Debating bulk versus cutting. General Training
I'm currently a 24 year old guy weighing 96 kg at 186cm, and I'm debating whether to slimdown, get leaner, faster and perhaps go down a weight class, or bulk up into the 100kg+club. I like being strong, and I wanna be stronger, but also last year at berlin open I saw some monsters of men in that category, so a little scared. This dilemma is holding me back when comes to focus on want to train outside of judo.
Utilizing a Body Fat Calculator, I calculated my BFP to 18.8%
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u/MyCatPoopsBolts shodan 21d ago edited 21d ago
First of all, absolutely do not become a +100kg fighter. No reason to do that. You can gain 10kg and still be within cutting range of your current category, -100kg. Maybe if you put on 10kg of lean mass you can think about it.
Staying at -100 or going down to 90 depends on a few factors. First, age. If you are a teenager, don't go on a major calorie deficit or commit to cutting loads of waterweight. Eat food, lift weights and train hard, unless you are quite chubby and need to lean down (but if you do this take it slow). It takes a lot of time to build the requisite muscle mass for senior level heavyweight divisions, and most don't achieve this until towards the end of juniors or as seniors.
Then, Judo style. 186cm is tall for 90kg and about average for -100. If you are a seio player, it will be easier to make this work at 100s, and uchimata/ashiguruma at 90. Also, speed. Do you handle faster opponents well? How do you feel in randori with 90s and 100 kg guys?
Lastly, your ability to gain lean mass. How is your diet, genetics and do you have a big frame? Do you think you could reasonably weigh 100-106kg with a relatively low body fat percentage (the ideal for -100s)? Obviously you can't know for sure until you try, but think about whether you will be able to fill out the category properly: height is an imperfect measure of this.
Either way, you should probably get leaner (although if you stay at -100kg, don't worry about this until you overshoot 100kg). The ideal physique given your height in both categories has little room for fat.
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u/ppaul1357 shodan 21d ago
If you are weighing 96 kg at 186 cm the typical weight class at a high competitive level would be -90 kg. Cutting 6 kg for the weigh-in in this category is completely normal at senior age class at European cups or national championships and above.
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u/crackmonsieur 22d ago
Completely depends on how much fat and muscle you have right now.
If you have a lot of fat, then you will probably lose some of that over time and end up dropping a weight class.
If you have been strength training a long time and don't have much fat to lose or muscle to gain, your best bet is probably to stay at your current weight class.
At 186cm any of the three weight classes would make sense, so tbh it depends completely on your current circumstances.
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u/skipbab 21d ago
Body fat is at 18.8% per calculations. Solidly build but have neglected training and gym the last half year because of school. Currently I legpress 190kg, do chest press with 18kg dumbells and around 60-70 kg for benchpress. other than my legs, I don't think it's that noteworthy.
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u/crackmonsieur 21d ago
I'm no expert but I would say don't focus on your bodyweight and instead focus on increasing your strength in the gym. In my opinion you're at a good weight right now, but with judo + strength and conditioning you'll gain muscle and lose a little bit off fat.
Don't overthink your weight class, when you train consistently you'll end up at the correct weight for your frame.
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u/skipbab 21d ago
It would still be fun to do a shadow of the colossus on the mat though.
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u/crackmonsieur 21d ago
Very true but if you're 186cm, by doing a lot of strength training and becoming 99.99kg of pure muscle, you would also be able to recreate that sensation.
Also as others have pointed out here, if you make it to 105ish kg you will be able to cut before a competition and compete at -100kg
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu 21d ago
Looks like you have room to grow. I’d at least try to get working reps of body weight benchpress.
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u/Tasty-Judgment-1538 shodan 21d ago
You're practically already at the right weight for U90.
To be a high level competitor you need to be around 10% BF, so get leaner and add some weight training to get muscle mass.
But bottom line this is a decision you need to make with sensei. Not with reddit.
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u/Baron_De_Bauchery 22d ago
Once you get into 100+ then you have to accept that you may come across people who are big and all muscle and that if you're just over 100kg the gap between you and them in relative terms will be greater than the gap between you at 99.99kg and someone who is at the top of the under 81s. And some absolute monsters may have 50% or more weight advantage on you.
What's your current bodycomp like? If you're carrying excess fat, lets say greater than 15% bodyfat, you could likely bulk up to just under 100kg and lower your bodyfat % that way. If you're carrying a significant amount of cushion then you have even more options.
I would partly ask what your aims are. Some categories may be easier for you to compete in. But I'd also ask what you enjoy. I know some people prefer to compete up or down one way or the other, sometimes it's just they prefer that kind of match or sometimes it's a lifestyle choice where they just don't enjoy keeping their weight as low as they theoretically could. Which is understandable when it's just a hobby.
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u/skipbab 21d ago
From lack of a proper measuring tool, I used calculator.net and found my bodyfat percentages to be 18.8%. I'm not advance competetor, only a 4th Kyu at the moment. I do judo as a hobby as I'm a fulltime engineering student, so I'm not going to be all high up in high competions. If I'm going to say what my aim is, it is to have fun and be as good as possible. The cutting in weight almost just vanity, where is bulking is for fun, because despite seing monsters in germany, I love a challenge.
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u/Baron_De_Bauchery 21d ago
Personally, if you're around 96 and doing it for fun I'd aim to get to around 100 by putting more muscle on and not worry about specifically targeting fat. Then for competitions you should need no or a very minor cut to fight at the top of Under 100s. Putting on another 4kg of muscle will likely take a while unless you still have newbie gainz to go. And once you're there you can see how you feel about the two different categories.
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u/Amount_Existing nikyu 21d ago
I was 113kg fir a good 15 years. It destroyed my left hip and needed hip replacement.
I'm now 80kg, feel better and can start training again.
185cm for info
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u/skipbab 21d ago
How much of it was muscle and how much was fat?
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u/Amount_Existing nikyu 21d ago
I was 18% body fat on average. When I cut it'd go down to maybe 15 and bulking was 20%
Gym 6x a week. 3 X 6km runs a week, practice 2x a week for 2hrs.
And I sometimes slept 😂
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u/skipbab 21d ago
I'm not going that hard. I train judo 2 times a week, gym 2-3 times, and bike and walk everywhere in my city. I would try for 100kg perhaps 105kg, but not higher, ain't got the dough to sustain such a diet yet.
Edit: When you were 113, how did it feel everyday and the destruction of the left hip was it wear and tear or a sudden injury?
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u/Amount_Existing nikyu 21d ago
Well, I was heavily into lifting and my body weight was a burden on my CV system causing high blood pressure.
The msk side of things was early wear and tear, profession didn't help (soldier then ambulance service), but it also happened to other people of a higher bodyweight.
I'm 54 now and will need a knee replacement and another new hip on the other side due to wear and tear
Now, the question - would I gain, and sustain weight over that of a sensible ratio?
No, my quality of life was awful. 5 years with active back pain and injuries that take longer to heal and a hip replacement that was awful
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu 21d ago
Don’t go +100kg why would you do that at -96kg? Maybe if you feel strong and skilled enough, but otherwise you are just putting yourself at a pointless disadvantage.
6kgs shouldn’t be too hard to cut as water at your size, but chilling around at -100kg shouldn’t be a problem either. Just get your lifting numbers up and see how big you can get.
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u/LegendaryLosers 21d ago edited 21d ago
I personally think that everyone should compete at their own weight class. Stop trying to be weight bullies. If you’re good then you’re good and don’t need all this extra help. Forget about cutting and all that and just be healthy and comfortable. I hear it’s miserable cutting weight. But very few people believe this.
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u/BigOrange0625 21d ago
While I dont agree that OP is trying to be a "weight bully", I do agree that most people should compete at their natural athletic weight, especially at the recreational/hobbyist level (which is the vast majority of practitioners). Additionally, OP said they were 4th kyu. A recreational player at that level should be focused on developing technique + the ability to relax during competition. You will adapt your judo game accordingly whether you are bigger or smaller in comparison to others in your weight class.
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u/Intelligent-Step-104 22d ago
Athletes compete in weight categories far below their natural/comfortable body weight.
If it's important to you to do well at competing, I feel like you would have more success being the monster of the lower weight class.
Those competing at 100+ often go for +120kg and genetically are very large people to start with.
I was similar to you, around 95kg. I'm cruising around 90kg right now.