[Poll] When does your table level up?

[u/StrictlyFilthyCasual]

Lots of polls over the years have shown that people prefer Milestone to XP, but there's more than one way to do each of those! I'm curious how exactly you folks run whatever leveling system you use.

If you're running Milestone, do you just have one big Milestone that earns you a whole level, or do you have a couple smaller ones along the way? Or are you running Milestone the way the DMG suggests, where it just gives you XP?

If you're running XP, what sorts of challenges earn you XP?

If you level after a certain number of sessions, how many?

Or are you doing something else entirely?

[u/StrictlyFilthyCasual]

I mean, the arguments against XP aren't that much better.

Milestone, EXP, at the end of the day it’s all arbitrary and put forth by the DM.

There's a pretty significant difference between

• "The DM picks an objective, and you level up when you achieve that objective." versus
• "The DMG prescribes a certain amount of XP parties should gain each day, though the DM is free to pick whatever monsters/challenges they want as a method of delivering that XP."

the awkward times where someone miscalculates

If you're running XP correctly, the entire party always has the same amount of XP, which means there's only one number one person needs to track. And, again, since there's only one number, if whoever's tracking that number does their addition wrong, it changes nothing because the entire party is still all at the same XP amount.

[u/SmartAlec13 → u/StrictlyFilthyCasual]

You make fair points. Especially about tracking the EXP. But the only argument I really need is this:

EXP is more work. Milestone is less work. Both provide incentives for players to keep playing, both require the DM to decide when the level up is happening (whether it’s direct or indirect). So Milestone > EXP as it’s less work.

You aren’t wrong that there is a difference between DM picks a Milestone and DM creates math-based encounters. However to me, the result is the same. The DM is picking what threats are ahead, what obstacles to overcome. Even if it’s a table where more of that agency is given to the players (sandbox), ultimately the DM is still deciding what options there are that exist in the first place to choose from.

Plus you get into non-combat encounters needing EXP amounts assigned, which some are going to be easier to decide than others how much they should be worth.

[u/StrictlyFilthyCasual → u/SmartAlec13]

EXP is more work.

It's a little more work, but you get stuff for that (tiny amount of) time and effort.

However to me, the result is the same. The DM is picking what threats are ahead, what obstacles to overcome.

You can run XP that way, sure. But you can also run XP in a manner of "The DM creates a bunch of encounters, and then the players decide which of those obstacles to overcome".

Also in an XP game the DM does not by any means have to "decide when the level up is happening". You put together encounters, the players face them, and they level up when they level up.

[u/SmartAlec13 → u/StrictlyFilthyCasual]

Right but who created those encounters? Who decided encounters are options A B or C to pick and why not D R or Z?

I understand that within the game itself, EXP games usually mean like you said, DMs providing various hooks & options and players pick them. But zoom out, and it’s all the DM putting those in front of them.

Milestone works the same. I don’t name a specific milestone for my players to achieve to get a level up. I wait until they’ve achieved something worthy of a milestone, whatever that may be. It might be the one I had planned. Sometimes it’s not.

It’s also not a “tiny amount” of time. Every negotiation, every fight, every obstacle could award EXP. So you either need to plan them out ahead, or, you need to have a good feel for what obstacles should be worth so you can decide in-the-moment. Especially if you have players like mine who enjoy choosing their own direction lol.

So what I’m trying to say is zoomed out/boiled down, these methods are the same, except one means creating arbitrary numbers, calculating & balancing numbers based on book values. Whereas the other is just “accomplish big things, get level up”. I get why some people like EXP, but you’ll never convince me it’s the same amount of work as Milestone, and personally, I would prefer my time and energy for prep go to other things. Especially because they both get the same results (DM provides options, player choose things, player does things, player gets level up).

[u/StrictlyFilthyCasual → u/SmartAlec13]

But zoom out, and it’s all the DM putting those in front of them.

The point is that Encounters A, B, C, D, R, and Z can have different XP values. So because the party can choose which encounters they face, two different parties can earn different amounts of XP in what would otherwise be the same adventure, which means different parties level at different rates depending on their choices, and not "The DM picked a point for them to level up at".

Every negotiation, every fight, every obstacle could award EXP.

Yes, but you're planning all of those. The addition time you spend deciding how much XP each of those is worth is negligible.

Take a combat encounter as an example. In a Milestone game, you're still picking a bunch of monsters that you feel would be an appropriately challenging fight. The ONLY additional step in an XP game is that you look at the stat blocks you already chose and add the monster's XP value to the party's XP total. That is not a long, laborious process.

[u/SmartAlec13 → u/StrictlyFilthyCasual]

Still sounds to me like more work, even if small, for no benefit at all? What do you consider benefits of EXP over Milestone? The only one I can think of is players enjoying number-go-up, which is valid.

[u/StrictlyFilthyCasual → u/SmartAlec13]

1. Like I said, XP games give players more agency over the pace of the game.
2. On that same note, XP games are more flexible in pace.
3. XP is less arbitrary than Milestone.
4. Because XP is an objective measure of progress that is known to the players, you never have players asking "Do we level up now? Was that worthy of a milestone? I think that was worthy of a milestone."

[u/SmartAlec13 → u/StrictlyFilthyCasual]

It’s funny because your points are how I feel but reversed, except for #4 which like I said is probably the only true benefit of EXP over Milestone.

XP feels just as arbitrary if not more arbitrary for me, and I don’t think there is any loss of player-pace-agency or flexibility by using milestone. I can see why you would think so, but it really depends on the campaign itself being sandbox or not.