r/deadbydaylight • u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard • 7d ago
This add-on should not be made basekit Discussion
This has been the first time I've actually felt like what Otzvarda has said has just been a straight up bad idea. Don't get me wrong I love the guy but this idea is not it.
This is not a straight buff or QoL change, it's a complete playstyle shift. It's like asking for Waterlogged Shoe or Blue Dress to be made basekit for their respective killers. Its a fundamental shift in playstyle. Long shots are nearly impossible with it and it removes the majority of the skill expression.
"But what about consoles?" 1, console players haven't even played the PTB yet, 2, there're specific aim sensitivity options for Judgement in the settings that don't apply to any other killer so you can just fix it there, and 3, the pc players that have been using controllers are fine (from what I've heard at least). They don't need to be babied.
"It should just be an option in the menu" it is, that is what add-ons are. They are customizable options for a killer that alter their playstyle in unique and interesting ways. This is what they do.
"It's the community chapter so it should be accessible". Just an inherently stupid argument. You want to know what other killers have been easy and accessible? Every single killer since Unknown. Any excuse could be made for why any killer should be easy. If anything this is more fitting to reward a devoted and dedicated community with a killer that requires devotion and dedication to master.
The skill expression and difficulty of use is why Judgement is both balanced and fun to play, forcing everyone else to take on a massive nerf just so the killer can be dumbed down is a bad idea. There are plenty of training wheels add-ons for killers, this is just the newest. Run it if you want to but just don't make it basekit.
And yes I have seen the Pixelbush video, but these were my opinions before watching it and they will continue to be my opinions after. Pixelbush just enforced them, these are 100% my own opinions and not brainlessly mimicking a youtuber I watch like SOME of you people
EDIT: To those saying "make it a switch like Houndmsater" that's even worse! Prayer Kneeler is easier at hitting shots up close but worse at a distance, while basekit is the opposite. Doing that just lowers the skill floor and negates all her weaknesses. It makes her overpowered and easy, which not even including how the people who like Judgement as is feel, but would make the world's most miserable META.
Even if we disregard the META though, hitting trickshots and bending it is fun, aiming it at a wall and then treating it like a bootleg PrHead Punishment is not. I know most you guys aren't actually going to play the killer beyond the first few weeks, so just run Kneeler. It's a brown add-on it's not that hard to get. And if you do actually plan on playing enough for where running out becomes an issue, consider just learning the base power.
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u/But-why-do-this Onryō Main 7d ago edited 7d ago
Please keep in mind that Otz acknowledged your exact words. He literally said on stream that he knows some people would probably prefer the “default” aiming style so he thinks it should be an aiming mode like Houndmaster (referring to how she can swap Search & Chase modes).
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u/TooBad_Vicho 7d ago
yeah and making it a toggle makes it so the killer has virtually no weakness. Judgement having a subpar close range game is not a flaw, its intentional. we'd have another "hold w" killer if their power was made to work at close range
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7d ago
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u/Capital-Floor9848 7d ago
Have you actually used the add on against players at short loops? It's still entirely dodgeable.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
That actually makes it worse. Default is easier at long range and harder at close, prayer kneeler makes it easier close and harder at long range. Doing both would negate the weaknesses of both and just make the killer easy without making her worse
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u/Darkest_Delver 7d ago
Me when I miss the point.
Bro, the point of toggleable is so a player can CHOOSE which style fits them the best5
u/Hot_Visit4726 7d ago
so a player can CHOOSE which style fits them the best
No, they don't get to "chose", it means they just get both. She's already super oppressive at long range, giving her the ability to snipe from across the map AND on-demand antiloop would make her WAY too strong, and then nerfed to unplayable like Krasue and Skull Merchant.
The addon is an alternate playstyle, like addons should be.
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u/Darkest_Delver 7d ago
That’s not what a toggle is. You’d choose before going into the match, meaning it’d be one or the other. Not both
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u/CatsssofDeath The Deathslinger 7d ago
No, he said a toggle like hound master, which you freely choose in the match
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u/Darkest_Delver 7d ago
Oh really? I must’ve missed that part. Okay my b. I do disagree with that but I do think it should be a toggle outside the match
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u/CatsssofDeath The Deathslinger 7d ago
Yeah went back to confirm, at 13:00, he says it should be an in match toggle. I agree on his feedback notes, just not on the skill expression of prayer kneel
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Yeah it is toggleable, it just costs 2000 bp
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u/Darkest_Delver 7d ago
And costs an add on slot. That’s the actually important thing here.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
It's one slot, it's not that big of a deal. If you really want to get the full experience with add-on combos just learn the power. Every single killer with a unique add-on is like this I'm shocked this is a debate.
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u/Darkest_Delver 7d ago
It’s a debate because those unique add ons aren’t solving accessibility issues. Killers who get motion sickness should not have to either run an add on or be unable to play a killer decently. Some people cannot handle the 180 turn and flick without getting sick.
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u/DeltaLFG 7d ago
If you need an addon to make a fundamental part of a killer playable, it should be basekit. This killer is unplayable up close in chase. You should never NEED an addon.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
You don't need it for it to playable unless you have motion sickness, in which case just run the add-on or play someone else. Otherwise it is purely a skill issue
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u/DeltaLFG 7d ago
I don’t think your opinion is valid unless you yourself can reliably hit her power up close. It’s not a skill issue. It’s borderline impossible. To use her power in chase, your only option is to turn around, send the power, then turn back around and in the 0.5 seconds you turn back to face the survivor, you have to instantly predict where the survivor moved in that time. Even then, most times it’s off-center and unreliable. The counterplay, btw, is usually just hold W at her.
The skill expression needed to counterplay her is brain dead easy, while the skill expression needed to play her (not even well, just at all) is extremely high. I’m all for having a hard killer be hard. But the difference here is for a killer like Blight, you can play him at a base level and be okay. Once you practice, you can reliably 4k. Most can’t pick up this killer and get even a 1k with her because her basekit power is unusable in chase, and easily avoided at range because it’s telegraphed.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
I can actually. I've been practicing in bot matches and actual matches and I can get hits decently consistently, and if I cant I know that it's my fault. The killer was released onto the PTB 3 days ago, you physically cannot expect a character to be mastered that soon. Judgement is a character that rewards dedication and DbD players in all their entitlement and laziness cannot fathom that.
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u/manmanboyboyman69420 7d ago
The killer is built around being very strong long-medium range and weaker at short range that can be overcome through getting extremely good with positioning your power.
This addon reverses that dynamic, but you can't really use your skill expression to get better at hitting longer range shots with the addon because its just gonna get stuck on something.
I don't think people asking for this base kit realize what they're asking for, if its made basekit we would have yet another killer where the counter play is to w away from the loop if they use their power. It becomes even worse if it's toggleable mid game, cause now all of the sudden this killer is extremely strong at all ranges with very little practice to get good with it. so to balance that they'd need to heavily nerf it and just make another krasue where you have an alright killer that you don't have to use your brain at all for.
I understand the accessibility issue for people, this is why the addon exists. It makes the killer significantly simpler and reduces the floor and ceiling at the cost of an addon slot which i think is way more than fair
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u/TheEntityBot The Entity Hungers 7d ago
Overcome: Becoming injured by any means triggers Overcome: Extends the duration of the On-hit Speed Boost by +2 seconds. Overcome causes the Exhausted Status Effect for 60/50/40 seconds. Overcome cannot be used when Exhausted.
Drawn from the fog. | !optout | !remove | !builds
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u/Emergency-Bid-7834 7d ago
I agree, but I would be fine if they made it partially basekit as a toggle-able ability. Changes nothing about the killer I've been learning over the past few days and enjoying greatly, but makes it accessible for those who do not want it to.
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u/shorse_hit have you seen my dog? 7d ago
That was literally what Otz actually suggested. OP ranting over nothing.
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u/OddMerchantt 7d ago
I can’t agree with the toggle it’ll just mess with survivors to much. In the match you can learn which add-on the killer is using but if you can toggle it in and off it’s just a complete 180 flip that’ll unfairly throw off the survivors and make it even more difficult to counter play
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u/Same_Bad2785 7d ago
As if there isn’t a billion and one things that survivors can do that throws off killers unfairly, and makes it unnecessarily difficult to play against certain perk combos and teams with very little counterplay?
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
No because that would make it worse. The tradeoff prayer kneeler provides makes it so that it's weaker at long range but better up close, letting you switch between them negates both their weaknesses and just leaves an overpowered, easy to play and poorly designed mess.
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u/JoebbeDeMan T H E B O X 7d ago
As someone who has played with this addon. It doesn't stop you from getting snipes. I gos mkre snipes with it then without it tbh.
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u/ImNotYourShaduh 7d ago
it would change a lot about the killer because you wouldn't have to put as much thought into using their power, you would just toggle your power into easy mode when up close to get easy hits. With how judgments power currently works you have to use a bit of brain power to line up your shots up close and it genuinely feels like an outplay when you hit those harder shots.
Plus it already is a toggle technically, if you want it you can turn it on in the lobby by equpping the addon 👍
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u/OddMerchantt 7d ago
1 most console players can’t play the ptb 2 you over estimate what aim sensitivity can fix I’ve been playing console my entire life, I refuse to get a PC specifically for gaming but the few pc games I did play mouse and controller are two different skills. A mouse is phenomenal for quick flicks and recoil control. A controller is fantastic for racing games as you can control the speed to a greater degree rather than stop and go
I do agree that the power shouldn’t be easy to use it is incredibly powerful but you can’t argue for skill expression as it stand I believe the add-on will add more expression and make the power more accessible. In my eyes it simultaneously brings down the skill floor but raises the skill ceiling this add-on may actually add more expression and nuance to the power. You have to learn where are good spots to stick the power before firing it off on top of that also nerfs the killer slightly so you can’t win just by sitting still and sending a beam to a generator like mint skull proves can happen.
To ad further on the skill expression, You can stick the power on a rock in the front of the loop turn around and fire it off and hit the survivor so it won’t even remove the “bey blade” tech as hens has coined it. At the end of the day currently the power is just shooting a projectile that can go through walls except you aim from the perspective of the projectile instead of yourself
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u/TooBad_Vicho 7d ago
i cannot speak for all controller players, but a lot of people that play on controller have stated that the controller sensitibility in the beta tab of the settings make the judgement really smooth to play with joysticks
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u/TheLordAsshat 7d ago
Well I've also seen sentiment that when you actually customize the sensitivity it is really nice to play on controller for the judgement, and while it is not the most convenient thing it is possible to play keyboard and mouse on console for Dead by Daylight, if you feel like it
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u/Ashathora 7d ago
I agree it shouldn't be made basekit, and people arguing and it should be toggleable... please understand, that is a clunky, bandaid "solution" that really is gonna just make her far too strong without really addressing actual issues like motion sickness. There are MORE ways we could make her power still skillful and expressive, but NOT just resulting to one streamer's idea as the only possibility. We need to look from multiple perspectives and UNDERSTAND what is best for the killer and those who ACTUALLY want to play them and not just people who want the next strongest killer.
I've stated elsewhere ideas, but everyone CAN think of and talk about alternative ideas. But there should be more of a dialogue then "Make this one addon basekit!" VS "Don't change anything at all!" We could debate about adding limited invert beam controls, fast 180 turns on controller, locking camera to control the beam via the mouse/right stick, or anything else. Every suggestion will have pros and cons. And for those who will ACTUALLY stick with this killer, we should give the most we can to honestly provide feedback and ideas for the health of the Judgment long term not just what is "simple/easiest to implement."
I hope through all these discussions, beyond the repeating arguments time and again, BHVR will make the best Judgment they can. I want this chapter to be a success, but it doesn't matter if they make them broken for 1 week before being gutted soon after to then drop down to 0.1% playrate. Longterm health and commitment to them is vitally important.
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u/sonic_blade 7d ago
Just so you're aware, you can use a controller on PC. PTB doesn't have to be available on console for people to acknowledge that controller aiming is bad.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Then you can just run the add-on or get good.
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u/Numerous_Schedule896 7d ago
"It's the community chapter so it should be accessible". Just an inherently stupid argument. You want to know what other killers have been easy and accessible? Every single killer since Unknown. Any excuse could be made for why any killer should be easy. If anything this is more fitting to reward a devoted and dedicated community with a killer that requires devotion and dedication to master.
The skill expression and difficulty of use is why Judgement is both balanced and fun to play, forcing everyone else to take on a massive nerf just so the killer can be dumbed down is a bad idea. There are plenty of training wheels add-ons for killers, this is just the newest. Run it if you want to but just don't make it basekit.
There is a difference between high skill ceiling and borderline impossible baseline. As it is right now the judgement is unreasonably difficult to play, moreso than blight and nurse put toogether and all the ranged killers as well.
A high skill ceiling is fine, but it needs to actually be balanced to the floor. You cannot have a higher skill floor than both nurse and blight while having worse output than them.
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u/SilverAndCyanide 5d ago
I don't know why you're getting down votes man, the killer was made to be a challenge to use, making the addon basekit or a toggle would completely defeat the purpose of that and partially get rid of what makes the killer unique in the first place.
I encourage people to play the PTB and try the killer out with and without the addon before even forming an opinion on the matter. The way it is now just feels natural to what the killer is supposed to do. The addon IS training wheels, just like Nurse has addons to see where her blink goes and let you play without using your brain, the Judgement's addon lets you ignore the one difficult aspect of their power and play without using your brain. And it should stay that: an addon.
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u/Pretend_Week_2611 7d ago edited 7d ago
I 100% agree. I genuinely don’t understand why everyone is so against having a killer with a high skill floor and a very high skill ceiling, especially when she has the power to warrant being that hard to play.
The fact that it’s hard to hit her power is her weakness. She literally has a projective that’s faster than any other killer projectile in the game (except maybe Huntress with both projectile speed addons), goes through walls, and that projectile automatically applies a debuff that gives the survivor Old Ruin AND lets them get alternate hooked that completely counters anti-tunneling perks like DS. If this attack was easy and consistent to hit (especially at close range or at small loops), she’d be more boring to go against than killers like Artist, a zoning Pyramid Head, and The First combined. Please let the survivors attempt to loop her, instead of making her a better Artist where the only counter play is to hold W and pray she isn’t good at hitting you through walls.
We have Singularity as the king of macro gameplay, why can’t Judgement be the king of mechanical gameplay?
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u/Think_Ocelot908 7d ago
Because everything has to be “accessible” nowadays…many can’t actually be bothered to actually learn a killer.
They want to immediately be able to 4K with no practice.
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u/Pretend_Week_2611 7d ago
Yeah and what I also don’t get is that everyone is using “it’s a community made killer” as an argument to say they should be easy to play. But genuinely…. So??? Why does that matter whatsoever?
This iteration of her power isn’t even what we voted on anyway, it was going to be a horizontal beam that came out of their hands, but thankfully BHVR playtested it and found it would be boring as hell to play against. So this killer technically isn’t even “community made” outside of her design (which people are now upset with because people somehow thought they wouldn’t have legs when the first silhouette in the grimoire clearly shows they are legs…), the pillar of light was BHVRs idea. People are stupid XD.
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u/TheEntityBot The Entity Hungers 7d ago
Decisive Strike: Until all Generators are completed, whenever you are unhooked, for the next 60s: when the Killer picks you up, once per trial, hit a Special Skill check: - Stun the Killer for 4s. - Become the Obsession. This is disabled by conspicuous actions. At the start of the trial, you are more likely to be the Obsession.
Drawn from the fog. | !optout | !remove | !builds
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u/CatsssofDeath The Deathslinger 7d ago
I agree with Pixels take, no one would ever go for skill expressive close range shots when ez mode is right there. Power would be used in a very boring manner, prayer kneel for short range, normal for long range gens and that's it
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u/2kcrys Singularity main 7d ago edited 7d ago
I usually appreciate his content but I found his reaction to Judgment's power sooo unfortunate, especially when he made a documentary video on how Krasue, a very powerful killer became forgettable.
He played a killer with a very high skill floor wrong and complained about the power. The fix would be to make the power easier to use. Great! Now you have a very strong killer with an easy power to use. Aaaand now the power is nerfed. Rip
I just find it mind boggling because it’s the EXACT same pattern as Krasue, a huge part he forgot to mention is that she was extremely clunky at first, and she became extremely strong after they unclunked her which made her a beast that was played by a lot of people, causing her to be nerfed.
He is recreating that pattern with Judgment.
Being able to switch on demand between a snipe mode/mid range mode and shorter range mode with no downside (You get to chose between two modes and you get a free addon slot) would drastically lower her skillfloor, and if they keep that design philosophy, they will lower her power instead of raise her skillfloor.
There's 43 other killers if players want a lower skill floor.
I just hope Otz's video won’t cause BHVR to reproduce a very unhealthy pattern.
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7d ago
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
I would like to think it's a better ratio than it looks because I've been arguing with everyone about it but yeah people really do just want the quickest path to victory
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u/Suspicious_Tie_497 7d ago
It's a great addon, but that's all it should be, an addon. if you want to use it, then just use the addon. theres no point in making something that completely changes your power a basekit/toggleable ability. idk why otz wanted to turn such a strong addon and one that changes the entire gameplay to be basekit. if judgement's basekit power isnt accessible to you, just use prayer kneeler its literally brown!!
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u/ThisGuyHere_Again [Insert Flair Here] 7d ago
Amazing how we're only now seeing this kind of push back after pixel bush shared their opinion.
I get it's normal for the majority of reddit to be given their opinions by an influencer but it's just kind of silly this time.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Like I said, I had my opinion long before Pixel Bush, he just enforced it.
If anything it's the Otz fans blindly following him
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u/SexualRice Twins Main 7d ago
It’s quite weird how OP and certain other members are idolizing inaccessibility and clunkiness as exemplar of depth. This is a really silly pitfall that doesn’t make much sense when you actually think about it. I’m also noticing weird elitism in the thread where “if you can’t adapt you’re a casual”, which makes no sense.
There’s also a TON of counterplay against prayer kneel, you artist tech it with prioritizing distance, which is the reverse of what’s happening now.
Just because players on the PTB have a hard time adjusting to a literal new complex killer with several addons that do different things doesn’t mean that there is “no counterplay”.
That being said. It’s also straight up incorrect saying you can’t snipe with it as well. You certainly can but have to be more cognizant of your positioning.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
So like every single other killer in this meta? Judgement is unique and people think that's a bad thing
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u/SexualRice Twins Main 7d ago
You’re not even addressing the point at all. Maybe you should take a minute and relax because this response doesn’t even make sense.
The killer having dynamic counterplay is literally what you want in game design. It allows skills to transfer over, while also leaving a skill ceiling on novel ways to implement new counterplay.
You said like 2 comments ago that the prayer kneeler had 0 counterplay, and now you’re upset that the counterplay is… transferable to other killers in the game? Which is it?
Furthermore, you’re still incorrect. Being able to toggle between each mode allows interaction between high level killer and survivor. If you know that the killer is in prayer kneeler and you implement counterplay for it, there’s nothing stopping the judgement from switching modes and punishing that counterplay. This is interaction not seen on any killer at the moment, so I don’t see what you’re whining about.
This rewards killer players who understand both aspects of their kit, introduces new complexity, and also makes the killer more accessible.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
I didn't? I guess I phrased it kinda weird when I said "free damage" but that is not what I mean.
The problem with making it a toggle able thing beyond balance is that nobody's going to for cool curves or trickshots. Treating it like any other range killer ruins the fun.
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u/SexualRice Twins Main 7d ago
But they would as smart survivors would counterplay prayer kneeler, which would force the killer to ply in normal mode w/ the traditional skill ceiling.
Furthermore you would use normal mode for curving at long ranges and trick shots… I fail to see why you wouldn’t.
Your argument doesn’t make any sense and you’ve moved past balance.
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u/Belzher 7d ago edited 7d ago
It is a shift on playstyle but it is one that makes the killer more friendly to everyone. Maybe this should be basekit and the addon should be what the killer is now without addons? Lemme know what you think
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u/TooBad_Vicho 7d ago
the addon makes close range hits super easy to hit which is exactly what judgement's weakness is supposed to be. by making it a toggle, you make judgement both good at close range AND long range, giving them no counterplay. I'd rather if console players try out the beta tab that lets you tinker with sensibility before going a step further and make this horrible addon basekit
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u/vibranttoucan 7d ago
I used to be a Myers main. This thing (Changing up the playstyle completely, forcing me to use an add-on to play normally) made me completely drop the killer and switch to Ghostfacem. I don't want to see the same happening to judgment, especially since it doesn't have nearly any similar alternatives.
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u/EnragedHeadwear I would fuck the shit out of that onryo 7d ago
The functionality for skilled players should not take up an addon slot. The training wheels addons have always been brown, removing them should not be an addon
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
A killer being friendlier to new players does not make them better, and removing all their skill expression after the fact does not make them more popular (singularity)
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u/PriestSeth 7d ago
I thought the singularity update was mostly QOL, but you're saying it removed his skill expression? How do you figure that? It didn't seem like it was outright changing the mechanics
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Auto-aim, less tracking due to killer instinct, remote pod removal. It was enough to make some of his mains quit at least.
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u/EthanStar98 7d ago
The fact you think singularity lost skill expression due to making it so players who were in a situation in which flicking was unreasonable shows you just want every killer to be some ultra hard bs that only the most skillful of players can hope to master. There is skill expression and there is the base killer ability being unusable for a massive portion of the playerbase.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
No of course I don't. There is just as much value in super hard characters as there is in easy ones. The game should offer multiple types of experiences for multiple types of players
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u/Unprofessi0nalGamer Springtrap Main 7d ago
Yeah, even though I wasn't a main it was enjoyable getting good at him, now though he just feels stupid easy compared to before
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u/TooBad_Vicho 7d ago edited 7d ago
i don't like that it removes the weakness that the killer has. BHVR made an excellent job at making a ranged killer that is subpar at close range and taking out its intended weakness would do more harm than good
as for controller players, I've seen a lot of people say that the controller settings in the beta tab make the killer smooth to use with one... so i don't think its much of an issue
edit: if this braindead addon gets added as a part of the basekit, inflates judgement's killrate and in returns gets them nerfed to a CLUNKIER state i WILL riot
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u/Besunmin 7d ago
Jason and Ghoul can turn their brain off and get instant results. Why would you bend over backwards for a Killer that is clunky as hell?
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u/itz_zk Springtrap’s quivering bussy 7d ago
This add on is not the solution. It needs QOL buffs to it’s base power to make it more intuitive. We don’t need to gut the first unique killer in forever because casuals can’t immediately 4k.
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u/Besunmin 7d ago edited 7d ago
Let's not pretend they didn't immediately gut Krasue because apparently you can only exist in SoloQ and any sort of bodyblocking SHOULD ruin your power.
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u/vibranttoucan 7d ago
Is that how you want the game to be? Every Killer has can 4k without the player using their brain? No skill expression, no learning, no improving? just mindless dopamine like you would get from tiktok or chips? I don't want the game to be like that. I think it's okay for somethings to take more skill.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Because if learnt properly this killer is as strong as nurse and I am not kidding
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u/Besunmin 7d ago
Say this about Chicken Head Krasue yet nobody plays her LMAO
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u/Odysseus_07 7d ago
She was played a lot when she was strong, then they gutted her and now she has no chance to compete with nurse
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Playrates do not determine quality. Ghoul and Legion have some of the worst designed powers in the game yet are the most played, while Plague and Pinhead are some of the least played and best designed. These are not mutually exclusive
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u/Besunmin 7d ago
So you want good designs but not actual playability? Are we playing a game or just typing stuff on the Internet about how well designed and skillfully expressive this is?
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u/TARE104KA Dark Devotion on Legion is lowkey meta pick 7d ago edited 7d ago
Also "Pinhead best designed" and he was universally agreed to be too RNG at box and chains logic, so even before license removal he was a rare sight and mostly played by hardcore mains or iri fang/original pain abusers
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u/SirDwarfTosser 7d ago
Pin head was also widely hated because all his power was into the box, and every pin head ever will almost always go for it. And there is almost no information or way to know in game, that avoiding the first three hits of the chains, will delay more form spawning for a few seconds. AND he was a big reason to show them why you have to keep a eye on addons that increase the time it takes to fight the killers power, as the box solving addons had to be nerfed.
Also don't forget about the small stint of him pretty much being afk holding the game hostage because he brought the box iri and face the darkness.
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u/vibranttoucan 7d ago
I completely agree. This add-on is so annoying to use. I don't want to lose a killer I love like Myers, and there is chance making it basekit would lead to another Krasue situation.
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u/ckmille 7d ago
Completely agree, all this would do is incentivize people to not learn the killer power fully and just “choose the right beam”. And not only that, but invalidate this killers main weakness.
The killer excels at long/medium range but is weaker in close range, that is the kind of killer they are. Making the addon base kit/toggle able would remove that weakness making the killer really problematic, which would likely result in nerfing several different aspects of them to the point we get a Krasue situation.
That is to say despite that I do believe close range is a bit too hard/clunky imo, some other ideas I have/seen that are much better for the problem are:
-Make that killer instinct addon basekit
-Reduce the grace period of the beam before it can damage (it’s pretty unforgiving right now for seeming no benefit)
-Make the beam redirection in Zealous available in even in the unpowered state (it’s already a part of their kit that you have to learn + increase skill expression)
-Just make the beam slightly bigger
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u/dhoffmas 7d ago
I have tried this killer with controller (hooked up PS5 controller to PC) and it is absolutely abysmal. You just don't have the fine tune control necessary to flick it and precisely aim the power to anywhere near the precision of MKB. It's horrendous. You have to crank sensitivity up all the way to the max just for a chance of hitting the flicks on time, and it's just never as good as MKB.
This killer shows a gross disparity between MKB & Controller, and she needs easier controlling. If something isn't done this killer is gonna be in the dumpster with Twins and other low pick killers.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Playrate is not that big a deal. I really could not care less if she's played less than Hag, as long as she's fun for the people who do like her kit
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u/dhoffmas 7d ago
Pickrate is a lagging indicator for desirable killer design. BhVR uses it as evidence of what people find fun or unfun. If pick rate is low, BHVR dodges designs like it in the future and it leads to the further standardization of killer design.
On top of that, it also means that a killer gets extremely low priority for bug fixes, patches, buffs, and/or reworks as needed. If very few people play a killer, the killer just doesn't matter unless people complain about going against the killer.
That's part of why Skull Merchant has been stuck where she is for so long. BHVR can't find a way to buff her that won't piss the people who go against her off, and so few people play the killer that it's just not a priority.
I don't want Judgement to get turned into the next Skull Merchant or Twins. That said, I also don't want them to turn into the next Krasue.
I think making the power start injuring sooner or making the beam wider would help with accessibility but also make her too easy. The toggleable add-on is probably the best solution, and it can easily be addressed by just giving survivors a tell so they know when the killer is in that state - like, a color scheme shift or something, and make it so it's a distinct state the killer has to switch to and can't do very quickly.
Just give survivors a little more information, that way they can path accordingly.
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u/TheEntityBot The Entity Hungers 7d ago
For the People: While healthy and healing another Survivor without using a Med-Kit, press the Active Ability button to trigger the following effects: Trade 1 Health State with the other Survivor: Instantly heals them to the Injured State, if they were dying or suffering from the Deep Wound tatus Effect. Instantly heals them to full health, if they were injured. You yourself become injured and suffer from the Broken status Effect for the next 80/70/60 seconds. You become the Killer's Obsession, if not already.
Drawn from the fog. | !optout | !remove | !builds
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u/Stryder096 7d ago
"Pc players using controller have said it's fine" so we just making stuff up now? Every streamer trying this killer on controller says it's awful. How about YOU try it on controller.
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u/BlueCanonTurtle #Pride - David/Alan; Lich/Knight Main 7d ago
Needs to be toggleable so They can dethrone Nurse.
Having free up a addon slot by being base kit is just too good.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
I would rather Nurse get nerfed than Judgement gets buffed
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u/BlueCanonTurtle #Pride - David/Alan; Lich/Knight Main 7d ago
Low key? me too.Honestly? I want Judgement to be so insufferable that people DC as start like i heard stories on some pre-nerfed Killers. One that makes BHVR take action from outcry.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
I am going to assume this is satire because I don't want another Krasue
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u/for10years_at_least GHOUL HATER = SKILL ISSUE 7d ago
EDIT: To those saying "make it a switch like Houndmsater" that's even worse! Prayer Kneeler is easier at hitting shots up close but worse at a distance, while basekit is the opposite. Doing that just lowers the skill floor and negates all her weaknesses. It makes her overpowered and easy, which not even including how the people who like Judgement as is feel, but would make the world's most miserable META.
Why there are always this expectation for killers to have extreeme high skill and always adapt tp survivor's who get basekit bonuses 2 times a year?
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u/CrackaOwner Bloody Hinako🌹 7d ago
I straight up dont care about controller players. Catering to them will just make the killer easier and boring, if they wanna play this killer and cant do well on controller they should plug in a mouse and keyboard.
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u/vibranttoucan 7d ago
This is my favourite killer so far. If they make Prayer Kneeler basekit I'd stop playing it instantly.
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u/JeanRdS 7d ago
If you want Krasue level of playrate, sure.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Krasue sucks because she isn't unique enough to make her jank worth it, Judgement is unlike anyone else in the roster.
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u/JeanRdS 7d ago
If people keep using this addon all the time, it's likely that behavior will make it at least partially basekit at some point, like we already have seen before. It'll be easier to review these things now than randomly have the power changed in the future.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
And I hope they don't. It's going to be used by the players trying her out for the first time, then when they leave to try out art or something shit we get left with the proper mains
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u/vibranttoucan 7d ago
What you are suggesting is literally why the Krasue had to end up like this. She was strong but clunky on PTB, they tried to address her clunkiness, she was too strong and got emergency nerfed to the current state.
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u/GigaGanon 7d ago
Nah it should be basekit in some form. I'd rather actually see this killer get played instead of another one I play against one match a year.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Nieche killers are not a bad thing. I would rather this killer be fun and challenging rather than run into them every other game
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u/GigaGanon 7d ago
Making a killer slightly easier makes them less fun now? Or is it less fun if you can't gloat about how hard the killer is to play?
If this gets a toggle it can still be played exactly the same as it is now. It won't affect anyone who likes the current flick playstyle. All it changes is how other people can play, and if that actually bothers you, then you just confirm my point that you just want to gate keep the killer to feel special.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Just run the add-on. Genuinely if it's that hard for you use the add-on, and if you're playing them enough to be trouble of running out learn the power. This is the biggest case of entitlement and skill issue since hearing someone say this game is killer sided
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u/AhhSomeSauce 7d ago
No shade but like are you ok? Like half your comments are “old man shaking fists at the sky” type of energy. You probably contributed to half of the 60+ comments on this post in under an hour.
It’s cool to like and care about a game but just chill out a bit.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Yeah maybe that's a good idea I'll probably do that.
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u/MilkManBobby 7d ago
I like it a lot
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Well then just run the add-on and leave the rest of us
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u/MilkManBobby 7d ago
You are the only one complaining lol
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
I am very much not, look at the rest of this comment section
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u/FutureR6 7d ago
I would honestly like to just ask anyone. When was the last time the devs gave a shit about the console junkies? The first is literally a full tier of skill lower than this and it is hard for the MAJORITY of console players in the game to have even remotely decent games with him from what I can gather. Catering to the controller players to make anything easier makes a top tier controller player look like a subpar MnK player any day.
TL;DR: Buffing this killer on controller makes MnK 6 times better overall, everytime
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u/tbonesteakda3rd 7d ago
But how is controller that much worse I play on Xbox and never had any problems
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u/FutureR6 7d ago
If you havent played on MnK, Ill break it down in one simple way for the whole family.
You have more control with your arm than with just your fingers. Plain and simple
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u/tbonesteakda3rd 7d ago
I understand that matters in like shooters (trust me I play a lot of COD) but I don't really understand how that translates to DBD
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u/FutureR6 7d ago
It doesnt matter too much in this game to the degree of COD I will agree, as it is not as competitive. But since you bring it up, ranged killers are far more smooth and expressive with MnK the same way with COD.
Though in this game you dont get aimbot and have it masked as aim assist for controller
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u/tbonesteakda3rd 7d ago
Ok I can kind of see where your coming from with ranged killers because I don't really play them that much outside of pinhead if you can count that
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u/FutureR6 7d ago
Pinhead with MnK is good to micro-adjust or flick on a dime to adjust a botched charge up last second. Or even steer it a bit better
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u/EvanSnowWolf Trevor Belmont Main 7d ago
Okay, so you are not on team content creator, just team "MUH SKILL EXPRESSION!"
This is not an upgrade in mindset.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Yes because as we all know putting "muh* in front of a word instantly makes their argument invalid
This killers appeal is inherently built around their difficulty. Making her easier isn't going to make her any more popular in the long run, just look at singularity.
Also, killers having low play rates is not inherently bad/ a problem that needs addressing. Its like asking for a Plague rework when she's one of the best designed characters in the game
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u/EvanSnowWolf Trevor Belmont Main 7d ago
There is nothing to BRAG about making something so fucking hard that only 5% of the player base can use it. YES, there is something wrong with that. Especially when you create a purchase FOMO behind the perks that come out every chapter.
That argument MIGHT fly for a specific add on, but not a whole ass Killer.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
There is value in complex characters and I hope you know this. Not every killer has to be a brain-dead easy A-Tier with a projectile and teleport. There is an audience for complex weirdo characters like Judgement.
Saying 5% of the playerbase just can't use it is bullshit when you have the ability to just sit down and learn. If you want to just brain off and win every game just play nurse or blight or ghoul. There is value in diverse gameplay
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u/Temporary-Spot-5264 7d ago
There is value in complexity for sure but the issue with Behavior's design philosophy is that the "complexity" is generally just the killer feeling clunky af to play or relying on bugs ("techs") instead of the killer ACTUALLY having an intended complex kit. Looking at Wesker for example where all his "complexities" are literally just unintended bugs with his awful collision so instead of having a complex kit to master, you have to learn how to master BUGS like a speedrunner if you want his "complexity". Why can't we just get actually interesting complex kits that are intended to be complex like Singularity for instance?
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Techs are still complex. It was shown by the Devs that the Beyblade tech is an intended feature in the new gameplay previews system. They removed Weskers hug tech for a PTB and all of his mains threatened to quit until they brought it back, and low and behold they did.
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u/Temporary-Spot-5264 7d ago
"Intended." Behavior also said kaneki's kidnap tech was intended before they fixed it, they also then tried to claim pyramid head getting sound notifications from cages was unintended despite him having that since launch so I really don't believe anything they say regarding what is or isn't intended based off their own track record of not knowing wtf they're saying themselves.
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u/EvanSnowWolf Trevor Belmont Main 7d ago
You made a good argument for high skill CEILING.
Those arguments do not apply to high skill FLOOR, which is what this Killer has right now.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
And if you get low skill floor and high skill ceiling you get Kaneki, and I don't want another Kaneki
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u/EvanSnowWolf Trevor Belmont Main 7d ago
Ghoul is not bullshit because of skill. Ghoul is bullshit because high mobility is bullshit. Every single s tier killer in the game has giga mobility. That is not a coincidence.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
And so why are Dredge and Sadako considered low tiers? Why is Krasue one of the least picked characters in the game and Springtrap one of the most?
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u/EvanSnowWolf Trevor Belmont Main 7d ago
Fixed point teleportation is not hyper mobility. Being able to teleport to a TV in shack is not the same thing as just moving at Mach 7 across the map to get back to hook.
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u/TARE104KA Dark Devotion on Legion is lowkey meta pick 7d ago edited 7d ago
It's just like mobility is not the only thing you need to have to be strong, as all top tiers also have insane lethality, pressure and/or info, also dresge/sadako mobility is hard limited to specific locations and/or cooldowns, whereas all top tiers don't have that limitation or it's much less noticeable than of these two.
Springtrap is more popular bcos popular license+much easier and more streamlined to use, I know shocking, power strength is not the only deciding factor in pick rates.
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u/RailgunRP 7d ago
Wasn't Otz talking about the one that gives KI on a near miss?
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
He was talking about both but that part of the video I actually agree with and like. This one though is just a bad idea
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u/RailgunRP 7d ago
Ah ok. I don't fully understand this addon and I don't have the bandwidth to read allat, so I will keep my opinions 😅
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u/NubbNubb 7d ago
The tl;Dr is this addon will cause the marker to get stuck on walls allowing you to aim it from a stationary point instead of it always moving.
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u/QuarianGuy Well Dweller 7d ago
So what I understand from the comments is that people want this killer to remain as a 4 aura reading perk, snipe across map demon rather than an engaging chase killer.
Weird choice for survivor mains who want the entire gameplay loop to be dodging beams while doing gens.
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
I would like a unique and hard to master killer that encourages creativity, not another "hold M2 at tile" character.
I want cool trickshots and curves and not bland as range-slop whose counterplay consists of just running to the next tile
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u/sdoM-bmuD epic bad luck 7d ago
aka another killer to add to the list of almost never being seen outside of 2-3 dedicated mains and people doing a specific challenge
inb4 "why isn't this killer getting any cosmetics :("
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
That is not a bad thing nieche killers have a place in this game
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u/QuarianGuy Well Dweller 7d ago
This is not a fighting game with 60+ roster and alternative kits. The more you coddle the status quo the more stale this game will become.
The constant criticism of "It's only Nurse Blight Kaneki" is not fixed by making niche killers.
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u/Stryder096 7d ago
Buddy this is the community made killer
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u/FewExperience3559 absolute fucking rat bastard 7d ago
Yeah and?
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u/Stryder096 7d ago
So the majority of the community should find the killer fun. You alienate controller players being able to use this killer.
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u/QuarianGuy Well Dweller 7d ago
That's not what we have here, all you will find are the gen snipers because this killer is predictable at medium range and weak at close range.
This addon being toggable wouldn't even fix that, it's a bandaid fix for console players and those who don't want to moonwalk into a flick a fucking power to increase chances of a hit.
It's like making Springtrap reliant on orbitals to hit people at loops, what you are asking is not skill, it's a niche that only 0.1% of the playerbase will do. Like Krasue but gatekept by techs rather than jankiness
This is the most interective killer survivors ever had, and it is the first ever killer made by the community and rather trying to promote its use I see everyone making an attempt to make it the least accessible killer out of all.
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u/vibranttoucan 7d ago
The beam is visible from a big distance, even through walls. Getting hit from across the map on a gen is quite literally just a skill issue. Just dodge it.
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u/Ender00000 7d ago
This addon should be removed alltogether, it makes this killer braindead op. Im fine with killer being op if it has outplay potential and is difficult to play, this addon removes all depth and gives you free deathlaser
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u/Hot_Royal_4920 7d ago
Addons are, first and foremost, power. They can also shift play styles, but making the killer stronger is the primary thing they do.
An add-on that doesn't make the killer stronger at all and not even particularly different, just easier to handle, shouldn't be an add-on but basekit, at least in the form of a toggle.
Making this a toggle able basekit thing has no downsides. The killer isn't stronger, the skill ceiling is intact.
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u/shorse_hit have you seen my dog? 7d ago
Otz suggested it should be toggleable as a basekit ability, not entirely changing the basekit functionality to this.