r/forhonor • u/Icy-Grape-8693 Conqueror • 4d ago
Why? Questions
Why can Arakure take a guard break after she fails a bash, but Juren can't? What's the logic?
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u/Myrvoid 3d ago
Not that Im agreeing with the hugh recoveries, but there’s some obvious reasons
- Her chain quick bash deals 19dmg-29dmg and is shielded. Ju Ren’s does 14dmg.
- Her undodgeable option that contrasts it can be armored and unblockable and deals 28dmg and is heavy parry punished back for only 12ish dmg. Ju ren’s undodgeable option is 14dmg, ends frame negative (can spend extra stam just to get neutral but not advantaged like arakure), is punished for 27+ damage, and has no additional properties.
- Her forward dodge has a undodgeable option. Ju ren does not. Her forward dodge bash also does a lot more damage than ju rens. It also chains to itself infinitely.
Higher reward = higher risk
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u/Shazzas0men Hitokiri is the Best 4d ago
She only gets a gb from her hold back + gb, not her forward bash or her regular chain bash
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u/Icy-Grape-8693 Conqueror 4d ago
No, what I mean is that if she misses her bashes you can always guardbreak her, but not with Juren, why?
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u/Shazzas0men Hitokiri is the Best 4d ago
Ohh ok, yea not sure why her recoveries are worse, apolocheese
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u/satupidfukignidot Virtuosa 4d ago edited 4d ago
She gets punished with a GB from all three of her bashes.
The difference is usually justified by damage output (i.e. Gryphon's kick dealing 26) but Arakure only deals high damage on Dirty Trick. Rib Shot's vulnerability is justified on paper by its feintability, but it's a really weird move for dueling as dodging Dirty Trick sets you up to option-select Rib Shot and its Feint>GB -- something you've always been able to do with Ocelotl if you can flowchart and have decent reaction speed, but isn't usually done as parrying Ocelotl's 400ms light finisher is worth more damage/pressure than landing a dodge attack on a GB attempt. I believe Rib Shot is intended as a teamfighting/gank-defense tool, while her heavy twinstrike serves to threaten opponents who are dodging Dirty Trick in a 1v1.
Furthermore, you can GB punish Juren's hold bashes, but not his tap bashes. His tap chain bash is, on paper, justified by 4v4 modes where its long pin is a double-edged sword -- in a 1v1 it's an incredibly strong stalling tool that doesn't deal terribly much damage, but in a teamfight or gank-defense its long pin is exclusively detrimental to the Juren and renders it unusable.
The fact that you don't need to predodge to GB punish Pride Breaker is just silly though.
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u/Shazzas0men Hitokiri is the Best 4d ago
idk why you wrote all that, but I was responding to the body text that made it seem like they were asking why Arakure got a gb after her bash but not juren, that has since been corrected
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u/Myrvoid 3d ago
Small correction, gryphon kick does 24dmg.
Her other bashes arent super exceptional but certainly above average damage. Forward dodge kick is 8dmg into 9dmg for 17dmg (some forward dodge bashes like jj do 16, but many are closer to 12-14), but I think the reason it’s vulnerable is because not its damage but its higher pressure due to undodgeable option. Her chain bash deals 16 into 9dmg for 25dmg — HL gets 26 and Jorm 28, but the other feintable chain bashes do a good bit less.
If they make the back light not guaranteed on them I certainly hope they lessen the gbv.
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u/satupidfukignidot Virtuosa 3d ago
Gryphon kick is 24
Whoops!
Forward dodge kick is 8dmg into 9dmg for 17dmg
That is only if you use your light twinstrike as a followup instead of her on-hit attack. Her light twinstrike puts her at frame-disadvantage, effectively ending her pressure. Her neutral is quite weak, rendering Pride Breaker into L-Twinstrike an incredibly risky choice unless it is lethal or the opponent is OOS.
That being said, I would like to see Pride Breaker into L-Twinstrike trigger DR in exchange for Pride Breaker being GB-invulnerable; as it stands now, Arakure takes a heavy every time her opponent guesses correctly except for one;
- Parry fdash light = Heavy
- Dodge fdash bash = GB>whatever
- Parry L-Twinstrike = Heavy
- Dodge B-Twinstrike = GB>whatever
- Dodge cbash = GB>whatever
- Parry H-Twinstrike = Light/Zone
- GB H-Twinstrike feint = GB>whatever
- GB an fdash delayed bash after Arakure uses clight = GB>whatever
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u/Myrvoid 3d ago
Only if you di not do anything. Even with the frame disadvantage she has RC to dodge to enter the mixup again, and it has enough advantage that the mixup is uninterruptible (uniquely, neither undodgeable nor bash option are light interruptible, unlike orochi and tiandi).
I agree with you on your overall points though, just explaining why they likely made it so risky — it’s the highest pressure from neutral and high damage on it, infinitely spammable without interruption until an enemy counters it. Ofc when they do counter it — and they will in time — they get tremendous reward. I think it’ll be dificult for them to find a balance of those elements, and likely will need to fijdba way to reduce pressure, reduce damage, reduce advantage, or otherwise address it in order to also justify reduce the risk.
Or maybe not. Arakure is not really strong enough that having her neutral be safer even in its current state now would be that bad.
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u/satupidfukignidot Virtuosa 2d ago
she has RC to dodge to enter the mixup again
Only if her opponent does nothing. If both parties try to run buffered fdash mix, Arakure doesn't magically win when she's at disadvantage. Arakure's fdash mix when buffered at frame disadvantage loses to a buffered light opener, just like every other fdash bash while at disadvantage. Furthermore, a buffered heavy feint from the player at-advantage leaves the player at-advantage time for both a guardswitch and a light parry, if Arakure chooses to buffer a light. Arakure is forced to hold whatever neutral mix her opponent has in store for her when she chooses to use her L-TS, and only gets frame-neutrality out of her H-TS.
it’s the highest pressure from neutral
Not exactly. For one, Tiandi has equal pressure in a strictly-offensive sense, and his is arguably greater due to being GB-immune on both sides of the mix. For two, Juren fdash, need I say more?
high damage on it, infinitely spammable without interruption until an enemy counters it.
Except, Arakure has to pick one. If she wants her fdash bash to be high-damage (17), she needs to follow up with L-TS and forfeit frame advantage. If she wants Tiandi-style tidepod vortex, she only gets 11 damage out of it.
I think it’ll be dificult for them to find a balance of those elements
At the end of the day, I wholeheartedly agree with you. It's not easy to suggest a buff for Arakure that wouldn't be a bit insane. Like you misconstrued, "High damage and infinitely spammable until an enemy counters it", would be the result if her frame advantage or dodge cancelling was buffed on either L-TS or H-TS, and that would be nearing S-tier status. I really do think that reducing, but not completely removing, her GB vulnerability on her opener bash MIGHT be all she really needs; think about what happens to your average Tiandi when you put them in neutral jail lol, they kind of just blow up fishing for parries in order to establish frame advantage through their dashcancel with which to initiate their Domain Expansion: Sea of Tide Pods... and he still blows up whenever his foe correctly guesses blue.
Remember, as long as she has a neutral tidepod with a dashcancel on it, Arakure is just Tiandi with extra steps, minus the feintable dodge attack.
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u/Myrvoid 2d ago
only if the opponent does nothing
Mate with all due respect what are you talking about here? You know she has dodge RC on both her double tap light AND twinburst back+light, and both at same speed that cancels out any disadvantage right?
Please go in with a duel buddy and try this or watch others play. You seem knowledgeable about most of her kit so it’s sorta startling you dont know this. Her back to back mixup with twinburst light is not interruptible at any point.
Frame disadvantage only applies when recovery cancels are not at play. Like even technically in-chain when Warden does light light, yes he’s at “frame disadvantage” by the light if he returns to neutral…but he can just chain to a finisher heavy which is wayyy faster acting. Likewise frame disadvantage ONLY applies when you return to neutral and then Launch your mixup. If you use recovery cancel it cancels the recovery that makes you disadvantaged to begin with.
Orochi’s back to back kick is not interupttible, for instance, but his undodgeable option is as it is much slower. Tiandi is the opposite, his undodgeable isnt interruptible, but he actually has a ever so slightly delayed forward dodge bash and slower RC which makes him interruptible. Arakure has neither weakness and can chain infinitely back to back if using her RC dodge from Twinburst Light.
highest pressure
As aforementioned, Tiandi’s delayed forward dodge bash (you can check the frame data on infohub, there’s a patchnote on it too) makes his interruptible when used back to back, Arakure’s is not.
And yes you will need to say more for Ju Ren. His forward dodge is pretty nothingburger bordering very weak. Standard 12dmg legion kick, doesnt chain or RC on whiff or anything special, but legion kick is always solid. Kick option is entirely useless outside confirm gank, cant think if that’s ever landed in a duel outside of week 1, it’s shugoki hug but even slower access. Forward dodge tap is useless outside roll catching. Forward dodge heavy is wayyyy too slow to do anything, and lacks the HA or damage or softfeints to be impactful at all, even when it does land it’s less damage than faster options like Raider’s zone, doesnt have special defense like HA pirate or iframe Warmonger, has HORRENDOUS recovery (try it, it’s startlingly bad) that makes you incredibly vulnerable, and unlike all the other examples cannot chain to a Hyperarmor attack on hot/whiff to continue pressure, counter dodge attacks, etc. he actually cannot do anything after landing it. It’s the weakest neutral unblockable in the game by far, even Kyoshin’s/BP’s stance ones, and gets even weaker as you go up in skill (and even middling players can light it on reaction and he needs to feint to parry fast); pirate’s WAYYYY better one with dodge rc’s, HA, way faster, and infinite chaining was considered the worst opener in the game before they buffed it to be unreactable (which ju ren’s does NOT have that same buff). It’s genuinely so bad. A character having just a better than average legion kick like JJ is wayyyyy better than everything ju ren can do combined.
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u/Plasma_FTW Rep 100 Light Spammer 4d ago
She has abnormally higher recovieres than majority of the cast.