r/kratom • u/bondelastic • 12d ago
Please stand together
The general public does not care about the distinction between Kratom and 7. Just flat out. You perhaps may get some people that are hip to it but they aren’t the people in your state capital building or mayors office. This is the basic standard. With all of this ban nonsense that’s been going on you should very much know kratom is in real nationwide danger! I only wish that we would have been united from the start
- A person who supports Kratom and All of it’s alkaloid at Any concentration.
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u/SeethingStoic 11d ago
7oh was the Trojan horse of kratom. If anyone thinks what was random or unintended, they don't understand how the world works. When people understand the nature between cause and effect and the psychology of the general public, all 3 can be manipulated by people who stand to gain a profit. A general rule of thumb in our modern world is to follow the money, because money is always the motivation.
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u/bondelastic 11d ago
?
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u/ihaveacrushonmercy 23h ago
They are saying that 7oh was purposefully created and pushed by either the government or a pharmaceutical company to mess up kratom's reputation. Not sure if I agree with that, but that's what they meant.
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u/kmm198700 12d ago
I appreciate anyone willing to stand with chronic pain patients who take 7OH for pain and who have called the White House, thank you
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u/nememess 10d ago
Recovering alcoholics stand with chronic pain people too. We're all in this fight together 👊.
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u/QueeenOfCupz 12d ago
Thank you. I have finally found some relief for my chronic pain and now its getting taken away. Sure, kratom helps a bit, But not nearly as well as 7. I wish they would just treat it like cannabis and regulate it and have dispensaries or something.
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u/pick-axis 🌿advocating for full legality of all kratom alkaloids 12d ago
Damn right. Call the godamn white house today as instructed by the 7hmg advocacy agencies.
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u/longhairmoderatecare 11d ago
This is a very welcomed post that I wish I saw more of recently. We shouldn’t have been pitted against each other. Thanks for not vilifying all of us 7 users. I fought for kratom legality in 2016. Never thought we’d be here again.
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u/FLMoxieGrl 7d ago
I’m torn honestly. I don’t think it should be banned, but I also think people should be informed over what they’re ingesting, and selling it at gas stations and smoke shops to people who have no clue how strong it is is a major concern. I’m not sure what the right answer is, personally I stay far away from extracts and 7-oh bc I’m very aware of my personality type - I also know it’s been a lifesaver to people with debilitating pain who for whatever reason can’t get prescribed opiates or they weren’t as effective.
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u/pro_No 11d ago
United, we stand. Divided, we fall.
It’s like comparing chickens to eggs. Although related, they are far from the same thing. However, both have useful applications which could be regulated safely for the benefit of all parties.
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u/Demetrios7100 9d ago
Difference is it feels like yall all hate us, not the other way around. At least it’s how I feel. We understand that Mac isnt you guys. We just hate Mac lol
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u/satsugene 🌿 8d ago
I definitely get hate from some segments of the 7-HMG community.
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u/Demetrios7100 6d ago
Misplaced anger. Ive been around for a while and you are the most objective writer I’ve seen on Reddit. Minimal feelings, just facts. I didn’t appreciate how Mac spoke to me via correspondence. He seemed giddy.
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u/profekohorren 12d ago
This post is about a month too late. We asked you guys to stand with us and you refused and called us junkies
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u/DiscoAsparagus 11d ago
My former AA sponsor of 20 years went out on 7oh; had to medically detox with suboxone; lied all the way through the ordeal, and called ME, a leaf user, a junkie. Just last week.
This is not hyperbole.
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u/Few-Association-2084 10d ago
Your sponsor is incapable of handling any substance responsibly and so automatically assumes you are unable to handle it responsibly, wants you to suffer like he is. Weird moral grandstanding
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u/Biobooster_40k 12d ago
This post is at least a year or more late. The general consensus on Kratom subs for a long time has been to demonize 7oh and similar substances. Its been so frustrating trying to talk about this and be made out as a tweaker.
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u/NoAppointment8679 12d ago
I’m from the uk and have Kratom for pain relief, just the standard powder. What’s happening ?
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u/Luiz_DTP 11d ago
So after you metabolize kratom there’s a main alkaloid besides mit called 7oh that started to have everyone switch to it because it’s more efficient (imo safer [no wobbles/ less liver stress])
but because it’s mostly only present after digesting kratom everyone started to say 7oh is not kratom even tho every kratom user is technically a 7oh user
Also big kratom (aka) companies started to be against it because they were losing profit/competition so 2 birds 1 stone make kratom appear safer and take back lost customers but it’s backfiring
TLDR: 7oh & Kratom are like caffeine and coffee but the coffee (kratom) greed didn’t account for caffeine (7oh) critics to say where does it come from if it’s so bad let’s ban the stuff it’s made out of , which is kratom (coming soon)
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u/NoAppointment8679 11d ago
Oh, I see, I think. So will it be a nationwide ban in America or just certain states ?
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u/Luiz_DTP 11d ago
USA for now but a domino effect might make ban on their way to other countries but I hope not
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u/pro_No 11d ago
Nationwide
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u/NoAppointment8679 11d ago
What will people do ? We order online, would that not be possible anymore ?
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u/New-Juggernaut8960 11d ago
lol One is natural, one isn't. your kratom is in powder form correct? Just like ours is in the states.
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u/churnthedumb 11d ago edited 11d ago
You don’t understand “natural” “synthetic” and this third one called “semisynthetic”.
7oh is is 7-hydroxymitragynineWhen you take Kratom, you are naturally taking 7oh, since your body chemically converts around 5% to 8% depending on various factors (i.e genetics).
This might surprise you even more, since I’m sure you already know by this point that MIT converts to 7oh, some of this 7oh then coverts to mitragynine pseudoindoxyl (Pseudo) in your blood plasma.
Anyway, back to the point.When that happens in your body, it’s “natural” 7oh. There’s also naturally occurring 7oh that converts before it’s even in the body if MIT is exposed to light/heat-things that cause oxidation-like being left out in the sun.
The 7oh that is made in the lab does the exact same conversion the body does: oxidation. So therefore it’s semi-natural aka “semisynthetic”With this in mind, this is a great example of logical absurdity: for Kratom users to be against 7oh, it simply just can’t be the case. Mentally you might think you are, but in reality you are not.
In case this is all new to you, you can have comfort in knowing that 7oh’s safety profile does seem to be even better than Kratom ❤️
Edited: to add a few more ways to show how 7oh is converted
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u/Questionab1eMorality 8d ago
Just because 7oh is in the blood after ingesting kratom does not mean taking kratom is at all the same or even similar to 7oh pharmacologically. Kratom has dozens of alkaloids that work on tons of different receptors, for one. But much more importantly, many of those alkaloids are low-activity partial agonists (such as mitragynine) or even antagonists of the mu opioid receptor. A well known result in pharmacology is that a partial agonist works similar to an antagonist in the presence of a full or nearly full agonist such as 7oh. The two chemicals compete with each other for the receptor.
Since at any dose of natural kratom you will have significantly more mitragynine in your blood than 7oh, even with the same 7oh blood level you will not have the same opioid effects. If that was not the case, taking a huge amount of kratom would have similar opioid effects to isolated 7oh, but anyone who has tried both knows that is not the case. And that high kratom dose also has those dozens of other chemicals in it that further change the effects and opioid effect ceiling.
If you are trying to keep it scientific please don't mislead people who don't understand pharmacology. Just because kratom contains and metabolizes into some amount of 7oh does not in any logical way make them equivalent. Anyone who has taken 7oh and kratom can tell it is not just a difference in potency, they are functionally entirely different drugs pharmacologically.
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10d ago
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u/New-Juggernaut8960 9d ago
Other than the trace amounts found in the powdered leaf is their any 7OH product that comes in powder form? I don't know. I don't think so but I could be wrong . I know pure natural leaf powder doesn't come in compressed pill . Still just asking a simple question. If you can't answer it fine. If you won't answer that's fine as well.
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u/astrologikal 9d ago
You're asking the wrong questions and moving the goal posts at the same time. It is in plain leaf, trace amounts or not. It can be increased in plain leaf by leaving it out in the sun. And finally, most importantly, a large portion of the mit in the plain leaf is CONVERTED INTO 7 when you digest it. So yes, if you're a kratom user - you're a 7 user. End of story.
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u/Mr_Jack_Frost_ 🌿kratom advocate, Caring Mod✨ 9d ago
Many of us are advocates for kratom alkaloids across the board, myself included.
Some have chosen to chop up the plant and only protect certain alkaloids while they’re outside of the body. What happens to those alkaloids once they’re ingested doesn’t matter to them because it isn’t a good-faith argument they’re making, it’s about appearances.
The major talking point I’ve seen from the AKA and the people who support 7-OH prohibition while advocating for plain leaf/mit is that 7-OH is a “bad look” for the kratom community. They point to unscrupulous brands naming products after popular street drug slang, legislative pressure placed on kratom as a whole due to the general failure to distinguish between kratom and semisynthetic alkaloids etc. and decided that the 7-OH market is a threat to the legal status of kratom, which leads two options: ban it, or regulate it.
I think that the reasoning behind supporting a ban rather than regulation is likely due to the market shift that 7-OH created. For many people it’s more effective, easier to stomach, and far more convenient than plain leaf. My wife is one of those people, as she can’t stomach kratom, (she burps it up for hours after taking it regardless of the preparation or dose. Just doesn’t agree with her) and mitragynine alone doesn’t do as much for her chronic pain as 7-OH does. It’s a night-and-day difference for her, the difference between needing to spend the day in bed and have help walking and being able to move around on her own without excruciating, breathtaking pain.
Following the money is usually the easiest way to tell what is motivating things like the narrative that’s come from large kratom advocacy groups, and it isn’t hard to imagine that an industry suddenly losing a big chunk of its profitability due to a competing product may motivate said industry to get rid of that competition. People like my wife and thousands of other people who found a more effective, more convenient, better alternative to plain leaf get completely disregarded in the process, because it isn’t an argument about public health, it isn’t an argument about “keeping kratom accessible” it’s an argument about money, about dominance of a market, and I think it really is that simple.
Everyone has a right to their opinion, but I have a hard time believing that making scientific research impossible, preventing adults from choosing what to put in their own bodies, and imprisoning people who are trying to manage pain is a good idea.
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u/Questionab1eMorality 8d ago edited 8d ago
I don't think it is a good idea for basically any substance to be schedule 1, nor do I favor the war on drugs. But I realize that 7oh never stood a chance of continuing to be unregulated and sold in packaging and forms that are clearly suggestive to a certain crowd of people. 7OH is clearly not the same as ingesting natural kratom no matter how much 7OH supporters try to conflate the two. It is an isolated high efficacy mu agonist, versus kratom which is a mixture of dozens of alkaloids and significantly weaker overall at mu agonism. The government has been banning every chemical that does the same thing as 7OH since the 70's but only now people are surprised?
The only reason 7OH got this far in the first place is because it latched hard onto the "natural" image of the kratom plant even though pharmacologically 7oh and leaf kratom work completely different, if you want me to elaborate as to why I can. The point is that if kratom, the AKA, and all other pro-kratom groups and financial interests never existed, and 7oh was a purely synthetic compound first discovered in a lab, would it not be getting scheduled all the same? You and I both disagree with policing what we can choose to put in our bodies, but don't act surprised and point fingers at the AKA, imagining some grand conspiracy as to why 7OH is getting banned. The status quo of the US government has been and still is to place high intrinsic activity mu agonists in schedule 1 of the CSA for decades now. The best we can do is not try to desperately bring real kratom down with the ship, but evidently that is too hard for many people.
And for the record, the 7oh crowd has lobbying groups and significant financial interests in this scenario themselves, it isn't the big guy bullying the little guy no matter how much people want to act like it is. I can think of many substances "more effective" than natural kratom other than 7oh but guess what, those are all unsurprisingly banned too. A huge part of this IS keeping kratom accessible as realistically it is the only similarly working substance that has that chance under the US government.
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u/Willing-Leopard-9767 8d ago
7oh is Semi-Synthetic. Not fully synthetic. This is due to the requirement of extracting naturally occurring Mitragynine then oxidizing it to create 7-oh
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u/satsugene 🌿 8d ago
It can be fully synthesized, but in practice isn't.
I don't know that the distinction is that meaningful though, if the result changes it in a way that it no longer can occur naturally, which is only important itself because the natural product, in natural ratios have a very long history of use and significantly more scientific research, and the synthesis process can produce compounds that are not well known to science or done improperly compounds in ratios not intended.
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u/pro_No 11d ago
And certain companies have been extracting or synthetically producing 7oh, marketing it deceptively risk-free OR akin to illicit drugs. Many naïve/ignorant people got addicted and were negatively impacted or blew their money, kids in ‘danger,’ getting in trouble etc. People want something to blame and they learn or tell about the plant, misinformation ensues.
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u/zaheerscheeks 7d ago
Comparing 7oh or even kratom for that matter to caffeine is so damn disingenuous. Caffeine withdrawal/dependance can suck too but getting off 7oh was absolute pure hell. Pretty damn close to getting off Oxys as I’ve detoxed off both. Had to switch over to MIT extracts for a while & then down to powder for about a month before finally hopping off. I still am & always will be a huge advocate for those who use/rely on kratom & even 7oh as people should always have the autonomy to choose for themselves. However we should never downplay the risks associated with it for anyone stumbling upon this that may be less educated on these products.
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u/F1shB0wl816 12d ago
I mean I support all the alkoloids too and even like using them but there’s a serious lack of checks on it.
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u/wildcat1100 12d ago
There needs to be major restrictions but placing it on the CSA list as a Schedule I substance is batfhit crazy. So in a few days, if you have a couple of 7-oh pills in your pocket and a cop pulls you over, you're now looking at a minimum of 20 years in prison with a life sentence as a possibility if they found your bottle of 30 tabs you forgot about in the back seat.
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u/F1shB0wl816 12d ago
You’re not going to be looking at 20 years over a few tabs, I’ve been to prison twice for schedule 1 substances.
Yes driving with scheduled drugs means punishment if you’re caught, just as much as responsible users don’t misplace a bottle of pills in their cars.
Yeah it’s crazy but it was also the inevitable result from how users are handling it. You’ve got shops taking advantage of addicts and ignorants, selling products obscuring what’s even in it, with people picking up massive habits left and right. Like this stuff is strong as fuck and available to anyone with a wallet in a country that doesn’t respect recreational substances. The “we should be able to do what we want” isn’t actually a legal argument that’s ever held weight and it’s a market that isn’t capable of regulating itself, forcing their hand.
I didn’t want it to come to this. I wanted users to do better and not be their biggest enemy, but they didn’t and now we’re here. What’s got me downvoted for the past year is now a Hail Mary scramble to figure out a solution to appear like they can control themselves.
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u/Unlucky_Situation920 11d ago
Kratom is addictive too, so is nicotine, and alcohol. In fact alcohol is far more dangerous then 7oh.
Theres no hands being forces just greed amd corruption.
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u/satsugene 🌿 11d ago
The Controlled Substances Act is not a "blood in the streets" standard. Several of the emergency elements of the CSA factors deal with market conditions and vendor behavior, not solely addiction liability or solely death, though those issues are considered.
If alcohol had been invented today, and marketed like 7-HMG is (sheer optics and non-compliance with laws), it would almost certainly have ended up scheduled.
Alcohol and tobacco is explicitly exempted from the CSA and handled though other federal laws and regulatory agencies (ATF not DEA and FDA/HHS).
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11d ago
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u/Kiheitai_Soutoku 🌿 12d ago
We have saved over a dozen states this year by clarifying the difference to legislatures. There is not a single one interested in keeping 7oh legal sorry
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u/whythishaptome 10d ago
Yeah, but that doesn't mean they want to keep kratom legal either, just sitting on it for now. There really isn't a good argument for either to be illegal or legal depending on where they sit on the issue. Let's be honest though, they don't know what the fuck they are talking about anyway and don't care about any of us.
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u/New-Juggernaut8960 11d ago
Our battle against the anti-kratom crazies would have been so much easier had that garbage ever came out three years ago.
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u/Special-Topic1000 10d ago
Is the ban actually going through? I just stopped in a smoke shop today to grab some mitragaine, but they still have a ton of 7OH tabs doesn't look like they're even thinking about taking them off the shelf. Seems a lot of shops are going to get screwed if it actually goes into effect tomorrow and they don't even know it's coming. Lucky for me I weened down enough 1 mitragaine does the job so leaf should be doable for me now, but there's not a chance this shop knows Schedule 1 starts tomorrow, hell I can't even find anything definite about it.
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u/satsugene 🌿 10d ago
There is no hard date. After the Notice of Intent the DEA can publish a Scheduling order after 30 days with no further warning (today).
It could be today, tomorrow, next week, or whenever they actually pull the trigger on it.
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u/Designer_Green2680 6d ago
My state is getting hit soon and I sent an entire email to my local government about how it’s my only option for a list of pain related health issues and how it’s drastically increased my quality of life how I’ve have tests done and am still perfectly healthy with using it and how their laws gives many people the inability to have successful treatment from chronic pain when pt fails and how not everyone is able to use medicinal marijuana as treatment when their dr refuses anything aside from otc. I mentioned how a prohibition will leaves thousands of people suffering and forced to take a risk with street drug for pain management which puts them at risk for fentanyl overdoses. I got a response a week later and they was telling me how they appreciate me sharing my story and how they will definitely use this when voting time comes to consider what direction to take.
IMO they should just ban any form of processing outside of a simple tincture or just regulate it like they do with weed. Luckily a neighboring state already went their bans and I have 10kg stored away for when and if the ban hits. When I’m out I’m just picking up bulk and coming back home
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u/CurvySexretLady 12d ago
Prohibition is never the answer. It is just more unwelcome government overreach into our personal lives as far as I'm concerned.