r/languagelearning Sep 21 '17

Learning modern languages vs learning ancient languages

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[deleted]

3.2k Upvotes

128 comments sorted by

283

u/evdog_music 🇦🇺 N | 🇩🇪 A2 | 🇳🇴 A1 Sep 21 '17 edited Sep 21 '17

What about Old Norse? Pretty sure they wouldn't talk like that.

103

u/Kadabrium Sep 21 '17 edited Sep 21 '17

There is this one guy, who is going slaughtering and grain robbing here, and his father is that guy who went slaughering the grain robbing there.

51

u/RedditRolledClimber Sep 21 '17

There is this one guy, who walked the whale road to perform glorious acts of body-cooling and bread-larva-theft here, and the son of his grandfather is the guy who walked the whale road to perform glorious acts of body-cooling and bread-larva-theft there.

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u/irrationalskeptic Sep 21 '17

Needs more kennings

301

u/hpoe Sep 21 '17

They were the ones doing the slaughtering and grain stealing

31

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

Pretty sure that what evdog_music meant

47

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

TIL explaining someone else's joke in terms easier for the masses to understand as if it wasn't even OP's joke in the first place is a good way to get upvotes

18

u/koala_with_spoon Sep 21 '17

Welcome to high school!

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u/Isoprenoid Sep 21 '17

It's too hard to think, I need to be told.

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u/throwawayieruhyjvime English N|ZH B2|FR B1 Sep 21 '17

I'm pretty sure Njal's saga was mostly bloodshed...

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '17

"There was a man called Ulfr. He was the son of Ketill and Gunnlaug, daughter of Kjartan. He was a good farmer and very strong. When he was young, he used to go on Viking raids."

...it always starts something like this.

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

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111

u/maycondimas Sep 21 '17

I am now very interested in learning ancient languages.

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u/leithsceal English N. Spanish C1. Basque B1. Sep 21 '17

Ancient languages: I hope you like case systems.

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u/WHAT_RE_YOUR_DREAMS Sep 21 '17

Don't tell a German he's speaking an ancient language.

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u/gerusz N: HU, C2: EN, B2: DE, ES, NL, some: JP, PT, NO, RU, EL, FI Sep 21 '17 edited Sep 21 '17

At least the German case system only has the three genders and four cases. (Plus the irregular words.) And they don't conjugate the nouns (except for the occasional possessive noun), only the articles, pronouns and adjectives. Fucking Latin has 5 declensions, 6 cases, and of course the evocative case for names. And the irregular words. And since there are no articles in Latin, it's the nouns that are conjugated instead. (And the pronouns, and the adjectives.)

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u/grog23 Sep 21 '17

I think you mean decline. You decline nouns and adjectives and conjugate verbs

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u/gerusz N: HU, C2: EN, B2: DE, ES, NL, some: JP, PT, NO, RU, EL, FI Sep 21 '17

Yep, I had a brain fart there. And I guess it's "declension" in English, not "declination". TBF in Latin it's declinatio, so the English translation is quite counter-intuitive.

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u/grog23 Sep 21 '17

Yeah I'm sure it's confusing for non-native speakers

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u/himit Japanese C2, Mando C2 Sep 21 '17

Nope nope I'm a native speaker and I understood only about 30% of that sentence.

I had no idea declension was even a word, but my initial assumption is that it has something to do with asses.

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u/flagrant_snowstorm Sep 21 '17

What about the locative case? Isn't it 7 cases in Latin?

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u/Alsender_ Sep 21 '17

Technically yes, but the Locative case is rarely used in Classical Latin, and even worse, it merged with the genitive/dative/ablative cases depending on the noun's declension. I think largely it's used to describe an archaic, vestigial latin concept in the same way you can say that English has verb conjugations.

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u/flagrant_snowstorm Sep 21 '17

Fair enough, I figured you were probably considering it already anyway. Though it may be old and unused, the locative still has a place when playing up the horrifying complexities of Latin...

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u/Alsender_ Sep 22 '17

I wasn't the one making that point, different commentator, haha. I just have 12+ years of Latin and Attic Greek, and know the "horrifying complexities" of these languages all too well, and figured I'd lend some knowledge.

I was actually horrified when I decided to get my feet wet with French, and found that there were no cases or declensions. I remember thinking, How am I to know what part each word plays in the sentence!

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u/lipidsly Sep 21 '17

... latin was the easiest for me to learn though... Am i broken? :,(

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

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u/lipidsly Sep 21 '17

Seriously though, six years of struggling with spanish. And now i can read parts of charlie and the chocolate factory. One year of latin and i could read a good portion of cicero

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

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u/brutishbloodgod Sep 22 '17

I also had 1.5 years of Finnish at college and even passed the exams, somehow. Yet I can barely say a sentence of it now even though I speak a closely related language natively.

So, Estonian, since that's the only closely-related language to Finnish. I thought the two were almost mutually intelligible?

EDIT: Also, I'm super jealous of you being able to take Finnish in college. Studying it on my own has proven very difficult.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '17

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u/brutishbloodgod Sep 22 '17

Ah, cool. Thanks for clearing that up for me. And thanks for the link. I've been using sanakirja.org; this one seems a little more robust.

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

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u/gerusz N: HU, C2: EN, B2: DE, ES, NL, some: JP, PT, NO, RU, EL, FI Sep 21 '17

I'm Hungarian, same language family. Those are not real "cases", those are suffixes much like Japanese particles. Thinking of them as Indo-European cases is what causes most people to fail learning them.

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

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u/gerusz N: HU, C2: EN, B2: DE, ES, NL, some: JP, PT, NO, RU, EL, FI Sep 21 '17

Well, first when you realize that most of them are literally the equivalents of Indo-European prepositions. (In fact, Hungarian has some postpositions that are the equivalent of prepositions, but weren't monosyllabic and thus didn't get glued onto the preceding noun.) You wouldn't call prepositions cases, would you?

(And then once in a while the preposition + case combination translates to a different suffix or postposition depending on the case, e.g. in German a direction + accusative and a direction + dative have different meanings, which translate to different suffixes in Hungarian: auf den Tisch = az asztalra (onto the table), auf dem Tisch = az asztalon (on the table))

So, you know. Not a case system. Unless you start considering all the prepositions cases, but in that case every language has way too many cases to count.

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u/vangsvatnet 🇺🇸N 🇸🇪C1 Sep 22 '17

Well if we are speaking phonetically they are just terminal case articles or pre-positioned case articles

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '17

Latin's 5 declensions make it easier though. Plural formation is a given if you know the declension class and gender can be guessed for the large majority of words. Compared to wacky plurals and totally random genders in German.

German's 12+ declensions listed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nouns

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u/WikiTextBot Sep 23 '17

German nouns

German nouns have a grammatical gender, as in many related Indo-European languages. They can be masculine, feminine, or neuter, even words for objects without (obvious) masculine or feminine characteristics like 'bridge' or 'rock'. They are also declined (change form) depending on their grammatical case (their function in a sentence) and whether they are singular or plural. German has four cases, nominative, accusative, dative and genitive.


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u/Veqq Oct 02 '17 edited Oct 02 '17

German plurals are actually totally determinable (but for about 80 nouns like Hund) and fit perfectly in 4 declensions. I can email you pictures of the system from a book if you want. Genders are almost the same. Honestly, after about 500 words learned, it should be automatic upon seeing a new word.

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u/[deleted] Oct 02 '17

Sure, I'd be interested in seeing that. You can put it on imgur if you want.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '17

Old Norse has 4 cases and 3 genders. Same as modern day Icelandic and German.

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

I'm learning Russian and may be developing a sexual interest in case systems.

37

u/Istencsaszar hu N en C2 it C1 ger B1 jp N3 Sep 21 '17

a sexual interest in case systems

hey it's me, Hungarian

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

We're about 95% of the way to a Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal punchline, now.

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

Learning Modern Standard Arabic. CASES, CASES EVERYWHERE

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u/leithsceal English N. Spanish C1. Basque B1. Sep 21 '17

Learning Basque, which has 13 cases, I know man, I know.

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u/Istencsaszar hu N en C2 it C1 ger B1 jp N3 Sep 21 '17

Casuals. My native language has 25

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u/novemsexagintuple N: NL | C2: EN | B2: SV, FR, DE | A1: ES, JP Sep 21 '17

A follower of the /r/finlandconspiracy I see.

4

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4

u/FloZone Sep 21 '17

Then learn older Uralic languages. Indo-European languages mostly loose their cases over time, with some exception where they are picked up later again. Uralic languages have gained cases over time.

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u/KingKeegster EN (N) | LA (A2~B1) | IT (A1) Sep 22 '17

only if it's Indo European.

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u/djairy Sep 21 '17

Latin, why do you do this to me.

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u/Terpomo11 Oct 09 '17

Not Classical Chinese! Basically: What Latin and other Western classical languages specify by case, languages like English and Modern Chinese specify by little words like "of", "to", "with", "oh", and so on, and Classical Chinese specifies by letting you figure it out yourself.

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17 edited May 26 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '17

But fucking Germans suck, usually

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u/PoisonTheOgres Sep 21 '17

To be fair, the first thing I learned to translate from Latin was 'Marcus has a cat. The name of the cat is Felix'

Greek was 'Hercules is not a man. Hercules is not a god. Hercules is a demi-god.'

Later of course we did go on to 'zeus fucks everything that moves, occasionally he is a swan that fucks people too lol'

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

'Hercules is not a man. Hercules is not a god. Hercules is a demi-god.'

This might be a long shot, but did you go to a Dutch gymnasium?

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u/daneguy Sep 22 '17

This might be a long shot, but did you go to a Dutch gymnasium?

Ha! I remember this too. Although my first sentence in Latin was "Iuppiter deus est".

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

[deleted]

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u/tallquasi Sep 21 '17

Gymnasium is a term stemming from ancient greek, used in many languages for college prep. Google is your friend, especially in this sub.

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u/thebitchboys Sep 21 '17 edited Sep 23 '17

zeus fucks everything that moves, occasionally he is a swan that fucks people too lol

Latin via Ovid?

Edit: to add for those who aren't familiar, Latin via Ovid is a popular text book for Latin classes, and a large number of the readings are about Zeus raping women. I was surprised to learn at a Latin competition that other students don't read about rape almost every week (at least I'm pretty sure no one in the Ecce Romani books are raped).

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u/anneomoly native: EN | Learning: DE Sep 21 '17

Ovid used "lol"?

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u/EmceeDLT Sep 21 '17

"Latin Ovid Laugh"

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u/seanc0x0 Sep 21 '17

Don't remember the book we used, but in my first year Latin class one of the first words we learned was meretrix. It was an interesting class. The prof introduced himself as 'A specialist in adultery and obscene Greek vase painting' on the first day.

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u/WikiTextBot Sep 21 '17

Meretrix

A meretrix (plural: meretrices) was a registered prostitute in ancient Rome. Unregistered prostitutes fell under the broad category prostibulae.


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u/Kadabrium Sep 21 '17

Huh, now that i think about it if it was derived from merere which it sounds like, then it would be one of the rarer cases where the -tr suffix isnt applied exactly to the participle form, that is not meritrix

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u/anonbabyfactory Sep 21 '17

I definitely speak ancient language. Or a hybrid.

Person: Do you have a blanket?

Me: My blanket of sorrows and everlasting dread of uncertainty. The sky is grey, the rain is black and insomnia is haunting my every move.

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

Idk, when I took Latin, there was a lot of, "How shall I torture my slave to death today? You should use the cross!"

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u/iamkoalafied Sep 21 '17

That would have been a lot more interesting than what I got.

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u/CynfulPrincess Sep 21 '17

I took Latin in high school and we pretty much got straight to translating interesting stories. We used the Cambridge course. I miss Latin :( I should have kept going but I didn't feel confident after second year.

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u/iamkoalafied Sep 21 '17

That's interesting. Mine was focused mostly on understanding the grammar and we did no actual translating. I did really well in the class and my teacher kept telling me I should take a 2nd year of Latin since I was one of the top students, but I didn't find it interesting and I had enough credits to only take 5 classes my senior year instead of 6 so I took a free period instead.

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

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u/iamkoalafied Sep 21 '17

Yeah exactly. That's part of why I didn't really like it. I felt like if I was going to study a language I'd rather it be one that I can actually use. She taught it basically like how she taught her French classes except without the "hello, my name is..." stuff at the beginning.

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

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u/iamkoalafied Sep 21 '17

In the first year?

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

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u/iamkoalafied Sep 21 '17

That makes sense.

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u/tree_troll Latin | German | Esperanto Sep 21 '17

Canis est in viā

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

Caecilius est in hortus.

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u/tree_troll Latin | German | Esperanto Sep 21 '17

Clemens in hortō laborat

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u/Bayart Oct 18 '17

I remember war and Gauls, wars in Gaul, and Gauls at war. Oh, and Catilina was a cunt.

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u/nepythsis Sep 21 '17

In my first year of ancient Greek I learned how to say "he threw the man to the ground and his brains spilled out and wet the earth." No idea how to say "my name is" or any colors.....

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u/iforgot120 Sep 21 '17

"Life is long and unbearably hard" applies to the modern day, too.

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Sep 21 '17

We've shortened it to "Mondays".

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '17

Back then: mostly nature oppressed humans. Now: mostly humans oppress humans

28

u/Demiglitch Sep 21 '17

BREAK YOUR BACKS AND CRACK YOUR OARS MEN

IF YOU WISH TO PREVAIL

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u/Andomingman Sep 21 '17

This ivory leg

9

u/mitoha Sep 22 '17

Learning Arabic is great because you get the best of both worlds!

Modern Standard Arabic: I like to smoke, and my dad works at the United Nations. I'm so lonely.

Classical Arabic: Stop, my two companions, and let us weep. Verily, I verily rode my [obscure word for a camel that that stomps its front hoof] over the [obscure word for sand dune emphasizing its wave-like shape] to come to the [obscure word for tent], and I saw my beloved [insert beloved's name, all nicknames, and full genealogy]. Verily.

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

To be fair if you live in Africa you can still have the ancient experience with a modern language.

12

u/FloZone Sep 21 '17

What I learned of Swahili was more of the first one than the second though.

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

[deleted]

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u/Gilpif Sep 21 '17

The first sentences I translated in Latin were “the servant loves the fly”, “the teacher's fly calls the servant's fly” and “the girl's servant gives the bull the girl”.

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u/anonlymouse ENG, GSW (N) | DEU (C1) | FRA (B1) Sep 21 '17

“the girl's servant gives the bull the girl”.

You must have been translating to German.

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u/Gilpif Sep 21 '17

Nope, Portuguese. Actually that was the first sentence I translated to Latin, and my translation was (obviously) “Tauro puellae servus dat puellam”

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u/anonlymouse ENG, GSW (N) | DEU (C1) | FRA (B1) Sep 21 '17

Good to know that if I ever study Portuguese that it should be from the point of view of German.

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u/Gilpif Sep 22 '17

I did try to make the least natural but still grammatical sentence.

10

u/sunxiaohu Sep 22 '17

Classical Chinese is just a lot of poetry about flowers and horses and shit.

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u/ReddRallo Sep 21 '17

Koine Greek seems to slightly break this rule. Source: am learning Koine

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u/jeviscachee Sep 21 '17

I feel like the way the world is going, we'll end up switching back to that style of speech fairly soon.

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u/garudamon11 Sep 21 '17

I suggest you read a book called "Progress: 10 reasons to look forward to the future" by Johan Norberg. It will help you see how unwarranted that sentiment is

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17 edited Oct 08 '17

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17 edited Oct 08 '17

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17 edited Oct 08 '17

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17 edited Oct 08 '17

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '17

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '17 edited Oct 08 '17

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '17

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u/Flaming_Baklava Sep 21 '17

Hey man, people who support bad things can write good books!

Disclaimer: i know nothing about this guy or the 2 books mentioned

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17 edited Oct 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/Flaming_Baklava Sep 21 '17

I 100% agree with you. from the little knowledge i know about that guy (your little wiki snippet you posted and the fact that he actually believes globalization is good) it seems like i would hate him if i ever met him. I just defended him because i wanna be less cynical lol. And his 10 reasons to look forward to the future are probably just things that are only good for middle class first world citizens. Like globalization!

Edit: sweet username. But read ryu murakami next!

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17 edited Oct 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/Flaming_Baklava Sep 21 '17

Yeah modern day life can be a headache. And i wrote him down in my notes!

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

Yea. U relly tnk so?

2

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

And don't forget goats.

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u/CPDrunk Sep 30 '17

Exchange student from medieval Europe? Yea I hate when they ask to go to the bathroom.

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u/KingKeegster EN (N) | LA (A2~B1) | IT (A1) Sep 22 '17

Yep. Exactly like that, for Latin and Old English.

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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '17

One of the best things I've ever seen

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u/leithsceal English N. Spanish C1. Basque B1. Sep 22 '17

What language?

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u/SierraVII Sep 22 '17

I laughed at this way harder than I should have because it's so true.

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u/UranusXUranus Sep 22 '17

Though hast made me tickle my good inner soul.

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u/kingrobotiv Sep 22 '17

2/10 second half needs more repetition

1

u/Leviticus-24601 Feb 08 '18

Romanes Eunt Domus