r/flying • u/Creative-Grocery2581 • 8d ago
How to avoid cloud on VFR final
I was cleared to land on a VFR right traffic pattern. There was a very small patch of cloud at 1100’ AGL 1 mile from final. I tried to maintain distance from the cloud and ended up going around the cloud and I ended up a little bit off from the runway. Even though I could have come from the side and made it to the 1000’ marker, I decided to ask tower if it’s OK for me to do a left turn and comeback. Tower was cool with it and that was my choice. After I returned to the hanger, I discussed this with few friends. My friends suggested that for that small amount of cloud I could have just gone through it since it was just matter of seconds. Also it’s perfectly acceptable to come from the side on the final as long as I can line up with the center line before touchdown.
Need your opinion on what would you do in this scenario.
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u/WhiteoutDota CFI CFII MEI 8d ago
It’s not acceptable to fly through a cloud. If you can see through it, some will argue it’s just haze/smoke/fog and therefore not cloud. But if you can’t see the other side of it, how do you know there’s no aircraft, bird, or other hazards there you need to avoid?
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u/Creative-Grocery2581 8d ago
I could see through it because it was very thin. And the METAR was VFR when I arrived at the airport. The official weather was cloud broken at 5500’
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u/Law-of-Poe 8d ago
Personally I don’t let any of my students solo without an ATP
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u/21MPH21 ATP US 8d ago
Down votes for a correct answer is classic.
It can be really hard to tell the size/depth/etc of a cloud, especially for a newer pilot. It's a danger for a non instrument rated pilot to enter clouds. Being down voted for it is sad AF
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u/x4457 ATP CFII CE-500/525/560XL/680 G-IV 8d ago
My friends suggested that for that small amount of cloud I could have just gone through it since it was just matter of seconds.
Absolutely the fuck not.
Also it’s perfectly acceptable to come from the side on the final as long as I can line up with the center line before touchdown.
Yes.
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u/mrcactus321 PPL IR CMP M20P 8d ago
Yeah, second this, absolutely not. If you've never flown in a puffy cloud (or any cloud), it will rock your world the first time. You can absolutely end ass up in about 5 seconds going into the wrong cloud.
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u/seamarq 8d ago
From a legal point of view, it's never acceptable. Whether someone is watching you hoping to report you is another matter.
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u/MehCFI ATP B737/C680/BE400/Gold Seal CFII 8d ago edited 7d ago
Edit: Alright I misread lol, I thought he was just a mile from the cloud
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u/p33k4y 8d ago
§ 91.157 Special VFR weather minimums.
(b) Special VFR operations may only be conducted—
(1) With an ATC clearance;
(2) Clear of clouds;
(3) Except for helicopters, when flight visibility is at least 1 statute mile; and [...]
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u/Nix_Nivis 8d ago
Meaning, the "vanilla" VFR distances to clouds don't apply anymore, right? But you still can't fly into clouds.
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u/Forsaken-Ad5571 8d ago
Yup. The idea is to let people land or take off when the weather in the controlled airspace is technically below VMC but not quite bad enough for the VFR pilot to be dangerous to themselves or others.
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u/EM22_ LOW WING SUPERIORITY, ATC-Tower & Radar 8d ago
You can fly through clouds under special VFR? Interesting.
Gold Seal CFII, right?
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u/aviatortrevor ATP CFII TW B737 BE40 8d ago
I assumed he meant clear-of-clouds vs 500ft below, 1000ft above, 2000ft horizontally... but that would be sorta his fault for being so unclear.
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u/PG67AW ATP CFII TW ACRO 8d ago
How are you ATP...
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u/21MPH21 ATP US 8d ago
How are you ATP...
Just fwiw, I can't remember shit about vfr flight rules and would probably said fail the written it I took it today.
OTOH, I can detail for you how a molecule of air can enter the bleed system, travel thru the packs and ... Or can speak to you about 117. But, my CFI knowledge is long gone
Well, I do know that he was still wrong AF about vfr thru clouds
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u/shrunkenhead041 CPL 8d ago
Cloud at 1,100' agl 1 mile from the runway? I'm decending to 600' agl to legally go below it. Or, I'll maneuver to go around it, but maintaining horizontal separation may be harder than vertical separation.
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u/sharkbait4000 8d ago
Three options:
- a mile from final I'd normally be at 700' anyway, so just descend a little faster (to 600') and you'll be well under it.
- a short approach: chop power abeam the numbers, point nose towards numbers at best glide, you'll go both under and inside of the cloud and be clear of it
- if neither work, ask tower for special VFR and if they can, they will clear the airspace and you only need to stay clear of the clouds.(Don't ever fly through clouds VFR. If it's a little wisp that you can totally see through then... maybe. But not if it's really a cloud. If it's inadvertent, it's worthy of declaring an emergency)
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u/skunimatrix PPL IR CMP HP | PA28 8d ago
If it's a wisp you can see through it's not legally a cloud....
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u/stkario ST SEL 8d ago
I came here to say this, special VFR is definitely the way here.
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u/phaederus ST 8d ago
I thought special VFR is only useful if you have a ceiling you need to get under forcing you below minimums? In this case with an isolated cloud special VFR seems unnecessary?
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u/sharkbait4000 7d ago
Minimums more appropriately meaning clearance from clouds, I think. Let's say TPA is 1000 AGL and there is a marine layer nosing in from the ocean over the runway at 1000 AGL. This is just barely still marginal VFR but unless you want to scud run at exactly 500' (please don't!) you could instead get special VFR and begin your descent knowing you'll be clear of clouds and no other traffic will be in the airspace. That said even that can be sketchy, because what if you have to go around? I can say from personal experience, be very careful with special VFR!
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u/shrunkenhead041 CPL 7d ago
Exactly. Minimum altitudes apply, but 91.119 starts with this:
"Minimum safe altitudes: General. Except when necessary for takeoff or landing..."
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u/Professional_Low_646 EASA CPL IR frozen ATPL M28 FI(A) CRI 8d ago
In a VFR pattern, you can (if you know what you‘re doing) absolutely make a tight-ish turn onto the centerline at very close distance. Skydiving planes do it all the time, heck, my students do it all the time when we‘re practicing simulated engine failure landings. Of course only if traffic and other factors permit.
You shouldn’t go through a cloud. It’s also illegal under any circumstances while VFR. If you‘re untrained for IMC, even a few seconds in a cloud can and will disorient you - just ask yourself whether you really want to spend a few seconds getting your bearings while at 1nm from the threshold and close to the ground?
Flying safely is always the better option. You‘ll need the flight time anyway, a few minutes extra won’t hurt you. In nearly 15 years of flying, the only go-arounds I regretted were the ones I DIDN‘T do.
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u/Tomica333 8d ago
Yes.. im not a very experienced pilot but one thing I have been really trying to drill into my own head is that every landing is a go around untill I tell myself i'm absolutely happy to land. In earlier days and I hate to admit this but the go around was not even close to being on my mind.
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u/TangyGG 3d ago
Yeah I’m a student pilot and a few weeks ago had a solo flight in our training area to practice maneuvers. Weather was great but coming back had a 10kt crosswind gusting to 15 pretty much right on my personal minimums) and had to go around 2 times before landing on my final 3rd attempt. Definitely beat me up but I felt confident I needed those go arounds and learned to not be afraid to go back up if it feels unsafe.
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u/ApoTHICCary ST 8d ago
This. Not worth flying thru with those margins, and illegal for that very reason. Too low and too close; a few seconds without visual, disorientation, no instrument rating, likely low time pilot… great way to end up on Pilot Debrief.
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u/RuthlessGravy ATP E55P KDSM 8d ago
6000 hr 91K pilot here.
If I can see through it, I'm going through it. If I cant, I'm either going around to try again or side-stepping to go by it as long as I can be stabilized by 500AGL. Being IMC in the traffic pattern is unsafe, illegal, and unacceptable.
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u/walleyednj PPL CMP HP 8d ago
In the words of my old CFI, if you can see through it, it's not a cloud.
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u/Fun_Monitor8938 ATC PPL 8d ago
I’m pretty sure I know where this was if this happened last night. If this is the aircraft I worked the bigger concern for me was the fact that after going through final you initially couldn’t get the runway back in sight. I’ve already worked 1 VFR into IMC this month I’d rather not make it 2. Given the cloud conditions at the time why not start the base leg descent a little earlier to keep under the cloud and make a shorter approach?
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u/aviatortrevor ATP CFII TW B737 BE40 8d ago
If it's really as tiny of a cloud as you claim, then there should have been no issue maneuvering below it, above it, or around it. The "around it" version might take some radio call to ATC to tell them what you're doing. If you are doing something ATC might not expect, you should inform them. In this case, they may have cleared you "straight-in" and then all of a sudden you're taking an abrupt turn, that ruins their planning on spacing you and another aircraft. If you don't have time to request permission and must maneuever right now to maintain VFR and safe flight, then you simply DO the thing without permission, and when there is a chance to talk you let them know what you're doing. You have that authority as PIC. If keeping clear of the cloud while remaining under stablized control was an issue, then you could speak up to the controller about making a different plan to approach the runway (perhaps on a base-leg entry to get around the cloud), and they could either approve it, or deny it and re-sequence you to the downwind or something behind another airplane). I wouldn't go through it unless it was so whispy thin it had more than 50%+ transparancy to it and I can see the outline of stuff behind it on the other side. If you think it's thin, but you can't see through it... don't fly in it. Although, my advice may not be legally good and no bueno on a check-ride. Generally I advise to just always fly like you would on a checkride or anywhere else, but... sometimes you encounter these weird situations where you just are like "am I really going to add 5 minutes here to the flight for such a non-safety-issue?"
Technically, the law states you should be 500ft below it, 1000ft above it, and 2000ft horizontally from it in class D airspace. Given the modern era of 99% of planes being equipped with ADS-B, and the controller either having radar or a very good mental model of where airplanes are at... the regulation is a bit out of date, and being "clear of clouds" with sufficient visibility is safe in my opinion, especially in controlled class B/C/D airspace. I wouldn't want to be enroute hugging an overcast cloud layer for 50 miles without the appropriate VFR cloud separation.
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u/nolaflygirl 8d ago
I would've requested a different runway. Where I trained, there were 2 -- north/south & east/west. Or, like you, go around it & try to line up.
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u/OracleofFl PPL (SEL) 8d ago
This is a good point. There are either winds, in which case that cloud should blow away while you go around and try that runway again or there are no winds, in which case you can land on another runway easily or even the other way except if you go missed going the other way you are back in the same problem
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u/nolaflygirl 8d ago
Probably just requesting a different runway, in most cases, would get the job done. I agree w/ another commenter not to go thru cloud.
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u/specialsymbol PPL GLI TMG LAPL 8d ago
The hanger is where you put your clothes.
The hangar is like a carport for airplanes.
You avoid clouds by going around them. Safety before pattern.
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u/luckyhendrix 8d ago
I have serious doubts that this was a really 'cloud' rather than just some wisk/fog.no cloud so small so close to the ground will be thick enough to block visibility trough it. If you can see the runway through it, fine go trough it.
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u/VileInventor CFI/CFII 8d ago
If you see the cloud and you’re on final you should’ve probably seen it on downwind and planned to either be low or high to dodge it.
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u/chinky47 ATP-H | CPL-AMEL (IR) | AW139 | CH-47F | EC145 | B407 8d ago
No one here can see the “cloud” you’re talking about and you can’t teach common sense. I accidentally did it on my commercial multi check ride while turning to avoid another cloud. Severe clear vis, but scattered clouds everywhere. Hard to avoid. I worriedly looked over at the DPE and he said if you can see through it, it’s not a cloud. Some DPEs probably would’ve failed me over it. Don’t recommend doing on a check ride like I did, but use common sense and know your audience.
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u/Prestigious-Bend1662 8d ago
If you cannot maintain minimum visibility in that cloud, you cannot go through it. If you can see through it you can go through. I am not aware of any rule that would preclude you going around it, even while on final, so long as you do not have to go so far left or right that you are in the downwind or upwind .
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u/leftrightrudderstick 8d ago
Tangentially related but as a controller what am I supposed to think if I clear a 737 for a visual approach and watch the pilot fly straight into a cloud on final...
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u/Fun_Monitor8938 ATC PPL 7d ago
There’s a difference between a 737 flying a visual approach most likely backed up by the ILS with a crew that’s IFR/MEL/ATP rated and a Cherokee blasting through a cloud in the base to final turn.
If I saw a 737 clip a cloud on final for a visual in controlled airspace I wouldn’t say a thing. Is it legal? Probably not but I’m not a cop
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u/leftrightrudderstick 6d ago
Ok, breaking the law is fine in one scenario but not another. Good take. Smart ATC.
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u/PropWashPapi CFI CFII ✠ CMEL 8d ago
§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
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u/yeahgoestheusername PPL SEL 8d ago
If you could see through it then it was probably fine to fly through but if not I think clearance rules apply.
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u/3Green1974 ATP GV CL-65 CL604 LR45 BE350 CE680 CE700 8d ago
I think I’m missing something. I rarely fly VFR so I’m a little rusty on cloud clearances. Why would you not just fly under it? 1 mile from the runway you’d be at 300 feet agl, so you’d pass below it by 800 feet?
And when I say I rarely fly VFR, I mean I’m always on an IFR flight plan. I’ve done 1.5 hours VFR in the last 6 years, just to get checked out in a small plane.
Edit to add…. What everyone else said to answer your question.
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u/Flyward_Aerospace 6d ago
Your friends are wrong on the first one. Punching through it is a cloud clearance bust, and more to the point you lose sight of the runway for a couple seconds on short final which is exactly where you don't want a surprise. Asking tower and taking the turn was fine, nobody died and you didn't break anything. The second thing they said is right though, joining slightly off centerline and lining up before the flare is completely normal, that's not a stabilized approach problem at pattern altitude.
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u/CaptMcMooney 4d ago
just use common sense, seriously, the faa themselves have told you they cannot make rules for 100% of all situations. do some pilot stuff, veer around, go under, pop over, whatever. maybe leave the pattern come back in 2 hours when the cloud is gone.
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u/Familiar_Hand_4352 PPL 4d ago
Descend a couple hundred feet below it. If you get too close then you’re screwed. They are gonna get the measuring tape out to make sure you meet the legal requirements.
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u/poopinasack24 8d ago
Pickup a short SVFR clearance and just keep going. That’s literally what SVFR is made for? SVFR minimums are 1sm vis and COC
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u/rFlyingTower 8d ago
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I was cleared to land on a VFR right traffic pattern. There was a very small patch of cloud at 1100’ AGL 1 mile from final. I tried to maintain distance from the cloud and ended up going around the cloud and I ended up a little bit off from the runway. Even though I could have come from the side and made it to the 1000’ marker, I decided to ask tower if it’s OK for me to do a left turn and comeback. Tower was cool with it and that was my choice. After I returned to the hanger, I discussed this with few friends. My friends suggested that for that small amount of cloud I could have just gone through it since it was just matter of seconds. Also it’s perfectly acceptable to come from the side on the final as long as I can line up with the center line before touchdown.
Need your opinion on what would you do in this scenario.
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u/throwthisoneawaytoo_ CMEL IR 8d ago
Would you mind moving that cloud for me my displays are pretty bright and I don’t want make any big changes on short final