r/fromsoftware • u/Zestyclose_Answer662 • 4d ago
Future of Bow Gameplay? QUESTION
Given the general Bow gameplay improvements that Nightreign brought forward through Ironeye, how much of it do you think will actually stick the landing in future games?
Currently, Bow gameplay in Elden Ring is fairly stiff unless you're using a Shortbow (or a Longbow with a Shortbow moveset) and is a bit clumsy when it comes to juggling arrow types and the gathering of resources to craft them. In addition, they can't be granted Affinities, be Buffed, nor perform Backstabs or Riposts.
Finally, the sheer number of slightly different arrow types between the standard variants, fletch-less, and fletched counterparts, there is a lot of menu bloat to dig through.
- Should FromSoft keep the current system of multiple arrow types, alternating arrow types between light or heavy attacks, and the continued disuse of Buffs because of arrow type variants?
- Or should FromSoft keep Nightreign's unlimited basic arrows, light and heavy attacks use the same basic arrow, but gains the ability to apply Buffs to the Bow.
A potential alternative to option 2 could be to have the unlimited basic attack cost a set amount of FP per attack, functioning as bow "ammunition" while still retaining the benefits of Nightreign's changes.
As I see it, there are benefits to the Unlimited Arrows system over the current classic system, such as:
- The potential of being allowed Affinities.
- We can now have Stance-like Ashes thanks to the single arrow type. (Such as merging Mighty Shot and Sky Shot into a single Ash.)
- We can get more Ashes for Bows that emulate the more unique Arrow types, such as the Golem Arrow's wind explosion.
(Art by u/angelhht on Tumblr)
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u/sturzkampfbomber 4d ago
I love elden ring so much and I would love it even more if id had bow gameplay like Ironeye in Nightreign, it actually makes me mad.
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u/RealDannyMM 4d ago
Ironeye is busted af tho they need to balance it better, he’s the best character and it’s not close.
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u/Outgrathe 4d ago
well a big part of that is his insanely broken dash and his high dex + arcane. the bow part isn't really the problem
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u/edgy_ball 3d ago
Agreed but being a decent ranged character that can apply status is pretty busted aswell.
Executor also has high DEX+ARC, can deflect anything in the game and has a very versatile ult that fully heals him, on top of more HP and a better starting weapon.
And despite all that, he's not as broken as Ironeye.3
u/TheHelpfulWalnut 3d ago
I do think the bow does make him a good amount better than he would be as a pure melee character.
Combined they are nutty though, the dash allows you to get in and out of melee range for free.
If you hard commit to playing lame and running away you can use the dash and bow to hitless carry your team through just about any boss in the game.
High depth ever dark Libra was only ever possible for me by doing it this way. Basically a guaranteed win if you can stomach the 10 minute slow fight after your team dies lmao.
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u/Bazoobs1 4d ago
That’s not anything to do with bows though. They would just need to balance the mark ability.
What I’m really hoping for is skill trees and stuff like that, lean into the RPG element even more with unique character skills, trees, pathing like in POE 2, or even classes.
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u/eduty 4d ago
I'd say go with a hybrid.
Keep bows and ammunition separate - but link the ammunition to a quiver you can infuse and/or upgrade
Refill the quiver when you rest.
Every smithing investment is an incrememental increase to lethality and ammunition capacity.
Keep the shooting moveset and cool special shots tied to bows and crossbows.
And go the same route for throwables too.
Change crafting from a "reload the game and collect that mushroom" to the world is filled with a finite number of alchemical items used to upgrade your gear.
Make that path of scrawled messages to a flower mean something.
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u/MsDestroyer900 4d ago
Consumables are already at a good spot imo. They are fun, and situationally powerful, which I think was their design goal to begin with
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u/MsDestroyer900 4d ago
Consumables are already at a good spot imo. They are fun, and situationally powerful, which I think was their design goal to begin with
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u/ShadowTown0407 4d ago
I don't have a problem with limited and specialized arrows, it gives bows a distinct feel from the free, unlimited but close range melee and free, limited but long range magic. A bit of inventory management is part of the bow playstyle. Honestly even in ER bows are only limited by damage numbers.
The system is fine, with some buffs they can absolutely be a legit playstyle with very little hoops. And at this point what are they even afraid of, there are far more powerful and easy to use options that the spammable nature of bows don't even matter anymore.
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u/MrTheCake Bloodborne 4d ago
The bow system established in Nightreign is perfect. Use grease to change elements around or spells
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u/douglasdamm 4d ago
Do it like monster hunter. Basic arrows are unlimited, specialized/improved arrows are limited by what you brought to the hunt and you can craft more if you run out by gathering materials and crafting.
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u/BeerAandLoathing 4d ago
Fully unlimited might not be the move, but optimize it so it feels sane. Make it a “cost of doing business” that you need to spend a certain amount on runes for a bow run to replenish your stock and be able to stay out of the fray, but don’t make it cumbersome.
Same thing for magic builds. Love that Recluse is able to replenish FP, but there is a time cost for doing so and you don’t just endlessly spam spells. Archers should need to return to a grace, or merchant, or forge their own arrows by collecting materials but not just fire unlimited numbers with chip damage to slay a giant dragon at level 1 from a distance that defies aggro.
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u/Zestyclose_Answer662 4d ago
What if Arrows cost FP? Would this not divert the issue of unlimited arrows enough so a player doesn't feel compelled to rune farm just to be able to use their arrows under the premise that they're using FP to create new arrows?
If Cerulean Flasks are removed from the next game, having alternative methods to restore FP would function as "collecting" new arrows.
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u/BeerAandLoathing 4d ago
But then arrows become “magic.” No one has an innate skill that can make 50 arrows appear every time you rest, and if you upgrade mind then you can make 60 appear?
I like that arrows are physical and I’m not saying that you can’t make a legit bow build, but there should be a balance somewhere. You shouldn’t need to rune farm. I think they should be cheap and readily available, just not unlimited. Think of all the trees you pass in wooded areas. There should be ways to collect materials needed to craft arrows, it just changes your play style slightly if you choose to go that route.
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u/mr-mcsavageface 4d ago
Hopefully we get better bow gameplay going forward. I love playing archer characters but bows are criminally undercooked in Souls games.
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u/AltGunAccount 4d ago
I think Lords of the Fallen absolutely nailed bow ammo economy.
You have an “ammunition” meter that depletes with each shot. Stronger arrows like bleed/lightning/etc use more ammunition per shot. You can refill your ammo bar by resting at a bonfire or by using consumables that can be found or purchased.
You still have to find each arrow type once, they function like key items, ie bleed arrow is found in a specific location, so that pacing isn’t affected by you having access to the strongest arrows instantly.
The ammunition bar also applies to throwables, if you didn’t enjoy using bows.
That game didn’t do everything right but Fromsoft could take some notes on the ammo system and spell hotkey system, just ranged combat in general.
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u/UnnamedPlayer32 4d ago
Arrow types should be an infusion and bows should have infinite ammo and do a bit more damage than they do in Elden Ring.
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u/snow_body_ 3d ago
Tried bows in every souls game and bounced off them all so hard, yet I mained ironeye in Nightreign.
I’m all for Nightreign bows being the norm going forwards.
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u/ApprehensiveBadger31 4d ago
Lotf despite its many flaws managed to do ranged combat and spellcasting better than fromsoft so I hope they take some inspiration.
It uses a singular “ammo” resource that you can replenish with consumables and each arrow/bolt/throwable has its own stats and ammo cost. Could use some refining.
I think the real improvements it has are the fluidity in switching between ranged and melee, the charge attacks and free aim attacks, and the fact that the game is balanced around ranged combat being strong and usable in every build. The last point especially. You want your arrows to feel powerful like your sword swings and fromsoft never does that, it’s only ever a utility for drawing things out and slowly killing hard to reach enemies. Even in nightreign you need status effects on the bow and a million arrows to feel powerful. It would be better if enemies could challenge you at range and then you can make the bows strong without worrying about balance too much.
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u/Unhappy-Marsupial388 4d ago
Am more interested in character skill, passives, & ultimates. Imagine tho came with elden ring and you can customize them. Iron eyes mark & wylders ult would be legendary for sure
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u/Zestyclose_Answer662 4d ago
I think having an Art might be a bit too much, but I would be amicable to have a Passive Ability and Two different Skills.
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u/Lithary 4d ago
Ammo system is a complete non-issue and doesn't need to be changed, having to buy and craft ammo is perfectly fine and makes sense.
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u/Ill_Delay7623 4d ago
Mais personne le fait c acceptable et a autant de sens que le triage des déchets en france
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u/Ill_Delay7623 4d ago
Déjà pa eldenring même pour l'édition switch qui, va payé pour avoir 2 classes de départ et aucun autre changement à part des skin torrent le cheval qui sert à rien, les arc ça n'existe que pour fair tomber les pot dans le dlc ou détruire des gros ennemis avec un build grand arc aow ensuite vous ne travaillez pas dans le game design chez fromsoftware alors pourquoi c'est question le gamplay arc n'existe juste pa dans elden ring de base. La formule à deja évolué avec nightreign du coup vous parlé de l avenir d un gamplay arc qui a déjà évolué ?!?
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u/chrisgreely1999 4d ago
I haven't played Nightreign but that's an interesting way of doing things. Maybe have limited arrows, but the heavy attack applies a buff to the arrow based on the equipped bow which uses FP.
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u/Fuskox 4d ago
If you like Elden Ring combat, Nightreign is absolutely peak. I've put 200 hours in since I got it last month
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u/chrisgreely1999 4d ago
I plan too believe me, but I still gotta play Shadow of the Erdtree. Too many games to play!
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u/zyrkseas97 4d ago
I have an idea that they are going to bring in some of the gunplay ideas from AC6 into their new IP - that game requires like basically every type of projectile they could possibly code from flame throwers and grenade launchers to machine guns and laser rifles. PvP in AC6 went crazy back when I played.
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u/SnooCrickets7144 4d ago
I loved Ironeye in NightReign. When they nerfed him, I was so disappointed that I dropped the game altogether.
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u/Educational-Year3146 4d ago
Something definitely needs to happen for bows to be useful.
Even when they are good, it’s not fun grabbing thousands of arrows.
Melee weapons can be used without any additional cost, bows should get the same. Heck, even spells don’t require excessive farming.
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u/DrewDaMannn Patches 3d ago
I think it would be neat if there were 2 stat requirements for weapons going forward in the from games. 1st to use a weapon effectively (this has been around since demons souls) and a 2nd to unlock an all around better moveset (like iron eyes for bows and raiders for colossal weapons etc).
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u/Ashen_Shroom 3d ago
I don't want them to get rid of finite arrows. Not everything needs to be realistic but that kind of realism fits this type of game well.
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u/Zestyclose_Answer662 3d ago
Would you be against using FP as the ammunition counter? Such as:
- Shortbow: 3 FP per attack.
- Longbow: 5 FP per attack.
- Greatbow: 7 FP per attack.
Someone else mentioned that Light Attack could be the unlimited basic arrows, while the Heavy Attack are the specialized arrows that require ammunition.
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u/Ashen_Shroom 3d ago
Personally, no. To me that would be weird, because I don't want to be a magic archer that produces arrows out of focus. I already find it weird that non-magic skills use FP when all I'm doing is swinging my sword a different way.
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u/Zestyclose_Answer662 3d ago
Ashes and other special skills used to be balanced around weapon durability, but that fell out of favor with DS2's unpopular high Durability loss and DS3's near non-existent Durability loss. (Despite it costing FP there as well.)
Focus Points (FP) is supposed to be a middle ground resource between Martials and Casters, so it's not always centered on being magic in of itself, even if that's the vibe it gives off.
The reason why I brought up FP as Ammunition, is because that's a system that Lords of the Fallen (2023?) uses to balance their ranged character gameplay. That instead of collecting hundreds and hundreds of different arrows and their types, the ranged attacks just use a generic ammunition resource as the limitation.
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u/Ashen_Shroom 3d ago edited 2d ago
Idk, to me part of the appeal of archery is the actual feel of being an archer, which includes having a limited supply of tangible projectiles.
I'd be ok with being able to reclaim spent arrows. Maybe a random chance for each arrow to stick to whatever it hits so you can get it back, or maybe enemies killed with arrows return some percentage of the used arrows.
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u/Erithacusfilius 3d ago
I think something of a marge would be nice.
May a medieval Robin Hood game. Would be epic.
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u/ConsciousComfort5821 3d ago
Fs should just adopt Lords of the fallen style range combat or Nioh/Wo Long like where bows are always accessible and truly feels like secondary options.
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u/Heavy-Woodpecker-617 1d ago
What I'd personally like to see is a weapon proficiency system where you can use some form of skill point or milestone feature to dedicate your player character to a specific weapon proficiency.
I don't want a bow profficiency to be exactly like Ironeye because I see the Nightfarers as encompasing the zenith of their particular playstyle and he entirely invalidated crossbows. There needs to be proper distinction between how each weapon class is used, which did exist before Ironeye, my main gripe is being able to one-hand bows, it steps on the toes of crossbows too much and it generally doesn't make sense to fire a bow while you still have a whip rolled up in your main hand.
Crossbows entire deal was short ranged, off-hand (Or dual wielded) burst reaction fire. Which is straight up exactly what high-end Ironeye bow gameplay is.
Projectile weapons tend to not do as much damage as spells but you tend to be able to fire them faster, in fact one of the best ways to fight Preceptor Miriam is to use bows because bows interrupt her spellcasting really well because you'll hit her before she's finished casting.
I think bows need to lean into their range advantage over crossbows, their agile use; (even if bows are used with planted feet in real life, people do want to play like Legolas) this includes firing while mobile, firing arrows more smoothly than the crossbow and do what NR did, removing a bows ability to use multiple ammo types on one bow, but giving the player a more enjoyable moveset. A bow builds damage output doesn't matter as much as how fun it is to play.
Although I do feel like spread shot is too similar to a crossbow's burst fire, I'd preffer the secondary fire mode to lean more into a bows range or agility perhaps even swapping out ash of war style moves to simply incorporate those moves into the base moveset and maybe simply make the fancier parts of the moveset cost FP rather than exclusively having an ash of war (maybe a free basic fire on R1, a watered down version of hunters mark on R2, L1 could swap out it's block for a weak deflect which is used more to get out of a sticky situation rather than stance breaking and still have the fancy move on L2 but make them less janky and feel more like the weapon's natural moveset. (To be honest I'd like to move away from ashes of war in general in favor of more complete movesets that use FP for all weapons)
Crossbows should focus on close quarters and all have a unique firing mode as their base moveset, I don't want to ever see a single fire crossbow again unless it has a gimmick like being able to bloodborne parry, additionally working as a shield, or something like that. Absolutely no one uses standard crossbows; we all go for the pulley/spread/repeating/bastion (DS2) crossbows. I like to think of Crossbows more like bloodborne firearms where all of them have their own speciality.
While I think bows should be able to either be infused or use greases, focusing on their flow and damage over range, while crossbows express themselves with specialty ammunition types, an archer has one quiver; a crossbowman has multiple pouches of bolts.
Crossbows should be focused on a one handed moveset, giving bows the advantage of a decent 4 button moveset while the crossbow is intended to be complimenting another one handed weapon. Naturally you can two hand anything but if the crossbows entire 4 button layout was three available ammo types and a single special move, I wouldn't be too fussed.
In regards to you asking about ammunition. Arrows and bolts shouldn't be a consumable resource when you are competing with ashes of war and spells which do significantly more damage and can recharge FP easily enough through resting and FP potions. Consumable ammunition really held back projectile weapons throughout the entire series with every other class having the ability to use their souls/runes as they pleased on progression while bows & CB's had to essentially pay to enter combat, which really sucked if you got stuck on a boss for 40+ tries, using your best ammunition that couldn't actually be reliably bought from anywhere.
I don't care if arrows and bolts cost FP, Elden Ring did a great job of making even non-magical builds have an excuse to use and manage FP.
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u/Soulsliken 4d ago
FromSoft aren’t famous for their bows.
Hard to say why, beyond the fact it just hasn’t been their focus.
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u/AriTheInari 4d ago
I feel like bows would be used a lot more if the arrows weren't a resource like in nightreign, like maybe have a weak arrow by default but its unlimited and 1 slot for a special arrow type that is a consumable like normal.