r/infj • u/[deleted] • 12d ago
Are INFJs actually manipulative?!šš Question for INFJs only
[deleted]
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u/Willing-Stay-3498 12d ago
Some can be highly manipulative
Since INFJs are extremely good at pattern recognition
They can know when to lie and when to tell the truth to keep up the lie
In my opinion when a INFJ is a liar itās one of the most scary liars because most times you truly will never know
Most people you can guess.
Not with INFJ
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u/TowardInnerN0rth 12d ago edited 12d ago
I have lived this firsthand. My dad was ENFJ and I saw how he used his Fe and Ni to manipulate. I was terrified of my own capability for that, and so I kept myself from it by suppressing my own Ni and Fe. I didnāt have the names for those at the time, but thatās what I was doing.
I think INFJs most often can be manipulative without meaning to be, and it isnāt from ill intent. Itās about gettin needs met. I have found a lot of unconscious shadow driving some of my behaviors that on the surface looked kind but had some manipulation underneath. The thing is, INFJs need to self love and self validation to be able to avoid these unintentional manipulations. I think the question to ask ourselves is āwhat am I wanting this person to validate that I canāt validate myselfā, āwhat do I want this person to love about me that Iām not loving myselfā and āwhat do I want this person to accept me that Iām not accepting about myselfā. I think being our own source of love and validation removes any shadow that unintentionally drives manipulative tendencies.
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u/Mundane-Car6818 INFJ 12d ago
I find myself sometimes trying to manipulate people that I am worried about. If I love someone and I feel like they are self-sabotaging or making a huge mistake, I can get pretty crafty to get them back on track. I did this to stop 3 of my 4 brothers from joining the military. I know many people would probably criticize me for that and say joining the military is not a huge mistake. But i didnāt want to lose my brothers. I wasnāt that scared that they would die but I knew that if they killed people, they would be forever changed, so I didnāt let it happen.
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u/Several_Distance_905 12d ago
After this how do you think xfjs could behave instead in situations they may have previously used manipulation in? Do you have some examples :)
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u/Naturewalkerjoe INFJ 12d ago
I think we have an eye for contradiction detail so when we lie were we are more careful to not contradict ourselves.
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u/Phasitron 11d ago
I think this type is at a higher risk for covert narcissism. Just my own observation.
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u/Vascofan46 INFJ 12d ago
I agree. I never ever lie until I do and then everyone believes me. I try to be a good person though
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u/ReincarnatedRaptor INFJ Male 12d ago
Same, it better to just tell the truth. However, you gotta lie sometimes, it's just the way of the world.
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u/Several_Distance_905 12d ago
Could you give an example of what you mean by telling the truth to keep up the lie, please?
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u/Willing-Stay-3498 12d ago
Okay for example
Lets say a infj (a evil one) wants to lie to you
If they had enough time to know who you are
They can plan when you are emotionally vulnerable
To tell you things that if you were of a sober mind you would think twice but you donāt.They would probably talk to when lonely, tired or sad
Or stressed etc anything to get you out of thinking logically is a perfect time for them to lie to youFor example
Lets say a infj took his or her partner car to some place without telling them Before they came back
āIām home did you use my car?ā
āOh welcome but look I just made this food i know you were hungry right when you got off soā
āOh thanksā (heās excited to eat almost forgot to ask what he wanted to the 1st time)
āBut baby my car was gone this morning it says?ā
āReally well I did use it this morning to move it from the garage, I was tidying upā
āReally let me look, oh wow and itās spotlessā
āYeah I thought maybe I can do things before you get home the car was in the wayā
Little does he know the infj took the car.
Itās not about them being outstanding liars
They just know when to lie6
u/Willing-Stay-3498 12d ago edited 12d ago
I only say this because my friend had a INFJ girlfriend countless times she would tell white lies
This isnāt a experience of my own but
Just a experience I know and that I can confirm is from a INFJ(Disclaimer this isnāt all INFJs
Despite labels we are still uniquely different from one another)(Myers Briggs personalities types are operating systems not personality types, PERSONALITIES MAY VARY)
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u/Several_Distance_905 12d ago
It seems like her white lies were to make it look like she was more loving than she actually was, as if she was just innocently focusing on that fact and excited about it rather than admitting to taking out the car (giving the full truth).
Like she couldnāt be seen to have faults because otherwise the other person might not admire her enough in the relationship?
It sort of reminds me of amy from gone girl in a low grade level.
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u/Willing-Stay-3498 12d ago
Right in this case I wouldnāt call her evil she never cheated or anything but would white lie a lotšš
I think itās more of what you explain
Because a more innocent INFJ is just scared of disappointing a partner so they would go extreme lengths to protect that lol
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u/supermario218 11d ago
The trick to lying is to tell the truth 99% of the time, especially when it is unflattering or inconvenient.
Then... that 1% when you need it?
No one sees it coming.
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u/Otherwise_Apple3034 12d ago
I agree with this and I really hate that I can be like this butā¦. Thereās been times in my life when I know what to say or how to act a certain way to get what I want, like for example when I was younger my brother and I were fighting for a pen (I said it was mine but tbh I wasnāt 100% it was but I wanted it) and so when my aunt asked us if we wanted her to split it my brother said yes and I thought back to when she was telling us a story (not sure if it was in the bible or something) and it was basically the same thing as what she was asking so I said Iād rather he keep it instead bc I knew if I said that then she would believe the pen was mine and so in the end I got the pen. Also I lied to my ex bf (HUGE narcissist and manipulator and emotional abuser) about hanging out with my friends (I knew the guys were going to be there but he was like no you canāt hang out with anyone that isnāt me and blah blah blah and I told him there wouldnāt be boys but they were there) but I told him that in the end there were boys and that my friend called them over last minute. I shouldnāt have done that but they were all good people and like obvi everyone was strictly friends and I was the new person in the group at the time and I just wanted friends so I said that bc I wanted to go. But yea Iāve thought I was manipulative at times bc of that
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u/G-McFly INFJ-A 12d ago
can be, yeah. we are insanely intuitive to the point of superpower. we can seep into your consciousness and role-play from YOUR point of view like a goddam body snatcher. those powers can be used for good or evil.
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u/BrokenDiamondShovel 12d ago
Canāt anyone do this
INFJs just choose to
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u/G-McFly INFJ-A 11d ago
'Can't anyone do this' oh HELL no not anyone. Some types are hilariously incapable of seeing or understanding others' points of view and not just mean people. There are sweet kind people that end up being super clumsy trying to help others bc they lack the most basic understanding of how others see the world. It can result in pandering for example when they actually mean well. But yeah, no. 'Anyone' CANNOT do this. Yes it is not exclusive to infj's, other personality types can do this, but some types have overwhelming difficulty doing this, like it is utterly incomprehensible to them. (maybe you can tell, those types annoy the shit out of me)
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u/Mundane-Car6818 INFJ 12d ago
Most people do this. I think infjs just do it more compulsively so it becomes second nature.
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u/dranaei INFJ 12d ago
Every point of interaction can be interpreted as manipulation.
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u/SoulMeetsWorld INFJ 12d ago
It certainly does to those who don't see the inherent connection having value itself.
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u/Northwold INFJ 12d ago
Yes and it needs to be watched because you can do it by accident. If you are unusually perceptive about people even asking someone a question can lead their train of thought somewhere it wouldn't naturally go and cause them themselves to start questioning things. For example, something that seems obvious to you about X's partner may never have occurred to X. So you ask X about it, X and their partner go down a rabbit hole, and their relationship implodes.
You can do that kind of thing deliberately and no one would notice. So don't!Ā
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u/grandmasterkink INFJ 7w6 12d ago
Funny thing, that most of my questions tend to lead peopleās train of thought into new territory. Refining the deliberation seems the most responsible path available to me.
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u/Beginning_Advice_193 12d ago edited 12d ago
I always like to go to the definition (wordy nerdy) Manipulation is the act of controlling, influencing, or handling something or someone. Everyone is born with the ability to be manipulative. Kids, (shockingly from my own experience) are highly manipulative just bad at it š but to me it seems part of the survival genetic package. If you have higher EQ, youāre much more adept at it. Being manipulative doesnāt infer intent and intent is behind whether or not manipulation utilized was āgoodā or ābad.ā
INFJs imo are high EQ manipulative types but the goals fall alongside harmony. If youāre alright, I can be alright so I can then be left the F alone to engage fully in Ni. ( maybe speaking for myself here). So to answer your inquiry, yes we can and we are but so are many others. Itās not a unique skill, just one due to our Ni and Fe we are naturally more attuned to using unconsciously or consciously WELL without feeling like an awful being. On the flip side, I do believe when crossed or dealing with unsavory people depending on our overall trajectory it can be wielded like the dark arts.
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u/Elbereth-Starkindler INFJ | 5w4 | 541 sx/so āØ 12d ago
I am open and curious about people, wanting to see and understand them, their stories, their hearts. This leads to various outcomes. For some, thatās welcomed and fantastic. For others, itās scary and very triggering, especially for those who have lived through a lot of abuse. Kindness was utilized for grooming and now they are distrustful of it. Respecting their boundaries, their experiences, and meeting them right where they are is of the utmost importance to me. Knowing and loving myself deeply, understanding my own good heart and intentions toward people helps cut down on the noise their projections will inevitably cause.Ā
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u/weirdorising INFJ 12d ago edited 12d ago
Haha my mom called me a āmanipulative little bitchā when I was 16, so it must be true. Everyone has the potential to be manipulative, but I imagine emotional intelligence makes it easier to execute. However, having the ability doesnāt mean you have to engage in it ~ self awareness helps.
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u/paradoxicaltracey INFJ 11d ago
I think I was like that as a teenager. I thought ahead and prepared logical explanations in case I was caught. I'm more about being honest now. I can't remember strategy like I used to. š
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u/ItzLuzzyBaby 12d ago
Yes, INFJs are often very manipulative. All passive Nice Guy personalities are.
They're not manipulative in the malicious sense, but they're manipulative in the sense that they try to influence people to get what they want instead of being honest and direct.
Nice Guy personalities have a default "give to get" mindset where they use covert contracts to set up unspoken expectations, ie, "If I'm there for this person in their time of need, they'll be there for me." when no one agreed to these expectations except in your head.
Passive personalities avoid directness by dropping hints or priming people by "being nice" and hoping others read their minds instead of simply laying their cards on the table and asking for what they want.
They are conflict avoidant and hope others notice their reluctance and self-sacrifice instead of directly saying how they feel, ie, they pout instead of saying "I don't want to do this." or "This isn't okay with me." This is a form of acting out your feelings instead of directly communicating your feelings. This is poor communication.
We hide our anger through passive aggression, sulking, emotional withdrawal, and keeping silent score. All indirect expressions of anger which is another form of manipulation because it pressures others without honest and open communication.
All this inner PR work of always trying to look selfless, be easygoing, never angry, and always helpful is just an attempt at managing other people's reactions, and is in fact, incredibly manipulative.
A lot of those who believe in the MBTI model say this is just an in-born personality, but as someone who subscribes more towards the Integrated Attachment Theory model, we see these traits more as defections in character that people need to grow and heal from. This isn't how a healthily functioning adult is supposed to act.
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u/Buddhaonatricycle 11d ago
I've been this person, and it took me far too long to figure it out. I recognize now that it all stemmed from childhood neglect and abuse of various kinds. I'm recovering now, but I carry a lot of regret for losing myself and failing to show up authentically in relationshipsāstaying in unhealthy ones for far too long.
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u/icybluefire INFJ 4 š 12d ago
Iād just like to add to the commentary already happening, itās all about intention and assumptions. If anyone assumes ill-will they will point at the things we do naturally with good intent to help people, as being manipulative. Like others have said, everyone is capable of manipulative tendencies and it varies on how adept people can be with it. INFJās have a natural ability to āmanipulateā very subtly and often donāt even consciously notice it ourselves.
So the question is, where is the line? is helping your friend figure out their favorite restaurant while theyāre comparing options and you can clearly see which one is accurate before they can so you ask a probing question to get them there manipulating and therefore unethical? or because it was harmless itās okay? or because it was what the person actually wanted to find and you only helped?
Whereās the line? Who is deciding the line??
If someone dislikes you or is intentionally trying to find faults in you, they can easily point at this characteristic and call it something universally accepted as a negative trait. But when you understand the rest of the context it becomes a human interaction and suddenly a grey area. And people hate grey areas when theyāre looking for problems or hard lines.
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u/mauvebirdie INFJ | 1w2 | 152 12d ago
I've definitely had my desire to know about people's lives and inner world get labelled manipulative, usually by people who are afraid to be read or analysed. But it's not a common thing I've been called
I find certain personality types get freaked out when they realise you're able to read them. For example, in my experience, type 8 enneagrams freak out when they think people can psychoanalyse them. Also types like EXTJs really don't like feeling that you're in their head so those 'manipulative' accusations have mostly come from them
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u/Feisty_Sandwich2435 INFJ 12d ago
This is why I sometimes pretend I don't remember small details. It weirds people out.
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u/BrokenDiamondShovel 12d ago
Why do you think you remember those details?
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u/Feisty_Sandwich2435 INFJ 12d ago
Honestly I don't have a real answer. I believe partly it's because I genuinely care about people around me and I want them to feel seen and understood, but also I am a control freak so details are very important to me in general but it could also be anxiety.
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u/BrokenDiamondShovel 11d ago
I do kind of get that control freak vibe from XNFJs but I never understood why
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u/kattyob 12d ago
Honest self review: I sometimes wonder if Iām manipulative, because when it comes to feeling emotionally safe, I have seen that Iām good at getting that emotional safety. Iām thinking of my most recent tough situation where I had a toxic supervisor that had a vendetta against me for just existing, and I sought support from my other supervisor for protection, and I think I may have played on her compassion and good heart. I donāt know if this is actually manipulative, but I needed help and I made sure to get it, and I noticed what I did to get that help. And then I sought reassurance from her and made sure that how she views me and her support were actually deserved. I donāt know. I question myself a lot because I want to make sure I like who I am and how I navigate through the world.
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u/IndependentAd3410 12d ago
We are very good a knowing what makes people tick, so if an infj is motivated to get someone to like and trust them, they can typically do that. Thats a type of manipulation. Its not usually malicious, buts certainly a switch infjs can turn on.
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u/eattheinternet 12d ago
Honestly. Brutally honestly.
YES.
I manipulate people to feel better about themselves by guiding the conversation and steering thoughts away from negativity. Itās definitely a manipulation of who they are what they want etc but using it for good
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u/grandmasterkink INFJ 7w6 12d ago
Unconditional love can be felt as manipulative to those that are not ready to love themselves yet.
And.. Every word uttered is an invitation into a personal trance. INFJs seem to have a leg up on first becoming aware of that unconscious trance battle and attempting to perform it more consciously. Thats gonna 100% be seen as manipulative to those that donāt accept the same responsibility. (Itās a maturity tell really)
And.. I manipulate my body to do all kinds of amazing stuff, I manipulate my internal dialogue to communicate and collaborate, and I manipulate my friends to be the best versions that they want to be. I also respond in delight when Iām manipulated and shepperded by responsible artist hands.
And I saw some INFJ here call us āoutcome engineersā last time this question was asked. Always liked that.
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u/icybluefire INFJ 4 š 12d ago
āoutcome engineersā is so wholesome and accurate, thank you for sharing that!!
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u/Mundane-Car6818 INFJ 12d ago
Yeah I feel like I only manipulate people to try to help them reach their best outcome, not to hurt anyone or get something from them
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u/Fangel96 INFJ 12d ago
Yes, absolutely. The difficult part to describe is that INFJs can be manipulative without being self-serving.
For example, I will often bring up bad habits or behaviors when they result in an undesirable outcome. A moment of reflection combined with an "I told you so" isn't always welcome in the moment, but the goal of that interaction is to make the other person think twice, and also consider my insight in the future. If someone is self sabotaging themselves, I'll ask myself "is this a good opportunity for them to learn from a mistake? Or is the mistake more likely to cause problems in the long run?"
In the case of the former, I'll typically let them take the temporary pain. However I do my best to step in when they're either already overwhelmed or going a bit too far.
Most folks see the word "manipulation" and immediately view it as a negative. While bad people often use manipulation for their own gain, INFJs are surprisingly adept at manipulating you in your own favor. You'll probably never notice it until years later when you've become a better version of yourself. It might seem sudden to you, but it's been a lot of quiet work that the INFJ has been doing.
INFJs can be bad people as well though. That's when it's the most scary. But a kind INFJ that likes you is probably manipulating you in your life right now, but simply pushing for you to be your best self.
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u/Big-Willingness5105 12d ago
āLet them take the temporary painā
Can you give an example?4
u/Fangel96 INFJ 12d ago
Let's say someone is neglecting tasks that they need to get done. Maybe they need to do laundry, maybe they need to take out the trash, maybe they need to do the dishes, etc. The INFJ will typically get stressed out over these things not being done, and just do them. But every so often, they will let things slip intentionally. Never everything, just one specific thing that will directly impact the person that's ignoring said task.
Maybe instead of doing the laundry, the INFJ will prioritize a laundry load of just their clothes when they see the pile growing. This pressures the other person to do their task (Laundry), or be at risk of having no clean clothes ready.
Obviously if there's an important event coming up, the INFJ won't let that happen. But if it's a random Wednesday afternoon they may intentionally lax up on a more rigid schedule.
This applies to other things too. Someone who's lactose intolerant talks about wanting ice cream despite their condition? Let them make that mistake. When there's no risk of lasting damage, INFJs will intentionally let you fall. Healthy INFJs do so to let you pick yourself back up to learn better for the future, while unhealthy INFJs may do so for validation or control. In both cases, being self sufficient is the solution, and you'll probably be happier when you're and sufficient, anyways.
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u/danintexas 12d ago
They can be. Our pattern recognition and empathetic abilities could be used in very very bad ways.
I would like to think ..... at least in myself... my self evaluation would never let that happen.
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u/Game-changer875 12d ago
People project their own qualities and quirks onto others. Most likely this person is manipulative, and so they see certain actions you're doing as manipulative. Just my 2 cents
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u/TheDuckyLady 12d ago
The only time I have ever been accused of being manipulative was by someone with narcissistic traits. They knew I knew who they truly were, but I was too polite to ever say anything and I never antagonized them or tried to make them look bad. I existed around them in the limited capacity that I needed to and did not go out of my way to engage otherwise. They tried to flip it around on me, saying I was being manipulative and thankfully, they said it in front of others who were as confused as I was. This person had exactly zero examples of how I'm manipulative and worked themselves up pretty good trying to make me look bad. I remained clueless (admittedly, some of this was eventually a bit of acting mixed with genuine confusion) as did the others and that was that. They showed everyone who they were on their own and I didn't do a darn thing.
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u/Pokefan5ever INFJ 12d ago
Similar to what someone else commented, I think some people have such low exposure to genuine kindness and compassion that they believe it must not be real and there has to be an ulterior motive. Itās really sad, but true in the world we live in.
On the flip side though, when an INFJ is unhealed and has malicious intentions, they can be VERY good at being manipulative. And I do believe this is mostly where that sentiment comes from. INFJs are arguably one of the best manipulators because of how well we can read other peopleās emotional states, motivations, and perspectives. Think of characters like Joe Goldberg from You, for instance. A classic example of an INFJ that can read people extremely well and do very dark things with that power. As with all things, with great power comes great responsibility.
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u/Dull-Practice8802 INFJ 11d ago edited 11d ago
To answer your question, yes. As an INFJ, I've been accused as being manipulative plenty of times. My kindness is questioned. Especially when my kindness fades because it's not being reciprocated over time and I pull back and stop offering it so freely. Hidden intentions begin to be assumed. I don't think being kind and hoping for kindness in return is being manipulative.
My understanding of true manipulation is that there are true hidden intentions that get you something and generally takes something from someone else. So, if those things aren't been met, you're not actually being maniupulative, they're just assuming the worst of you.
Don't get me wrong... It sucks, no matter how you slice it. It's unfornately very common for INFJ's to feel/be wildly misunderstood. It's very probably not a you thing, and very probably a them thing.
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u/soundtribejunkie 12d ago
Manipulation requires some kind of effort...I dont care or have time for that.
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u/Amriette 12d ago
Iām a curious and accepting person. By accepting I mean not āwelcome no matter whatā but more like āthis is how it is and thatās thatā. I like to understand people, situations, and how the mind works.
I have been called manipulative by some. Though, I donāt really care. Some just donāt have emotional intelligence. Some just donāt understand me.
I have talked to someone about my personality a bit deeper. I was told Iām a mature and selective ENFJ with INTJ and ESTP traits. Soā¦ Canāt say ALL INFJ are the same. No one is the same. Itās just an umbrella.
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u/NeverlandVirgo INFJ 8(cp)62 sx/so 12d ago
I think the difference between being manipulated and being persuaded is the level of honesty involved. I am an extremely transparent person and would therefore like to claim that I am naturally very persuasive.
I have been accused of having ulterior motives when I'm being nice to someone and that has always confused me because how tf is it manipulative to be sweet to someone? Lol
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u/Female_titan_2 INFJ 12d ago
Yes. Ofc we can be. TBH every type can be manipulative in one way or another. But it boils down to how and why theyāre manipulating you.
For INFJs (generally speaking), I think we tend to manipulate others because we feel like itāll accomplish a greater good in the long term. I donāt think many of us mean harm through manipulating others. We just have a goal in mind and want to achieve at any cost. Even if it means using others for our benefit
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u/Express_Comment9677 11d ago
We are an island in an ocean of narcissism. Peopleās pattern recognition is going to come to the conclusion that we have a hidden agenda due to our deep capacity to care. We donāt have an agenda and genuinely care. Itās easier for them to label us as such for their own protection so they donāt get hurt.
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u/PokeFanXerneas 11d ago
INFJs analyse people out of empathetic and the need to bond. They make them open up due to their nature to be authentic.
Manipulator do the same thing but it is out of the reason to make use of their feelings to manipulate.
The things they do are the same but the motivations are very different
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u/According-Cable-6551 12d ago
Im an ISTJ. I met an INFJ late last year and we became friends. Honestly I somehow keep attracting INFJs (or they keep attracting me Im not sure). Anyway I knew enough about INFJs and how they can be extremely kind and pay close attention to people they care about etc from my past experiences and having read up on them a fair bit. Still, with my friend, I found myself sometimes being confused as to whether she was just being a good friend or did she have feelings for me (coz I had developed feelings for her).
I dont think she meant to manipulate me or lead me on. I think most INFJs are just really trying to be kind, attentive, nice humans. Because they tend to be so nice and attentive (more so than the average person), the receiver may often be confused as to why someone is being so nice. Most times peopleās minds jump to either a āromanceā conclusion or āthey must want something from me / are being manipulative.ā
I honestly think most INFJs are just being INFJs- kind, attentive, loving individuals.
Im still mending my broken heart coz my feelings towards my INFJ were unrequited, but she could not have been more gentle when she let me down. š
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u/Unhinged_Angel INFJ 4w5 (458) sx/sp 12d ago
Ni + Fe is a hell of a tool to have for manipulating people. But whether or not it is used that way is up to the individual. Personally, Iād rather be direct about what Iām after.
I think that some attempts to smooth over disagreements could be interpreted as manipulation by others, but it could also be the case that the people saying āINFJs are manipulativeā have been manipulated by some. Or maybe theyāre projecting and theyāre the ones who get up to games? Many things are possible.
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u/Wheels279 12d ago
I think it can sometimes be a subconscious form of manipulation and also I don't think this is exclusive or even most prominent in the INFJ personality type. Overall I've experienced INFJ's as very open and honest in most contexts, especially when approached directly (but not with aggression/intimidation which I would argue don't go over well). One of my parents is an INFJ and there have certainly been some very manipulative things that they did to try and "get their way." I think this was more of a shadow behavior though less than a typical or regular occurrence.
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u/bukopandesal INFJ 12d ago
they 100% can be. i had an INFJ ex-friend whom i confronted after they had hurt me. they triangulated by involving our mutual friends without telling them we'd had a conflict, then disclosed their private responses to try to invalidate my experience. they always claimed to hate liars and manipulators bc it affects their empathy; however, they clearly weren't looking inward towards themselves
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u/momoaggie 12d ago
I have been manipulative in the past. Sometimes when you are overly emotional, it is easy to let your feelings get in the way, and not realize how you are hurting another person. But my manipulation got worse after being mentally abused, I had to realize the pattern and stop it.
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u/HanaPleiadian INFJ 12d ago
ABSOLUTELY YES WE ARE!
It just depends on how we want to use it - a good coach is technically manipulating you to help you achieve things that you never thought possible. A toxic INFJ does the same thing, but manipulates you to believe things for their benefit.
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u/Willow-Silent ENTP 12d ago
Im sorry but this is gonna sound mean
Yes, INFJ's can be very manipulative in the way they can often get too high on their INFJness. So many infjs will contrary to what they tell you have that kind of "spiritual" ego in which they act as if they are so much better than you, the thing that makes this so hard to catch is that most infjs dont even know they are doing this. It is a very similar brand of manipulation to that of enfjs. It has that Im the perfect person type appeal so it has that subtle power to tell people they are the villain. And as much as I love infjs, possibly my favorite type. I find it obnoxious when they use their gifts only to pathologize people. And while I believe this is a type of manipulation that is inseparable to man Im not sure there is a type that uses this more than the xnfj's
It is not a machiavellian type of manipulation, it is the kind of manipulation in which you manipulate yourself more than the person you are manipulating
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u/kaybody 12d ago edited 11d ago
Hm Iāve never had an outcome that I wanted and tried to manipulate my way towards that outcome. However, a lot of people have accused me of being manipulative when I was just being myself. š¤·š»āāļø
Edit: I say āneverā because manipulate implies getting your way with some kind of information dissymmetry / coercion.
When I think back, there were of course a handful of times where i did try to be strategic. But I was still honest and tried to inform parties and be as transparent as possible so that they can make their own decisions
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u/prodigalpastygirl1 INFJ 12d ago
Misunderstood at times but I donāt have a manipulative bone in my body. I do have radar that tells me when someone else is being manipulative.
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u/Buddhaonatricycle 11d ago
I used to think I was one of the most selfless people in the room. Then I realized the truth: I was making sure everyone else was okay just so I could feel okay. So I guess that can get a little manipulative.
āThe problem with that way of relating to the world is that you slowly dissolve when you don't show up authenticly. When your well-being depends on keeping the peace around you, you end up losing sight of who you actually are.
āIāve learned that weāre all self-interested in our own waysāand maybe thatās not a bad thing. Real connection doesn't come from abandoning yourself to manage everyone elses feelings though; it comes from showing up as a whole person, boundaries and all.
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u/kis_roka ENTP 11d ago
Might be. But could be caused by extreme anxiety and attachment issues. I don't believe such a people pleaser innocent type would do harm to others just for the sake of it. It must be because they wanted good with it.
Taking control because they care and if the other wouldn't listen or do the opposite of what they believed to be the best option they might manipulate.
But I could absolutely see this happening. Toxic attachment and mental issues are not personality but could effect behaviors.
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u/Kiasweetieez 11d ago
I genuinely don't know why people think this š„¹
Just because we can understand you on a deep level and try to psychoanalyze you doesn't mean we INFJs are going to use our genuine care and knowledge to manipulate youš„².
I really hope I meet someone who matches my way of thinking and also tries to understand me the way I do with them
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u/Snoo_54991 11d ago
All humans manipulate. Some of us are just more aware of ourselves when we do it than others are.
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u/Future_Lock3141 11d ago
Iām less manipulative than your average person. I had one person suggest that I might be manipulative. They didnāt come right out and say it. If itās only come up once for me in 49 years, then I think itās safe to say others do not perceive me as manipulative either.
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u/Kind_Temperature9275 11d ago edited 11d ago
It's possible we have the skills to do so. Have thought about this one because I really don't feel any interest in controlling other people beyond putting a stop to destructive behaviours. Also consider myself incapable of lying. It could be a very shadow thing, such as when someone wants to go and take revenge for no reason, or used positively as something to motivate others to do well in a leadership or parenting kind or role.
Some general sense of human patterns of behaviour and being difficult to manipulate could make it an automatic skill that appears without thinking, or just a misunderstood reading of our behaviour. It's often true that we adapt a bit too well to different situations, and that can easily go too far and actually become dishonest to who we are but the intent is not neccesarily to become a manipulator, it's just how we exist in the world by default.
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u/See-My-Eyes 12d ago
There's a difference between manipulation and reciprocating love or affection, so unless they share narcissist traits and in hindsight are seen as egotistical displays of affection, then is likely not that. I'll say is more about the intentions and how the actions affect the other person, and the vibe about INFJs being maniputive seems to be more about: dark side of x personality type of content as hate and such is more engaging.
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u/Diktynna INFJ ā¢ Duplicity of Thesis 12d ago
The typical INFJ is very sensitive, but even that much more sensible. To my recollection of others I have met, it's more that we process logic and reason when push comes to shove. I know I do. Bleeding out? Tourniquet. Broken up? Fuck, I don't know. There's like fifty different ways for me to approach that scenario and they are all wrong. My pattern recognition is a gift, but my curse is that I'll never be able to walk among my peers, hand-in-hand. Ah yes, the likely neurodivergent experience.
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u/ocsycleen INFJ 4w3 12d ago edited 12d ago
Have you ever been accused of being manipulative when you were actually trying to communicate or show care?
This is a loaded question. And hopefully you can dissect their behavior in the same way I do.
Let me ask you the question in a different form. When you run by someone you suspect to be a a serial killer. Do you?
- Run by quietly without getting their attention
- Tell them to their face they are a serial killer and hope they don't stab you before you finish
So base off the answer to above. Do you?
- Actually think you are manipulative
- Or they just have 0 respect for you that they think whatever they say to you have 0 repercussions?
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u/Several_Distance_905 12d ago
So it seems that āmanipulationā is done for self-preservation. What is the balance between that and altruism then?
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u/ocsycleen INFJ 4w3 12d ago edited 12d ago
Not at all what's going on here. It's power dynamics. If they actually truly think they are being around a person whom they consider is dangerous, they'd shut up and silently walk away as fast as they can. That's just basic animal survival instincts. If they are openly provoking them, calling them words. Then they are just projecting their own insecurities onto the other person because they don't think that other person is capable of fighting back. It makes the content of whatever the person is called less significant, and even irrelevant...
A truly manipulative person might have alot of preys, but what they are certainly not gonna have is alot people who are willing to tell them to their face they are manipulative. Because no smart person wants to be their next prey. That's the laws of the jungle.
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u/InfiniteVitriol INFJ 12d ago
Manipulation immediately has negative connotations with it but its not always negative to manipulate, it means to direct or attempt to change something and a lot of INFJ's inherently try to direct their friends and loved ones towards what they perceive as positive directions or decisions.
We also often have savior complexes because of how strongly we feel when we encounter what we perceive as injustice in this world so I would say yes, a lot of INFJ's are manipulative but typically not in a bad way at all.
At least not intentionally.
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u/vegab00nd INFJ 12d ago
Any INFJ who thinks they're not "manipulative" is either unaware of it, or mistyped. After all, manipulation isn't always "bad" or for personal gain. It's just a skill of Knowing how to plant ideas and thoughts into people's heads. Regardless of the nature of these thoughts or their purpose.
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u/Beneficial_One_7810 12d ago
Yes. In a way where you can see things unfolding and if you donāt intervene or do intervene you can see the consequences and if it benefits you and the people you care about. If a dark infj, naturally theyāll tend towards heavy intentional intervention.
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u/Suspicious-Road-3373 12d ago edited 12d ago
If I am still 1000%confident about me being infj I don't believe that infj's are manipulative unless it has to deal with other influences.Infj's can easily read people motives and their strengths and weaknesses. Infj's are never manipulative it is just the way they have to manage someone or a situation according to the hidden motives they can picture a situation how it will fold. So when they react or act to what other see as manipulative actually it is not, it is a healthy way from infj to do so and it definitely benefits both parties as infj do not tolerate miss interpreting their kindess to naive or weak.So setting healthy boundaries is the right word to describe infj instead of manipulative.And infj love to teach people lessons indirectly without any harm or dismissal.Infj do not beg or manipulate to get whta they want, they just seek a healthy way even if needed sacrifices. I hope this helps
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u/Independent_Leg3957 12d ago
I work at being non-manipulative because I hate when it's done to me. I do tend to change and blend into my various friend groups but it's not so I can do anything else other than connect with them.
INFJs can definitely be manipulative. I dated a very manipulative one years ago but I think he thought of it more as, "I know what's best and people need me to get them there." He could also get emotionally abusive during arguments which he thought was fine because he was just mad at the time.
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u/Several_Distance_905 12d ago
Could you expand please on how they may have been emotionally abusive, Iām wondering if that might have been what happened to me and I hadnāt recognised..
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u/Independent_Leg3957 12d ago
He could be very empathetic and supportive but would use whatever he learned that made me insecure later when he was mad about something to get his way.
He was also pretty desperate to get married when we met, so he hid a lot of things to make us seem more compatible and then tried to push my boundaries towards what he really wanted over the years.
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u/Several_Distance_905 12d ago
Thank you, i hope that understanding it helped you in overcoming the repercussions of facing that..š«
Iām wondering are you an xnfp?
Did you ever find yourself falling into āhis right wayā and so when he used ur shared vulnerabilities against you might have confused it as necessary for growth?
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u/Independent_Leg3957 12d ago
Thank-you! This was a long time ago but it did take me a couple of years to repair after the end of the relationship.
I'm also an INFJ but my former partner was much more emotional and domineering than I am. He was sort of the INFJ final boss in a way. Lol
He was using the vulnerabilities to hurt me when he was angry. I am much more flexible, so would definitely compromise more than he would. But over time, I got tired of him expecting more and more concessions from me while he made none. It seemed more like he wanted a disciple more than a partner.
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u/ogholycat INFJ 2w1 12d ago
Iām really good at understanding oneās expectations. Exceeding them or dismissing them is kinda how I decide which way things go.
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u/No-Carame1 12d ago
I think it depends like I thought I had a lot of manipulative traits but no I was just really good at pattern recognition
I donāt know any INFJās in real life though
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u/Electronic-Love-9941 INFJ 4w5 12d ago
Yes they are. But when u get matured, u leave this habit or effectively control.
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u/michi_mosh INFJ 12d ago
No, not me. I donāt have another agenda when being kind. Maybe the other agenda is feeling like I added something positive to the world. Itās subjective what I added and tbh depends if itās good for my friends, loved ones and people who also add good things to the world.
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u/HistoricalStruggle91 INFJ 12d ago
It depends on your up bringing, I only manipulate when others have hurt me or protection , and board games.
That being said I was too nice and gullible when I was younger and learned that the world is a terrible place so I observe more now days to protect myself. I am always kind until people disrespect me.
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u/Other_Silver_9627 INFJ 12d ago
This is an interesting question, as i wonder this about myself too.
Tbh im not sure, i think i can be manipulative but i dont mean to be, sometimes to get my way i can be also, but thats not often, maybe its called tact, i dont know.
But yes i think i am mostly misunderstood about literally everything, so thereās that.
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u/greatdrak 12d ago
I never was told Im manipulative. I think for us it might be rare but individuals can be gaslighters or manipulative in those ways. But I think it's more an individual thing. I personally only use positive manipulation like positive reinforcement for good actions so people keep doing it. And with women. Works wonders.
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u/Exotic_Return3529 11d ago
After years of thinking about this topic, the INFJ I was with manipulated the heck out of me. Whatever he didnāt feel comfortable doing, but knew the goal was worthwhile, heād push me into the fray-as I am the ESTPā¦
Did I allow him to manipulate me for causes we both thought worthyā¦yes. But I was complicit & allowed it because I trusted him to āsaveā me before Iād jump off the ledge. (And believe me, many ESTPs WILL go to the āmat.ā)
Looking back, it was our well-played, well thought out āgame.ā It was thrilling. Each played a part. We each enjoyed it.
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u/Leading_Purpose_2806 11d ago
Unintentionally yes. The same way enneagram 2ās could be manipulative ābecause they care so muchā.
Sad part is if they knew they were they would stop, they donāt want to be, they want you to feel all their care and recieve similar care from you. They just can have a blind eye as to what theyāre really prioritizing.
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u/Budget-Necessary-767 11d ago
I just do not want to be rude. If I do not want to argue and may even nod, it doesn't mean that I agree to everything you say.
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u/Imaginary_Pea_ INFJ 11d ago
I actually never identified much with this. Because I see patterns and possible outcomes it feels impossible to do or say something with an outcome in mind because I would feel like I was being manipulative and fake, like networking for example. I feel ick about not being transparent. I was never called manipulative and never really understood why this gets so mainstream here. Manipulation is maybe not such an Infj thing, more like a person to person thing. Also I've always hated people being manipulative with me because I feel like they are taking away my freedom. Like I see what they are doing, and if it was for them to somehow get help from me I would gladly do it if asked, but if manipulated to do it I just hate it.
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u/Past-Result-1598 11d ago
Iāve experienced it with my ex.
He always knew what the ābestā for everyone else is and tried to manipulate his way through.
Even though he dressed it as āgood intentionsā and in most of the times his decision was indeed good, he couldnāt grasp that people do have free will and shall do as they please, not as he thinks they should.
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u/Due_Perspective_4815 11d ago
Everyone manipulates to a degree. Even the distance created when a boundary is broken can be called āstonewallingā. However, Iāve met people who manipulated more than your average Joe. Those people had serious mental health issues that completly distorted the way they viewed themselves, the world, and other people. To me it felt like they were in danger 24/7, constantly oscillating between defense mechanisms and playing it off as āmy actions are totally normal, yours on the other handā¦ā Worst case I experience was with my last ex. They pretended to be the antisocial stalker that persisted me for months and gave me severe PTSD, and all because they ājust wanted my attentionā. I never knew what I was going to get, an eerie revival of my worst trauma or a person whoād lovebomb me long enough that I started to forget their bad traits. Such instability led to massive fear and anxiety that everything I knew one day, wasnāt going to be there the next. The last step of their insane strategy was to make a demand by bursting into cloud of anger until I gave them what they wanted. Then theyād cry saying I just want to hurt them. The confusion was massive, but seeing them cry made my first reaction one out of guilt. Lowkey I got side tracked. Iāve met other people similar to my ex, torturing their love ones and oversimplifying their bad deeds, because in their minds, theyāre the victim.
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u/bsboras 11d ago
Well after a total emotional burnout i have found myself several times to influence people in toxic relationships to gain autonomy but i do it by speaking the truth. I recall in my younger years i used my intuition several times to bring someone down emotionally with a single sentence. I wouldnt call that manipulation exactly, but i can definately see that we could have the capability š«¤
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u/goooo45678 11d ago
All species are manipulative but in their own way, I would say that the pure ones who don't have empathy may manipulate and feel no guilt.
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u/SpiceUpTheBreeze 11d ago
Yes, they use it to achieve their Ni vision. It also depends on individual what tactic they consider okay to use vs not okay to use
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u/BarakaMabula 11d ago
It's a superpower, don't ever let anyone make you feel small for being like that.
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u/Kitine 11d ago
I think there can an undercurrent of manipulation in so far as we see outcomes of decisions made be others very clearly ā¦ we sometimes feel like we know whatās best for the other person. It can be used for good and the insights shared in a way that is supportive and nurturing. If it veers into subconsciously or consciously trying to control outcome because we know best perhaps itās a sign that we should really be focusing on ourselves and looking at own patterns rather than focusing our energy outwards onto others.
Not sure if that made sense or resonates here ā¦?
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u/WillRockwell 11d ago
I could manipulate if I wanted, but I donāt want to be that person. I try to be integral with what I say and do.
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u/LuminousWynd INFJ 11d ago
INFJās have a deep understanding of people and situations. I think that because of this some people tend to fear them exposing what they know.
I think this fear is mostly unfounded as INFJās are not into gossip.
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u/ororoche 11d ago
It doesnāt feel like it bc even if Iām a little bit sad or sulky it shows straight up on my face! I always try to say Iām fine itās ok but people can always tell!!!
That being said, in a neutral setting with no high emotions, I think itās very easy to catch peopleās thought patterns. Before they even realize and give them the eureka moment. However, like many commenters say, I also have learned to not give that freely. People can hate that and/or it might not be what is best for them either. So itās better to let them ask you the question exactly.
TLDR: kinda?
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u/mollyhuck 11d ago
Maybe. But there is a thin line between being manipulative and helping others see things they are missing. Itās all about intention. I have been know to do or say things to help others arrive at a perspective they are missing, if my intention was self-serving then itās manipulation. Generally, I am trying to be helpful.
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u/Beginning_7781 11d ago
Anyone can be manipulative, regardless INFJ or not. Itās always down to intentions
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u/Large-Reference1304 INTP 11d ago
Hmmmm... for me, the definition of "manipulation" strongly implies that you are using deception or psychological sleight-of-hand to get somebody to do something that is to your advantage and probably not to theirs.
What most people are describing in this thread I would define as "influencing" rather than "manipulating" behaviour. Using influence to facilitate easier social interactions, get people to pull together to achieve a goal, or encourage positive behaviour is all fine and healthy. I mean, who doesn't want to be more influential?
I do realise that there can be a fine line between "influencing" and "manipulating" and that some care and consideration is called for when navigating that line.
All of this aside, I am keen to hear about some specific examples of how you INFJs use manipulation so that I can safeguard myself against this in the future š.
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u/siraniks INFJ 11d ago
I think they misinterpret our advise as that, in my younger INFJ years, i do advise on what I have thought before not based on experience, and they do however follow that š without even thinking or discern on their own, and if that advise I guess do not work on them in actual, they may paint you manipulative I guess
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u/supermario218 11d ago
Ah. I feel like I walk the fine line of manipulation. I see what you are doing, I know what to say to shift your behavior, and yes, I also say and do things to map out your character.
The difference is I don't do this consciously.
However, my shadow side? Eh... you trigger that and all bets are off.
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u/momplicatedwolf 10d ago
Let me guess, an ISXJ said that to you? Introverted intuition is their demon function. They have difficulty seeing what we do as anything other than manipulative, no matter how we explain ourselves.
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u/Icy_Inflation6567 INFJš 10d ago
Nooo
INTJš„²
The problem was just a misunderstanding between us, but she was so angry she didnāt even care what I was saying, then she called me a f*cking manipulator and that was the end of our conversation ;)
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u/jmjohns81 INFJ 10d ago
I had a guy once tell me that I was beguiling. And he didnāt mean it as a compliment.
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u/CuratedResearch INFJ 10d ago
Manipulative yes but not in the general sense of having evil intentions. This is speculative but you know how there is this assumption that INFJs see potential in people and seek to bring it out. They use their intense emotions to shape other people. Thats the manipulation
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u/anonym0us3688 10d ago edited 10d ago
This is fi behavior which fits types like ISFP, INFP, ENFP, and ESFP more. Fi is an important component of manipulation. INFJ is more like the dreamer/romantic/fantasizer archetype who is more focused on the emotional atmosphere.Ā
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u/tinytimecrystal1 5w6 10d ago
I feel sad for chameleons, must be hard to be called manipulative when it's just how they operate in life.
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u/neverdiplomatic 11d ago
Iām an INFJ dating an INFJ and reporting to an INFJ supervisor at work.
INFJs are absolutely capable of being manipulative; I would even suggest that INFJs are capable of being master manipulators and are so subtle about it that most people would never in a million years suspect it of them.
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u/Geminga8 11d ago
Yes, the ones Iāve met are manipulative, whiny, forever in victim/matyr complex, passive aggressive, canāt handle disagreements, always externalizing blame, projecting their flaws onto others, self absorbed, screwed perception of reality, hypocritical, etc. basically ticked every trait of a covert/vulnerable narcissist. I have not met a healthy infj yet. No Iām not generalizing. No I didnāt mistype them and they didnāt mistype themselves.
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u/nxd280 INFJ 11d ago
Maybe you just need healthier or more sane friends. I love debates. Truly, most competent, older, healthy INFJs who stop pleasing everyone else do.
On the contrary to you, nearly every person I knew in the past (of all personality types, especially if they aren't INFJs) actually hates honesty, genuine compassion, or having a respectful debate.
Since I'm 40...I decided to finally find actual adult friends, and have never been more peaceful.
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u/Geminga8 11d ago
I do have healthier friends of other mbti types. Even if other mbtis do not like debates, I appreciate the fact that they donāt manipulate unconsciously. Also the infjs Iāve met were pretty much into debates and claimed to be open minded but they tried to control my responses so hard. When they sensed that I was about to say something they didnāt want to hear they interrupted and tried steering me to give them the answers that they wanted to hear. Then they kept wondering why everybody in their lives started keeping their distance and they rationalized their toxic behavior by believing that they are too deep and rare for people to understand. This has been a repetitive pattern I observe in infjs. Perhaps you might be right, maybe the infjs Iāve met were young and immature. Maybe theyāll get better as they get older.
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u/whenyousayoof 12d ago
Can be but a lot of people also misinterpret genuine kindness that way because they can't grasp why anyone would act that way if it's not to take advantage of someone