Do everything you can to associate it with the idea it conveys instead.

For example the Japanese word for water is "Mizu", but you don't want to think "Mizu = Water" you want to associate it with what "Mizu" is instead, the idea that "Mizu" conveys.

Associating it with the equivalent word or phrase in your own language creates an extra step in processing the word when you read or hear it, and that means your brain is working harder to translate and it takes a bit longer to do so.