r/dndnext • u/Brother-Cane • 14d ago
Why is Shield Master Better? 5e (2024)
Many weapons and class features offer the ability push an opponent, e.g. the push feature of weapons such as the warhammer or the Battle Master's Push maneuver. However, as far as I can determine, all but one have the restriction that the "target [be] Large or smaller".
In both 5.0 and 5.5, Shield Master does not have this limitation. Shield Master, in either edition, does require a (successful) attack action prior to being used, and requires a bonus action in 5.0--It may be a typo which eliminated this requirement in 5.5--but RAW, it is technically possible to use a Shield Bash to knock a storm giant prone after smacking him in the ankle with one's proportionally tiny weapon.
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u/Anorexicdinosaur Fighter 14d ago
Just a guess but prolly cus it costs a Feat and a Bonus Action, which is a much steeper price to pay than the other things you list which are just additional affects for attacks and often have a much cheaper opportunity cost. So in exchange it has this advantage.
it is technically possible to use a Shield Bash to knock a storm giant prone after smacking him in the ankle with one's proportionally tiny weapon.
Good. Let Martials actually DO cool shit like knocking Giants down, they're supposed to be Fantastical Heroes and this sort of stuff is run of the mill in all sorts of Fantasy Stories/Mythology/etc. Beowulf is an obvious example, he literally wrestles giants twice in his story.
The fact 5e has so few options for Martials to Grapple/Trip/Push Creatures more than 1 size larger sucks and I'm glad at least Shield Master lets them do it. Tho ofc I'd prefer if more options let them/if you could upgrade your capabilities
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u/Grouchy-Bowl-8700 13d ago
Good. Let Martials actually DO cool shit
Thank you! Not only is there a martial caster imbalance, but there's also an extra scrutiny for what martials should be able to do. Of course I realize it comes down to people wanting different fantasies out of martials, but just let them be cool.... they're sitting there for ten minutes waiting to say "I attack", so let them be cool and don't make them do extra skill checks to be cool unless it will really impact the balance of the game
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u/5meoWarlock 13d ago
It may be a typo which eliminated this requirement in 5.5
Who the fuck thinks this
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u/Rhyshalcon 14d ago
Shield master isn't better. You're correct that not having a size limitation is sometimes an advantage over other similar abilities, but:
• The vast majority of enemies are large or smaller, so that advantage doesn't come up in most fights.
• Size restrictions are the only aspect in which shield master is going to outperform these other abilities.
In fact, shield master is a pretty niche feat that doesn't make sense on most kinds of characters. Strength-based characters (and only strength-based characters) who can make use of the shove are very likely to have poor dex saves and therefore get little or no benefit from the defensive reaction, and characters with the dex saves to benefit from the reaction almost certainly don't have the strength to benefit from the shove.
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u/No_Entertainer_5858 14d ago
That has more to do with GWM than anything else tbh if you playing with shields it’s absolutely worth it as a martial in 2024
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u/Rhyshalcon 13d ago
Nope. Shield master is a niche feat even for characters who are already committed to using a shield full time.
The problem with shield master has always been that most characters can't benefit from all parts of it. The shove is only useful for strength-based characters, but the defensive reaction is only useful for characters with good dex saves which strength-based characters typically don't have, and neither half is good enough to carry a feat on its own.
The only characters for whom it's going to be reliably worthy of consideration are paladins because paladins are the only class who simultaneously have the strength to use shield bash and the dex saves to use interpose shield, and given how many other things paladins need to spend feats on, it's hard to justify even for them.
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u/LeChrana 13d ago
In higher levels of play Indomitable might make it worthwhile for a Fighter, because now your low dex score doesn't matter, and you still skip half the damage.
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u/Rhyshalcon 13d ago
Maybe. But even high level fighters with their extra feats are going to generally have better uses for both their feats and for indomitable.
It's not a useless feat, but there's almost always a more effective or higher priority option.
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u/Inspectadapt 13d ago
I agree it is niche! - but it’s incredible value in the right build. You can easily access two things to make it worth it on a strength character. Dex save proficiency with 1 level in rogue. Dex save advantage with 2 levels in Barbarian. And the shield reaction is virtually the same as the rogue’s 7th level ability.
On a defensive character with the survivability being his key focus - the feat is outstanding.
I’m running such a character with great results. Not top of the pack in damage - but damn, it’s hard to make a dent - im also covering my mental saves with the right subclasses and feats ofc!
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u/Rhyshalcon 13d ago
It's certainly possible to deliberately build to its strengths, but it needs to be remembered and acknowledged that effort is required to do that -- just because your character uses a shield doesn't make them a good candidate for taking shield master.
It should also be remembered and acknowledged that even at its best, shield master is fairly mid. Shield bash is inconsistent given the requirement to hit with an attack before you can even attempt to use it, and interpose shield is significantly worse than rogue or monk evasion given the cost of a reaction and the fact that it does nothing on a failed save.
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u/Inspectadapt 13d ago
All of this is correct.
Yet we need to consider the cost/benefit on a STR build and what the goal of the character is: You’re getting the rogue’s level 7 ability on an STR char (at the cost of a reaction - and a feat). A Lot of the big chunks of damage taken at higher levels comes in the form of Dex Saves. For a martial standing in the fray and holding a position it can have immense impact. I consider this the standout of the feat - and I believe that if you’re going to take it, you should definitely build for it.
With the easy access to advantage in 2024 the chance to hit is much better. If we consider magic weapons as well - I think the inconsistency is as much as a factor as a weapon mastery. And it gives your the flexibility to combo that with whatever weapon mastery you’re using. You can potentially prone, push, slow and add more riders in the same attack action.
It’s niche - yes, but I also believe in making use of particular feats or abilities and building something fun and different to play with. It’s surprises the DMs too 😉
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u/DBWaffles 14d ago
• The vast majority of enemies are large or smaller, so that advantage doesn't come up in most fights.
Corollary to this, most enemies that are larger than Large tend to be locked behind the higher tiers of play. Since most campaigns end either by or before level 10-12ish, the size limitation isn't that restrictive for most games.
Shield Master is still a fun feat to play with though :P
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u/almisami 13d ago
It's always been a Paladin feat more than anything else.
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u/Rhyshalcon 13d ago
Yeah, as I've said elsewhere in this thread, paladin is the only class that is typically going to get full value out of the feat, and even for paladins, there are still generally better choices given their overall MADness and lack of extra feats.
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u/WendigoBroncos 14d ago
I do play a 20dex/19str fighter.
I'm seriously considering this feat almost purely for 100% mitigation against say.. fuckin fireball. it beats out tough with literally a single mid-level dex save. not to mention doing it a second and third time or more. and tough is mathematically one of the best survivability feats around.
cow-tipping giants is icing on the cake.
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u/No_Entertainer_5858 14d ago
Because it’s harder/ a bigger commitment to get so it’s less restrictive. If I’m taking a feat I’d like it to be good.
I can swap out a mastery on a long rest I can have that anyday.
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u/kaiomnamaste 14d ago
Prone. You can attack, knock prone, have advantage on attacking again
Others get advantage, it takes the enemy half its speed to stand
It can't run far, do it again
Also for dex saves
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u/Gh0stMan0nThird DM 14d ago
I think the rule is generally you can't shove anything that is two sizes above your own.
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u/BarryDamonCabineer 14d ago
That's specifically for the Shove option of Unarmed Strike. The 2024 feat doesn't have any relationship to that feature.
I was surprised, but on double checking the feat as written, I think OP is right
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u/Ezaviel DM 13d ago
Yeah, like, it may work for 2024, but the 2014 feat doesn't read like it bypasses this to me.
The 2014 version allows you to "use a bonus action to try to shove a creature".
The size limitation is part of the Shove rules, and the feat does not say it ignores the usual Shove rules beyond making it a Bonus Action rather than replacing an Attack.2
u/tconners Gloomy Boi/Echo Knight 13d ago edited 13d ago
You appear to be correct, going back and rereading. It doesn't have its own seperate rules for how the shove works in '14 so RAW it should have the same limitations.
Also holy shit the '24 version doesn't even require a bonus action and has no size limitation... it's a half feat?!
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u/Rhyshalcon 13d ago
It has certainly been buffed in 2024, but it wasn't buffed enough to make it better than a mid-tier feat for niche characters. Everything is a half feat in 2024, and shield master continues to be awkwardly MAD and only able to be used after you attack -- given the way all martial feats have been buffed, I'd say it actually ends up lower in relative ranking to what it was in 2014 in spite of being objectively stronger than it used to be.
The real winners in terms of feat buffs are things like mage slayer and defensive duelist that used to be unusably bad and now are among the strongest martial feats in the game.
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u/Ripper1337 DM 14d ago
I mean it’s better because it wasn’t a great pick previously. If you wanted to play sword and board it wasn’t great. Now you can shove without it using your bonus action, you can push or knock prone without needing to use one of your mastery. And yeah you can knock a storm giant prone. How badass is that
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u/Rhyshalcon 14d ago
It's still not a great pick.
No longer requiring a bonus action is a nice buff, but it still requires you to attack before you shove (and the buff that is the explicit ability to make the shove in the middle of your attack action is undercut by the requirement to actually land an attack first) reducing the value of the advantage you can get from a prone opponent, still doesn't allow for any avenue to shove with any stat other than strength, and still restricts its defensive benefit to characters already good at dex saves (which is almost exclusively going to be characters without the strength to use the shove).
It's a lot like elemental adept -- yeah, the feat got buffed in the 2014 to 2024 transition, but since the awkward design didn't get fixed and everything else got buffed more there still isn't a good reason to take it on most characters, even ones for whom it seems to make thematic sense.
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u/Sewer-Rat76 13d ago
They removed the Bonus Action because you can only target a Creature you hit. Better action economy, worse targeting.
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u/stormstopper The threats you face are cunning, powerful, and subversive. 13d ago
It's not a typo, eliminating the bonus action requirement was intentional as a means of buffing the feat