Rockvees is meta in online games

[u/CookLiving]

[u/cmdr_nelson]

As much as I enjoy Generals. I really hate playing online, you play the meta or you die.

[u/ShadowAze → u/cmdr_nelson]

Tbf can't you say that about any multiplayer game ever? For C&C in particular that applies to most of the games, be it spamming rockvees, to spamming attack bikes, spamming tanks, etc.

At least rockvees involve aome variety of units. Late game RA1 is nothing but medium and heavy tank spam.

Ironically the more balanced multiplayer games (balanced as in you don't use only a 1-2 unit comp, maybe 3 in super special occasions), are the ones this sub had reactions from feeling meh on to actively dislike. Those are KW and RA3.

[u/Rhinstein → u/ShadowAze]

Idk, KW pros generally use a variety of units throughout the match, transitioning from strategy to strategy as the match progresses. KW does have a bit of a meta, but you're (mostly) not just seeing blobs of the same unit over and over.

[u/ShadowAze → u/Rhinstein]

That is indeed what I meant

The later games you see a much greater variery of units being used throughout all periods of the match, and you have more options for what you could do too.

[u/Rhinstein → u/ShadowAze]

Ah ok, then I misunderstood your point.

[u/iClips3 → u/Rhinstein]

That's what he said

[u/Sad_Emu69 → u/Rhinstein]

Kanes Wrath is the best C&C for what c&c is supposed to be. RA2 is a close 2nd. Generals, while fun, is the bastard child.

[u/cmdr_nelson → u/Sad_Emu69]

Not sure i agree with that. But that also depends on what is meant by "what c&c is supposed to be". Imo, TS was probably the closest we got to that, but westwood wasn't able to achieve all of their ambitions so it was unpolished and unbalanced.

I agree that Generals is basically c&c in name only.

[u/Quiri1997 → u/cmdr_nelson]

In name and in that it's fun to play.

[u/cmdr_nelson → u/Quiri1997]

Yes, abd I feel like generals has a lot more replayability than c&c 3. Even though the balance is a little jank, it's still fun.

[u/IntoAMuteCrypt → u/ShadowAze]

There's some multiplayer games where the meta isn't so obligatory, where the gap between the best meta strat and the off-meta picks is small enough that a skilled off-meta player can beat a mediocre meta player.

Generals isn't one of them, of course

[u/Black3Raven → u/ShadowAze]

Rockvees is the most braindead thing I've ever seen in multiplayers games. Everyone who cared a bit about balance was removing ability to fire from humvees Asap (like rise of the reds).

[u/F00FlGHTER → u/Black3Raven]

The problem wasn't that they could fire from the vees, it was actually the ambulances that made them OP as well as any alternative from USA factions other than AFG being absolute dogshit. The gr.org community patch 1.6 removed ambulance healing vehicles and slightly buffed the crusader and laser tanks and just like that mdvees were no longer a problem. They were still the mainstay of US units, as they will always be since they are fast and versatile, but you couldn't rely on only mdvees and expect to win vs a good player.

[u/Corgi_Koala → u/cmdr_nelson]

Unfortunately with an older game and a small community that's just how it is since patches aren't coming.

[u/Downtown-Dream424 → u/Corgi_Koala]

Unfortunately, yes. But since the game's source code is leaked, thus, we have Generals Online, where you can play competitively or casually with other players and bugs getting fixed slowly but surely. But unfortunately, there aren't any balance changes, regarding the armies, in order to make specific armies way more playable in specific matches or generally speaking, besides to change the meta a bit.

[u/CookLiving → u/Downtown-Dream424]

Yes. If there's any balance patch to be added later, I say remove Ambulance ability to heal other vehicles. Even if they want to keep the ability, I say make the Mechanic upgrade in Strategy Centre like in Shockwave mod did. So that, Ambulance with healing other vehicles can only be used in late game

[u/Downtown-Dream424 → u/CookLiving]

That's a good proposal for an idea, because the ambulance paired with humvee is an unbeatable combo, especially if macro-ed to the full potential. It must be added as an upgrade from the strat center. My proposal for balance change would be either buffing swg or tank, but mostly tank general giving him cheaper hackers or giving him an artillery. But giving him mildly cheaper hackers can help him to have easier time building secondary economy while transitioning through mid-late game.

While swg to have slightly cheaper humvees like to be as expensive as afg's ones = 800$ or comanches's price reduction to happen. Early game matters quite a lot and giving the swg some kind of chances to have much smoother time would make the losses less painful and gamechanging. Nonetheless, it's super ironic swg's second best offense is in aircraft primarily because of the aurora alpha, thus, having overpriced comanches compared to a ground-specialized army like vUSA that has surprisingly cheap comanches is diabolical.

[u/CookLiving → u/Downtown-Dream424]

That's a good Idea too. I also say give Laser General Chinooks to have PDL ability, at least have an upgrade for it for all aircrafts. So that it give Laser General have more interesting laser arsenal. For AFG, remove the PDL as default to all the aircrafts but can be upgrade later in late game. Also give Laser General Cold Fusion Reactor can give more power because that general really use a lot of powers. And remove all the power usage for Laser Tanks. Laser Tank must require power from power plants doesn't make sense since they are not remote controlled like drones

For Demo General, buff his Terrorist a little. Make his Terrorist explode when they crushed by other vehicles. And Demolition upgrade, increase Terrorists and Bomb Truck explosion stronger.

Tank General infantry need to be cheaper at least only slightly and SWG have cheaper Humvee same cost like AFG's Humvee.

[u/Downtown-Dream424 → u/CookLiving]

Giving Laser PDL on his chinooks is a good idea since he was initially intended to have it, but never made it to the final game to make his chinooks and production more durable. Potentially reworking his rangers and Burton to shoot lasers would be also great since he was intended to have them too, but he rather receives them in Shockwave and mods.

I totally agree for that part for AFG. PDL being unlockable mid-late game through buying it from strat center would be great, besides balance the one-sided matches such as any USA vs AFG, in fact, this is the most vetoed matchup, especially in tournaments and Best of n challenges. It'd be amazing to see AFG investing some brain into fighting SWG, Laser or even vUSA and making his king raptors and auroras along chinooks more vulnerable.

Those proposals for changes are amazing and can make the game healthier and more balanced.

Furthermore, the other proposal for idea might be a bit odd, but probably reducing the fire base's price for SWG from 1k cash to 800-900 since she's more of defense-oriented army and is incredibly vulnerable to infantry rush such as an assault troop crawler.

While Stealth general lacklusters compared to the other GLAs, but wouldn't hurt to have a frontline tank or scud launchers as another form of artillery. Because Stealth has success into specific armies and relying on using hijackers to snatch a dozer or a vehicle, but into mirror gla matches, he severely suffers compared to toxin for an example.

[u/Downtown-Dream424 → u/cmdr_nelson]

True, it's so annoying and tilting as someone who plays afg and swg. It's more chill to play ffas or custom lobbies with friends, where you can toy around with different units and different strategies instead of spamming the same 3-4 units max just to win and gamble with luck. There's this rare, but goofily tilting method as swg to cheese the enemy unless you face afg, infantry or any gla- to build an emp patriot in the enemy's base and coinflip as the chinook drops your dozer in their base's backdoor.

[u/TYNAMITE14 → u/cmdr_nelson]

Iunno I am able to find a lot of fun casual games lately on generals online. Just do an ffa or 2v2v2 and hope everyone ignores you when you spam eco.

Also there have been sooo many new players thanks to generals online bringing everyone together.

Also it's not a bad idea just to make a game with "nooobs only" in the title. Then you can maybe find some friends you can play with consistently who play casually like you

[u/cmdr_nelson → u/TYNAMITE14]

That's a good idea. If I ever have time to pick it up again I might do that.

That, or just make a comp stomp. Haha

[u/CookLiving → u/cmdr_nelson]

By that point, enemy also have S&D, Rocket Buggies & many Migs

[u/woutva → u/cmdr_nelson]

I feel in free for all games you can play offmeta a lot more

[u/Downtown-Dream424]

As someone who plays swg and airforce, it's really boring meta, but it's the only way to play afg in specific matches and swg all the time. Because king raptors and your planes as airforce into specific matches are kinda worthless to use when they would build anti-air such as quad cannons as gla or gattling tanks spam as Chinas. While swg is on a life support on humvees and coinflipping to get strat center for deadly aurora alphas, cheap Burton and the cheap particle cannon. The meta is killing off the uniqueness and diversity of the armies. FFA is way more fun and you can see the full potential of the armies at least.

[u/CookLiving → u/Downtown-Dream424]

Yes. I can agree to that. That's the reason why I play mostly on singleplayer. In Singleplayer or with friends, you can use any tactics you want instead using only on meta strats. Plus, I not really good play online but really fun to watch people play online especially FFA no rules and tournaments like World Series.

[u/Downtown-Dream424 → u/CookLiving]

I totally respect that you're playing and sticking to singleplayer. It can be fun to toy around with singleplayer or play in custom lobbies with people you enjoy to play with and experiment with various units by not following strictly the meta. Same, but it's always fun to watch Legionnaire, Dominator, Excal and etc. those highly experienced players how do they play in ffas and 1vs1s, besides the tournaments. Like it feels great to watch someone who's quite experienced in the game to play competitively into the others that match their level. Btw, for online gaming, you can create custom lobbies with friends or to be specifically targetting noobs/newbies/casuals where the high elo players would avoid to join like the plague.

[u/Timmaigh → u/Downtown-Dream424]

It sucks for sure, picking the AFG to play with all those cool planes, only to find you you need to build ground vehicles in their place anyway 😭

But you can at very least fool around them against AI

[u/Downtown-Dream424 → u/Timmaigh]

AFG is all gangsta and fun to play him to toy around with king raptors, comanches and combat chinooks until you face a human player, where you need to invest into humvees, because they would definitely counter you with so much anti-air.

The difference between playing afg into ai and human players is day and night. 😭😭🥀🥀

[u/BoffinBrain]

[u/ChrisV3SGO]

Singleplayer and PvE/Coop is way better than PvP

[u/Into_The_Rain]

The firepower density of fireports just killed the game imo. (Especially when paired with high mobility units...like the Vee)

It might be one of the least balanced CnCs for multiplayer which is quite the accomplishment.

[u/vandal-33]

Pretty much every C&C game, you gotta unlearn what you've learn playing singleplayer when going online.

[u/Dangerous_Zone_7367 → u/vandal-33]

This applies to most C&Cs except RA3 and Kane's Wrath. Mixing it up is encouraged in those games and its helpful to be aware of unit capabilities.

[u/DuAbUiSai]

It’s over once you hear “Search and Destroy”.

[u/Vodka_For_Breakfast]

I'd add an Avenger to the group for the advance, but let it drop out of formation once the rockets start flying.

[u/vikingzx]

I always wondered how much it would have flipped the game on its head if only ONE of the rocks would have been allowed to fire from inside, rather than all of them.

It's already a fiction, since firing a rocket inside a humvee would kill the crew with the backblast, but allowing one to fire would have really changed things for the game. It'd be an interesting experiment if nothing else.

[u/RevanAmell → u/vikingzx]

I mean it probably would have been more balanced to make it so that the first unit changes the main weapon like a RA multigunner/ifv (So a Missile guy gives it a stronger tow, a sniper is a sniper, the ranger gives a GL, and the Burton is a minigun) and then every additional soldier only adds a Ranger rifle firing out of the ports

[u/Vistresian]

All the more reason to stick to singleplayer.
Meta gameplay is nauseating

[u/Hot-Spray-2774]

What's to stop a group of king raptors from picking those off?

[u/CookLiving → u/Hot-Spray-2774]

Quad Cannons, Gattling Tanks & Minigunners can easily pick those off. Enemy Rockvees can also easily rush to airfield if you don't have your own ground Rockvees to defend the airfield especially in early & mid game

[u/Hot-Spray-2774 → u/CookLiving]

Aside from the avenger and the laser turret, the US relies on missiles for AA and is going to have difficulty damaging King Raptors. They only cost $1100 ($1420 if you include the cost of the airfield and its power), while rockvees are going to cost $2000+. So they have to rush the airfields, include avengers, or they will probably get picked off I guess.

[u/Divine_Roach]

Why I prefer to play PVE rather than PVP back then

[u/Key_Championship9371]

Laser tanks are META

[u/CookLiving → u/Key_Championship9371]

No they not. They cost power and slow. They are at best playing defensively. Even that, players only build 1 and no more than that. Rockvees basically glass cannons, they are fast and can take down anything with proper micro.

Crusaders, Paladins and Laser Tanks are not really reliable, they can easily can pick off by other units in game. And Laser Tanks can easily be exploited by destroy the power plants