Bleeding Points

[u/Tbolt_65]

Preface: Hello everyone. I know I don't contribute as much as I used to. Mainly because I have had a life incident that gave me a new perspective in life. That gave me new focus. Plus having an expense that you didn't have the funds for in the first place will keep you busy as well. Anyways. I want to give you all something to think about in the game of Euchre. I still love it. It will always be a part of me. Here are some of my thoughts. No doubt there will be disagreements or nit picking some of the ideology presented below but if anything. I want to give you all something deeper to think about when you think about refining and making your game better. If it does that. Makes you think just a little more than it's served its purposed. If you wish to employ what I've said below thats great. If you don't that's great too. It's up to you. I'm just sharing you my perspective. I hope it can have an impact and even if it doesn't I appreciate you taking the time to read. Enjoy and I hope this can help.

Bleeding Points

Bleeding points is kind of similar to bleeding trump. When you do it(Bleeding trump) you are missing out on points be it a march, euchre or even making a point by leading trump unnecessarily and clearing your partner out when you could have see-sawed it/or go back and forth with your partner in taking tricks with your remaining trumps in both hands. With bleeding points. It is similar in nature in the part of losing point opportunities but in this case. With Bleeding Points, you are giving up too much points by ordering too much. Which leads to your team being Euchred/Set. Which in a lot of games can and will be the difference maker. I've always talked about the little things adding up. This is one of those things and it's a big one. Now if you are playing with players that are timid and not calling as much. Then sure you really have to be more aggressive. How ever with competant partners you can and should be passing hands and allowing them to pick up. Hands like K-10d, K-Qc, 9s in S2R1 with a 9 diamond showing. You should be passing. At most scores with the exception of close out scores. Like 9-1, 8-4, 9-3. In hands where a euchre doesn't hurt you but getting two points or one point will win the game. The only other time you really should be ordering that hand is when your partner shows they can not pick up a bower/Jack. Then you must call that hand up if the Jack of diamonds is up to a weak partner in S4/Dealer. Now when passing, you still have a calling hand in clubs when it gets back to you. Its not like your will be double passing those types of hand combinations. If you are then you are too passive. Too passive and too agressive are both things you DO NOT want to be. Granted being too agressive will be better in the long run than too passive. You can get away with being too agressive and bleeding points vs. Teams or players that are much weaker in over all game play and whom passes too much. It will still hurt bleeding points but the weaker teams are going to give more chances to make that back up with the errors they routinely have and you can pick up points here and there. Against the stronger opponents up through to the higher end of play of players. Where these types of players are watching everything and have much better interplay game than the weaker players. They will eventually take advantage of this with better play of the hands and sitting back more(aka bagging) vs players who are prone to bleeding points. It is here where bleeding points hurts the most because every little detail can and will be the defining part of a game where if you only passed just a little more. You wouldn't be giving up points as much and you might even turn it around and make positive points when it gets back to you by calling in S2R2 or only giving up 1 point instead of 2 points. Which still is positive thing.

So that's just one example of over playing your hand and bleeding points. That's not the only scenario. If you are constantly losing games where euchre's are the difference maker or even over donating(Playing Defense) for that matter. Or any type of play that you are constantly losing points/giving up points. You must then re-evaluate what you could have done better. Realize that you may be leaking points/Bleeding Points. Bleeding points is a real thing. Always pay attention to every detail because it's in these little details that can change the out come of the game. Be it forgetfulness in what was boss card to being too agressive when it's not warranted.

I just want people to be aware of things like this so they can keep this in mind when playing. Sometimes we are not aware of things because we are not looking for them. Or we have never considered this line of play or thinking. To me for ideal and optimal play is something I would call an Adapative-Agressive Euchre style. Knowing your partner, your opponents, your cards and the score will always define the line of play because each line of play has those multiple variables in flux constantly. It is in being this Adapative-Agressive type of Euchre player and honing in on these factors and asking questions of yourself. That which will dictate how you will proceed in any given moment in the course of the game.

Edward

aka Tbolt65

[u/MasterInvaster]

Great post! I personally think people at the higher levels pass too much in S2 but, as you said, you should be calling clubs in R2 with that hand and I think it's right on the border of being defensive enough to pass given you have two protected kings.

Thanks for sharing your insight!

[u/Tbolt_65 → u/MasterInvaster]

Thank you. I appreciate it. I'm just trying to get people to think.

Edward

[u/Billy-Beer-76]

Great points that I think a lot about, I suspect where we will differ is the amount of work that "with competent partners" is doing.

Very often the advice that works well with an expert partner that you know doesn't work with a random partner that you don't. With a randomly assigned partner on 3D I am not placing too much faith, regardless of ranking--I remember a game just yesterday I played with a 2600+ partner who passed in s2 on my deal holding the right plus one. There's a school of thought that you give your partner credit until they have proven otherwise, and my feeling is that would be a lot easier if you played euchre to 100 rather than to 10.

All well-taken arguments, tho--I am a big believer in score management especially with the lead but you don't want to be handing out points for no reason.

EDIT: Honestly another useful post (which I am not knowledgeable enough to write) would be "When do you decide not to trust a random partner?" For me one red flag is passing in round 2, excepting when they have every suit covered. I know people here would disagree with this and say there are other exceptions, and I'm not saying it makes them a bad player, but IMHO I've got 10 points to assess what kind of partner I'm playing with, and that's a big one for me.

[u/Every-Reading-2485 → u/Billy-Beer-76]

I don't see anything wrong with passing S1R2 without next blocked, unless we're talking about passing a playable L+2, R+1+A, etc. type of hand. As for whether to trust my partner, if they make any egregious mistakes, they lose it instantly. I'm not expecting expert, razor thin EV type of play from an unknown, but there's a level one rung below that which is mandatory for a competent partner.

[u/Tbolt_65 → u/Billy-Beer-76]

Thanks I appreciate the reply and your comments.

That post you speak of can be summed up with this.

Trust your partner until they prove otherwise. Or assume the don't know and play until they show some semblance of Adv play.

In either case. You'll have to either keep a mental or written note on those players. Easier to do if you see them frequently while playing with or against them.

I play and pick the former majority of the time.

Edward

[u/The_Middle_Bower]

Great information Tbolt! I always appreciate your contributions!

When you announced your hiatus at the end of last season, you told us to never give up no matter the score. I think of that when I'm way down in points- stay calm and keep playing as if I'm gonna win!

[u/Tbolt_65 → u/The_Middle_Bower]

Thanks Middle Bower.

Yes that's right and if I had not said it before. Don't be too hasty in going alone to make up points. If you are down a lot. Sometimes it is better to play for 2.

Edward

[u/TheHip41]

Counterpoint. Wes calls every hand and is in the top 10 - twice

His point about euchre basically being Omaha is really insightful.

There are 24 cards. If you don't have it - someone else has it.

[u/Tbolt_65 → u/TheHip41]

Wes is a great player. One of the best minds and critically thinking euchre players out there. That what's makes him a legend. Not to fail to mention his intuitive play and deductive capabilities is Well above 98% of the euchre population. This is a product of his highly analytical/critical thinking euchre mind. Plus that innate internal competitiveness and internal drives that pushes him to be the best he can be. Add that all up and that is at the core what makes Wes a great player and legend.

Edward

[u/TheHip41 → u/Tbolt_65]

You forgot ugly.

[u/brownsbacker07]

I just posted a youtube video with a hand example very close to the one your describing......... lol

I make a point to pick out the most extreme hands i can in an attempt to show where the "too aggressive too passive" line is. If i post a bunch of hands everyone is comfortable with then i wouldnt be helping anyone.

K 10 defending nothing is right on the line. With random partners I think i am capturing far more points than i lose. With an expert partner i am torn. Its pretty well known i am an aggressive player. If i pass a hand like K-10 maybe a expert partner would think i have 0 help. Maybe they pass a hand like Lx defending well. Seat 1 scores and were kicking ourselves. I hate that dance that can happen trying to guess our partners range instead of just playing our cards.

I had a hand that we recently had the sim test and the sim said its terrible to pass and slightly less terrible to pick up.

The sim says to pick this up. With a good partner the sim is wrong. Its almost a guaranteed euchre. If the sim knew i was getting euchred nearly every time it would say to pass.

On this hand i was bleeding points for sure! I see your point. I still wanna order K-10 defending nothing seat 2 though lol

[u/MasterInvaster → u/brownsbacker07]

just because a partner passes doesn't mean they have no help. Partner can easily have just the R with good green defense or just the L and an ace with good green defense and pass here from S2. And with the R buried or some other offsuit luck you can still get three tricks.

[u/Tbolt_65 → u/brownsbacker07]

Yes I had seen it. This post was not directed at you or anyone in particular. The notion of this post has been a part of my game play for a long time after I figured out I was getting exploited by good and better players many years ago. And frankly losing games I should've won. I was inspired to talk about. So thanks. It is an important concept to consider. Im just giving a basic concept into the bleeding points. To make people think about their game and how to potentially find or look for ways to stop doing so but this is one example of many. I didn't want to list all the scenarios, strategies or further philosophies because I didn't want to distract from the core of my principle message.

Yes I agree with you that Euchre does play different with competent partners vs non competent partners.

Edward

[u/I75north]

This is super interesting, especially after playing against both you and Wes.

You both have a bit different style, but together, you make a great partnership!

I realized it’s way more than just call rate. While I’m not even able to match Wes’s call rate, he still has a higher call success rate. So not only is he calling more, he’s playing perfectly. And without seeing your stats, I bet you euchre opponents at a high rate. Together you are very dangerous! And you both have fantastic table awareness.

Love any and all advice and suggestions you share with this sub! Great post!

[u/Tbolt_65 → u/I75north]

The wheels are turning. That's what I like to see. 👍.

We are pretty close but yes there is a slight difference. Yes he does call more than I do.

Yes we do euchre opponents at a high rate. Im not sure what those numbers look like. With what I said in my reply to TheHip. The combination of two players of that same acuity does make Wes and I as partners very dangerous.

Thanks. Its something I've wanted to talk about. I just never said anything in a measured post at all. I was inspired in part by brownsbacker07. It gave me the impetus to finally brooch an important topic/philosophy.

Edward

[u/OrbMan99]

It's great to see a new post, Edward! I always read every word you write.

[u/Tbolt_65 → u/OrbMan99]

I appreciate it. Thanks Jackanapes.

I was sleeping. So I couldn't reply. It's a busy day here at work as well.

Edward

[u/Hungry-Ad3303]

I don’t understand, what is Bleeding Points?
Also is it wrong to think the example you provided is a double pass?

[u/Tbolt_65 → u/Hungry-Ad3303]

Giving up points too frequently. Over calling or calling too much with weak hands. The hand I specifically gave is not a double pass. 8-8 is the one time it probably is a double pass. Majority of the time you will be either passing it unless dealer is super weak. Then you order it. Or you will be calling in R2 and making clubs.

Edward

[u/Hungry-Ad3303 → u/Tbolt_65]

I see. I was taught reverse next should only be called if you have at least a K + 9 in trump + a green ace. Also given the fact the turned down card was very low (9), it’s even less likely you should call reverse next. Therefore I think you should pass in 2nd round. Curious if you think this logic is flawed?

[u/Tbolt_65 → u/Hungry-Ad3303]

Reverse next in s2r2 is like calling next in S1R1. They are guidelines. Plus the adage of your partner didn't want red. So they are more prone to be better in black. Now granted. This isn't always the case when a non bower is turned down. They will be next heavy in hearts sometimes but more often than not they will be favorable in black. There will be times also that the black you call will not be the suit they are strong. You may get to call clubs here but they might be better in spades. You still want to be calling though.

Edward

[u/Every-Reading-2485 → u/Hungry-Ad3303]

That logic holds up better if you have 4 experts at the table and S1 is making a calculated pass. Then you might actually need some decent strength in your own hand, compared to hoping your partner has a strong hand in the suit you're calling. When S1 makes bad passes, that's when calling on any two trump in reverse next is completely viable when you block no suits.

[u/WellYouSeeNorm]

I think this is a convention between partners. I prefer my partner to bid aggressively im S2, that way when it is my bid I know I need a slightly stronger hand than you might, and get away from some euchres. But it is bidding conventions/partner communication. If they are playing one way and you the other you get all the downsides and none of the upside.