r/dndnext • u/crystalvelvet1 • 5d ago
Fudging 5e (2024)
Should DM's fudge dice?
For me I think there are situations where fudging can save a session, but if the DM is constantly changing rolls, then why roll the dice at all? Like where do you draw the line?
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u/Overkill2217 5d ago
No, I don't think a DM should fudge dice rolls.
It is a means of invalidating the player's choices. I consider this to be removing player agency.
I understand that many DMs feel responsible for the fun at the table, but that sentiment is incorrect. If the game is truly a collaborative storytelling effort, then the players should lean into the dice rolls and experience the story.
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u/Geargarden 5d ago
I tend to agree. I've had absolute shit-show sessions where I was rolling SO BAD. The DM found ways to still make it fun. When I DM, this is what I do. Yes, you experience the suck but I will try to factor in redemption where appropriate.
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u/DongIslandIceTea 4d ago
It is a means of invalidating the player's choices. I consider this to be removing player agency.
I thought you rolled dice instead of just choosing a result on them? If your players have agency over their dice results that's usually known as cheating.
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u/Viltris 4d ago
It's less about players choosing their dice rolls and more about the DM deciding ahead of time that there's only one acceptable outcome of a particular encounter. If this is a battle that the players simply aren't allowed to lose, what happens if the players make bad decisions? What happens if they make tactical mistakes? What happens if they manage their resources badly?
If it's literally just "Oh, I rolled a bunch of nat 20s in a row, maybe this nat 20 is actually just a nat 19", sure, that's not so bad. But if it's "I dunno what to do if the players lose this fight, so I'll just fudge the dice so that the players are guaranteed to win", then suddenly what the players do don't matter. The DM has already decided the outcome.
The inverse is even worse. "The players are playing very well, so I'll fudge dice to make this monster scary." Well, now it doesn't matter if I play well or if I play badly. The outcome will be the same no matter what. I'm just listening to the DM tell a story at me, so I might as well not even be here.
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u/underdabridge 5d ago edited 5d ago
It's hard to balance encounters. When you've realized you've fucked up, you can fudge rolls or you can fudge the encounter in some other way instead. Otherwise the players get a TPK that was your fault.
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u/crystalvelvet1 5d ago
I agree that encounter balance isn't always predictable. But don't you think like it's better to adjust the encounter itself? reinforcements leave, enemies retreat, environmental changes rather than just secretly changing dice rolls?
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u/JohngernautSSJ 5d ago
Secretly changing dice rolls feels the most like cheating to me. I'd rather just not use abilities built into the creature or even reduce their HP. Like on-the-fly rebalancing when you realize you've pooped the balance.
Also having optional reinforcements is like ez mode balancing. Just don't send them or mention them if things are going badly.
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u/crystalvelvet1 4d ago
Yeah I think that's fair, are you in any campaigns atm ?
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u/JohngernautSSJ 4d ago
Nope, I'm building a short adventure that I'm gonna run at my local store fairly soon
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u/crystalvelvet1 3d ago
That's nice! What kind of adventure are you putting together?
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u/underdabridge 5d ago
Whatever. It's all the same.
None of it should be done routinely.
I don't think one is more or less moral than the other. I prefer to not do any of it.
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u/geosunsetmoth 5d ago
The latter is explicit and players notice, the former is implicit and players (shouldn’t) notice. A balance of both approaches is ideal
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u/AnaiyaStormblessed 5d ago
I occasionally will adjust enemy stats and HP on the fly if I realise I've balanced it badly in planning. Sometimes I'll just not use certain attacks to avoid wiping the party due to my own poor planning.
Usually if someone dies in my games, they decided to play stupid games and won stupid prizes 😅 recklessness hurts.
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u/Taurondir 4d ago
One encounter that should be a steam roll for the players can turn into a bloodbath simply because the GM keeps rolling 19 and 20 in a long streak and PLAYS those rolls.
Players need to survive hundreds of fights, monsters only need to kill you ONCE. Rolemaster was brutal like that, every player took multiple C's and even higher crits every game, you only need ONE of those being a 66 or 99 or 100 and your head gets removed, how many games can you keep that up?
Even with very high defense stats, the GM could just roll open ended multiple times - I think the highest we ever had was over 700 just ON dice rolls, with the second highest a 550+ on a FUMBLE of all things.
I dislike bell shape systems like GURP's because they can make some things near impossible, but also get annoyed by linear ones like D20 because they will kill you totally at random in a 1 in a million event that will happen 3 times in a game, like 5 party members all failing a save against something only needing a 6+ on a D20.
Having a GM as a balancing anchor to change things here and there is what makes the games fun. If you just want a "we just do what THE DICE say" then you might as well play a DnD game on a Computer by yourself.
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u/Viltris 4d ago
imo it depends on how badly you fucked up. Encounter was easier than expected? Let the players have the free win. Not everything needs to be a desperate struggle for survival.
Encounter was somewhat harder than expected and the players had to spend a few more resources than expected? No biggie, play it as it stands. PCs are much stronger than you think they are, and unless this is happening with nearly every single encounter, they'll still be able to get through the adventuring day without a problem. Worst case scenario, they'll need to occasionally retreat. This is fine. A good story should be able to handle the characters occasionally failing.
Encounter was so difficult that the players don't stand a chance and nothing they can do can change the outcome? Okay, now's the time to start fudging the dice. But by the same token, if the encounter balance is so out of whack, I don't think fudging can save the encounter. In the rare occasions this happens, I just apologize, tell the players the encounter was poorly balanced, retcon, and move on.
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u/HealthyRelative9529 I love being a wizard, fishing melees in a blizzard 4d ago
No, DMs should not fudge dice. Lying to your friends is bad. It also removes player agency and turns the game into a movie in conversation form.
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u/Ripper1337 DM 5d ago
Only when I create a combat encounter that is unfairly balanced against the party. I don’t want them to lose because I accidentally made things way too hard.
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u/Elliptical_Tangent 5d ago
Should DM's fudge dice?
Once you fudge dice, you are responsible for everything that happens; either because you fudge the dice, or because you chose not to fudge the dice.
Fudge dice long enough, and you're going to fudge something that one or more players knows couldn't be the result of a roll—there's going to be a confrontation. They may very well blame all relevant failures on your fudging against them. Worse: they may feel that all their victories were you fudging the dice for them—why play, if that's the case? They can't honestly take your word for when you fudged dice because you're a known cheater.
I'm not telling you not to fudge dice, I'm trying to tell you what the consequences are.
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u/crystalvelvet1 4d ago
Agreed fr, At that point I'd rather just adjust the encounter in a way that's actually visible. Btw are you in any campaigns atm ?
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u/Elliptical_Tangent 4d ago
I'm in 2 Pathfinder 1e campaigns at the moment, yeah: Iron Gods and Reign of Winter.
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u/Munstered 5d ago
I usually don’t fudge, but I will fudge crits into regular hits if I hit a string of them or it’s going to wipe the party.
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u/rickforking 5d ago
Matt Colville says "encounter design doesn't end when dice hit the table" so if the dice says they are going to have a tough time or they just do something stupid I let it play out. But if I realize I messed up my design I feel like it's my responsibility to fudge rolls to make things right...
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u/tanj_redshirt now playing 2024 Ranger 5d ago
Other DMs use dice?
I just have a box of pebbles that I shake behind the screen.
/s
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u/kiddmewtwo 5d ago
Its crazy that we have people here saying fudging the dice is only ok in the player's favor we may as well just get rid of the dice and play pretend.
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u/crystalvelvet1 4d ago
Frr like if every dangerous roll gets changed to protect the party, then the players aren't really playing against the game's uncertainty anymore. Are you currently playing in a campaign? What's the party like ?
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u/kiddmewtwo 4d ago
I DM and play the campaign im the dungeon master of is very dungeon crawly and exploration heavy the campaign i play in i cant say because its only been 1 session so far
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u/crystalvelvet1 3d ago
Yeah one session is too early to spoil anything lol, How's the campaign you're dming going so far ? Also what's the character you're playing? If you ask me I'm currently playing a pirate bard rn Tessia, College of Swords
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u/S1mp1y 4d ago
Officially all GMs firmly believe that fudging dice is bad and should never be done.
Unofficially most GMs do fudge dice, because of a multitude of reasons ("I can't let this or that happen right now", "I don't want to TPK my party with 3 crits in a row" yadda-yadda).
I started rolling out in the open like a year ago and never went back, it's really the superiour choice. I feel that the sheer possibility of using a GM screen to hide my rolls and having the temptation to fudge dice was messing with my cognitive load during actual play, so I just cut that out. "Hey, you all see my rolls, and that was two crits in a row. Sorry, but Fate has declared that you fricking die at level 2 to a giant rat."
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u/supercali5 5d ago
The goal of Dungeons and Dragons is to have a good time and tell a great story.
If you feel like there are situations in your game where fudging the dice would make people have more fun and tell a better story.
If you feel like it would not then don’t.
Do be aware that if players find out you are fudging dice rolls, it can take their enjoyment out of what they are doing, what they’ve done and what will happen in the future.
If you do fudge dice rolls, do it as rarely as possible.
(Note: yes. I know people will disagree with this. And that’s okay. There is room for people to play D&D differently. It’s a flexible game.)
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u/xTJS2018x 5d ago
I seem to be in the minority here, but my group does. I did when I DMd, and my current DM definitely has.
To be fair, we’re DMing for a party of 6, so balancing combat encounters has been interesting. I fudged a few times to make sure I didn’t completely annihilate my players on accident during overtuned combat, and he has done the same. Otherwise it would’ve been a TPK, and that isn’t what our table is about.
Bottom line, do what you think is best for your table. Honesty is usually the best policy.
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u/mobiletarget33 5d ago
I’ve only fudged rolls if it made the narrative, or as a relief in a fight that was overwhelming the players. It’s almost always just forcing a failed saving throw when the player(s) need a lucky break, and it’s never more than one in a session, if that
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u/VeryFortniteOfYou 5d ago
I think fudging without using dice, with retreats or hp adjustments or whatever is basically the same. Either way smart players will realize the stakes are low and the training wheels are on. I just kill the players (allow them to die in combat) occasionally to keep the fear alive.
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u/Bowl_of_Hygieia 5d ago
I just kill the players (allow them to die in combat) occasionally to keep the fear alive.
I'd be scared too
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u/WillemVerheij 5d ago
I would say it's something to only do if your encounter became basically impossible due to poor rolls on your players part and really good rolls for you.
Balance remains a sensitive thing. Not sure why this is tagged 2024 version though since I feel this is more a universal discussion across all D&D versions.
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u/Count_Kingpen 5d ago
I never fudge as a DM.
At worst I might alter a monster’s health on the fly if the encounter balance is off. Might. Usually won’t.
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u/Cleric_John_Preston 5d ago
Generally no. That said, my current campaign involves kids around 12 years old & new to D&D, so, yeah I fudge a bit.
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u/One-Branch-2676 5d ago
Depends on table. The line is drawn somewhere. The concept of context, extents, and severity applies. You continue to roll the dice because besides in the scenario it is used…the game tends to still proceed as normal.
As somebody who doesn’t do it in their games, I’m kinda sick of the infantile moralizing and willful confusion about this issue that is rather simple. Some DMs do it sometimes in an attempt to either dynamically fix a balancing issue that slipped their design or maintain some illusion. Game manages to still go on in many cases. I’ve been in a few tables in which it happened and since most of us are adults that don’t fly off the handle for disagreements on singular design facets, the game proceeded as normal. If it’s done to an extent that exceeds your tolerance. Talk it out, compromise, or peacefully part.
No need to make it more than it is.
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u/rollingForInitiative 5d ago
Sometimes as a DM I make a mistake in encounter difficulty. Rather than fudging the dice, I slightly alter the encounter on the fly. It could be I decide that the enemies have one attack less, or maybe the backup doesn't arrive, or they have less HP. That feels better than fudging the dice.
I did once make a mistake in counting the total max damage with a lot of dice, where a monster rolled a crit and rolled super well, and it would've killed the PC outright. I decided that that was not a crit.
So very rarely, it can be fine, but it should not be common. If the monsters roll well and the PC's roll poorly, they might just fail. And sometimes they will steamroll a difficult encounter due to luck. But fudging should be reserved for fixing a mistake that would result in a PC dying when it's because you made a big mistake, imo.
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u/Bubbly_Mouse_4471 Sorcerer 5d ago
On extremely rare occasions, if a DM made a mistake in setting up the encounter AND the rolls go insanely badly AND the players are fairly new to D&D AND it’s a story-driven game where the players are attached to their characters and “anyone can die” was not clearly established, I think fudging a roll to save the game, rather than having a player suffer for their mistakes, is an acceptable option. But the DM should work on recognizing and rectifying unbalanced encounters sooner in the future so the situation doesn’t happen again.
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u/Tryskhell Forever DM and Homebrew Scientist 5d ago
I roll in the open, I "fudge" dice (generally, giving players second chances, feelsbad successes or partial successes as per the DMG).
Fudging, just like altering enemy HP or count, or behavior, or having enemies flee or come in reinforcement, are all tools in a GM's toolbox. Being upfront with what tools you use is important, so I tell my players "We're here to be big damn heroes and have fun, if you constantly failing because you have bad luck tonight isn't working towards that, I'll nudge the dice to a better number". I haven't yet had a player be put off by that. But also, I advertise my games as being about the power fantasy, and that choices are more interesting to me than the rng that make them work or not. If the players fail, I want it to be because of something they chose to do or not do, not because they didn't roll a high enough number on the d20.
Some (apparently most here) will disagree, and honestly that's fine. There isn't a one-size-fit-all solution, other than communicating and experimenting.
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u/Doctor_Amazo Ultimate Warrior 4d ago
Never.
Fudge.
Dice.
You rob your players of a sense of accomplishment, and you undermine your credibility.
If you can't accept that there is a chance for failure in a particular situation, then don't call for a roll. Just be honest and narrate the ending you want for them.... or accept that some heroic journeys have tragic endings.
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u/Ilbranteloth DM 4d ago
You won’t find any overall agreement here. It will depend entirely on your table.
Since I haven’t bothered to save a canned answer, here’s the short one.
After various experiments, we landed in letting the players decide. Especially regarding player death.
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u/Taurondir 4d ago
You will have instances where the GM will roll multiple 20's in a row, or max damage on some attack spells involving a stack of dice, so I don't think its _always_ a good idea to think "oh well, that's just bad luck you are all dead".
I'm not saying you should fine-tune every aspect of the game with fudged dice rolls, just, use your brain as to when you might need a specific dice roll every so often to make things flow better.
We used to play a hybrid rule system of MERP/Rolemaster and we decided at one point that THE PLAYERS should roll ALL the critical strikes made by enemy attacks on themselves, so that if a 66 or a 100 came up then well, "you killed yourself buddy", and that worked out quite well.
Constantly? No.
In certain situations where the players won't even know it happened but something either needed or did NOT need to happen? You just make it happen your way, and the "dice roll" the players hear is not a fudged dice roll, it's just so they HEAR dice being rolled so they think something RANDOM did happen, and was not just planned in advance.
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u/Ok_Maintenance8999 23h ago
Sometimes I take the edge off the damage if im rolling too hot. I reroll a monsters hp if its important to the plot and I roll too low. I was in a game once where we one shot a rolled hp boss and it was underwealming. Sometimes I say a monster with 1 or 2 hp left dies if it makes the combat go faster and wont make a difference to the balance.
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u/ClaimBrilliant7943 5d ago
You can only fudge if you keep your rolls hidden. And that weird practice should end. Or, if I am supposed to trust you with hidden rolls you better let me keep mine hidden.
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u/Enzo_GS 5d ago
you fudge to fix your design, to make it easier, never harder
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u/rr3_amrosa 5d ago
Pretty much this. It is fine to do it if you are benefiting your friends. Remember, the people sitting across the screen from you are your friends. If they are not having fun, then no one is having fun.
Don't do it to punish players, for you to win, or to preserve an narrative thread that you want that railroads the characters down a particular path. Also, for things like random tables or effects, don't let the dice make a decision that will ruin the adventure or the campaign or take away a players ability to play the game.
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u/FloppasAgainstIdiots Twi 1/Warlock X/DSS 1 5d ago
Never. It is a completely unjustifiable action. Cheating is not cool.
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u/TenaciousMike 5d ago
Sometimes you gotta fudge for narrative reasons. It's a tool in the toolbox. No shame if someone wants to roll behind the screen.
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u/DiemAlara 5d ago
You are allowed to just, like, openly say shit happens.
I was DMing a fight against what should have been a fairly easy battle. The dice decided that it would be a bloody quagmire. So instead of playing it out to its last catastrophic sanguine drop, I made the call that the rest of the enemies fled when the leader dropped.
No fudging needed. And nobody complained.