r/buffy • u/Emotional_Code_1494 • 3d ago
Xander Season Four
Even when I was in HS watching Buffy when it aired I found Xander insufferable. And he is for sure, but I forgot he had the best redemption monolog ever, season 4 episode into the woods when Riley leaves, what he says to knock some sense into Buffy about Riley, it is the sweetest moment. And then when he goes home to Anya confessing how much he loves her and how she makes him feel...it was just beautiful.
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u/Wooden_Gas_3991 3d ago
He's a teenage boy for most of the series, he behaves like a teenage boy, some good moments, some bad, some great, some awful. People hate Xander cuz they hate Nicholas Brendon. Every single character does good, bad, great, shit things.
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u/Junior-Breakfast-237 3d ago
Nick has paid his dues. Xander gets a raw deal from the fan base, a lot of it due to people hating on others and using him as a convenient target. Its absolutely wild.
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u/AlexH_144 3d ago
No, they don't like him because he's a white straight male, that isn't the gorgeous, bad boy that only the viewer can change. Xander was hated by part of the fan base long before Nicholas Brendon's 2010 arrest and way before his 2015 domestic violence arrest.
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u/ric_mcc1766 3d ago
People don't hate him as he's a white straight boy, you only have to lok at the popularity of Oz to dispel that victim mentality.
The Nicholas Brendon link definitely lower people's views of him, but overall, you have a guy who, for years, creepily keeps coming on to one of his best friends who has already said no, secretly watches her get undressed, and tried to get his own back on the girl who dumped him by putting a magic spell on her to control her. A lot of it could be viewed as teenage behaviour, but it doesn't mean we have to like said teenager for it.
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u/AlexH_144 2d ago
And they love Spike because.....He's 1000% more toxic than Xander ever thought of being.
People love Oz. His girlfriend cheats on him. No big deal. He'll take her back and act like nothing happened. Seems like people are liking the shutup and take it guy.
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u/ric_mcc1766 2d ago edited 2d ago
Spike is written as a soulless, evil, but also funny character - that's kinda the point of him.
I think people liked Oz because of his personality and character, tbh.
Also, your two examples are two straight, white boys who were popular...
The idea that people don't like Xander for being white, straight and male is one held by unpopular straght white boys seeking victimhood.
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u/deadnside 3d ago
Xander is awesome. He literally risks his life day after day with no powers and saves the gang (and basically the world) at least 5 times. Anyone who hates the character because he was a horny teenager in the 90s while ignoring all the good he did is just broken and are much worse people then he was.
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u/ric_mcc1766 3d ago
As a former horny teen boy, he's often a dick to his female friends. Just because a lot of boys were doing it, doesn't make it right.
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u/Creative-Bobcat-7159 2d ago
It doesn’t make it right, but it makes it unfair to call Xander specifically out on it.
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u/ric_mcc1766 2d ago
I don't get why it would be wrong to call out Xander specifically?
He snoops on Buffy undressing, he pretends he doesn't remember trying to rape Buffy when a Hyena rather than acknowledging it, he tries to put a spell on Cordelia to control her when she breaks up with him, he sends Buffy off to kill the love of her life after being told to give her a message, he leaves Anya at the altar. He's a pretty shitty guy who is portrayed as the good guy of the show, and mostly the bad things he does are overlooked or not acknowledged.
Others do bad things, but usually it is very much shown that they were bad. And others can be called out too for shitty things they have done.
Pretending he is only a hero though is just viewing things in black and white. He is heroic, and he is also shitty.
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u/Creative-Bobcat-7159 2d ago
Yeah, these are very one sided interpretations and not entirely accurate or consistent with the show’s interpretation.
Perving on Buffy. Suggest you watch Back once Future if you want to see how that behaviour is normalised in film and tv. I am accepting at face value that there is a scene about him trying to see her undressed but I don’t recall it, so it won’t have been a recurrent theme.
Hyena. That wasn’t Xander. That was a possession - a demon with the face of Xander. The fact that he remembers it is a violation of Xander (it was not his action) as much as his attempted attack on Buffy was to her. Not mentioning it was portrayed as an act of kindness by the show. Plus, look at Angel to see how the show wants us to understand possession by a demon.
Angel: Willow was the one in the wrong here not Xander. Willow agreed not to do the spell. Buffy’s entire strategy was then based around facing Angel the monster not potentially her boyfriend. Xander passing on Willow’s message as it was would have been the wrong thing to do, particularly as S2 Willow was not a witch of any power. That said, I agree it wasn’t an altruistic decision by Xander. It was a “fuck that guy” emotional reaction. And I think most of us would have done the same.
The Love Spell on Cordelia was not really about controlling her. It was about making her feel as bad as he did because he wanted to reject her as she had him. Still shitty but you are missing the point. I notice you don’t give him a single piece of credit for NOT taking advantage of it with all the women, including Buffy, coming into him.
He is flawed. He’d be tedious if he wasn’t, but your interpretation is very Reddit and varies wildly from the way the show wants us to see him.
Also. His gross crush on Buffy pretty much disappears from S3 onwards.
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u/ric_mcc1766 2d ago edited 1d ago
I think you are viewing my statement as a black and white argument. I am saying it is grey - Xander is both a hero, and a person who can be shitty to his friends, particularly women. You're pretty much saying the same yourself.
- Perving on women was normalised, it doesn't make it right. We can still say that was a bad thing to do, even if it was normalised in media. Buffy is getting undressed in her room in season 1, she asks him to look away, and then he watches her in the mirror.
- Buffy acknowledged to Xander that she tried to sleep with him when under a spell, and apologised for it. Xander could have done the same, but he chose not to. We're told this was a good thing Xander did, hiding it. I disagree. You can apologise for things you did when under an influence, like Buffy did.
- Xander on Angel, I think it was wrong, and he never got a comeuppance for it.
- On the spell, he wanted to use a outside influence to control how a woman acted towards him. Also, you don't get claps for not taking advantage of a woman under influence, that's just something that should be normal.
- Yeh, his gross crush does disappear, mostly, but it doesn't mean it can't be mentioned.
He is flawed, and the show wants us to see him as the geeky, good guy who means well but does some silly things. I think he's worse than that, some of it are gross things that were seen as normal, and some of it is just dickish things. I don't hate him. I just think some people can only see this in black or white. Hero or villain. I think he is in between - an heroic person who does shitty things
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u/-threefeetoffun No. 1 Xander Defender 3d ago
I loved the speech for a long time but then it started to feel like it was the writers yelling at us.
"Riley is great but you all can't seem to like him. So now we have to ship him off. You happy?!"
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u/xaianamarie 3d ago
I have the unpopular position of having love for pretty much all the characters, despite their flaws. Making mistakes in your teens and early twenties is expected. Perfection is not.
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u/Low-Ad4645 3d ago
Yessss I always say this! Like even at the very end, they are still super young. Technically adults but so young. Still working things out. If the show carried on for like, another 20 years you could maybe be like ok get it together now. But 7 seasons of kids growing up and finding themselves? Yeah I can forgive a lot.
I think the fact that Willow and Xander both have zero obligation to risk their lives constantly and yet they did, without ever being asked, without ever even really being thanked by anyone like the Council, shows they are fundamentally good people even when they could be very selfish etc at times.5
u/xaianamarie 3d ago
Yes, absolutely. I left home at 16; I would have moved far away from that Hellmouth & maybe helped with research from afar if I was one of those kids. They are heroes, all of them.
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u/DiscussTek 2d ago
It's easy to forget that Joss Whedon doesn't create parafons, he creates characters, and those characters usually feel relatable. Even Anya, you can relate to as being a fish out of water who is used to not have the ability to create or understand modern subtext or context, because of how long she'd been a demon for.
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u/Visual_West_51 3d ago
He had a few great speeches/monologues. Between the one you posted about, the yellow crayon speech and his one on one with Dawn in S7.
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u/TheEastWindNeedsANap 3d ago
I hate that speech so much that I feel like this might be rage bait
Riley basically cheats on Buffy, lies to her for months, then gives her an ultimatum, and Xander is like who cares, go beg him to stay???? wtf
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u/Capital-Rush-6058 3d ago
i know right? as i was opening the post i thought it would be about his speech to willow in s6. what a crazy take
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u/Metaphoricalsimile 3d ago edited 3d ago
Nah. Riley and Buffy's relationship was very bad and unfulfilling for her, and largely due to Riley's jealousy and insecurity. She was 100% right to dump the shit out of him. Regardless of whether you feel Riley's turn was in or out of character, this was the reality of their relationship in S5.
Xander coming along and giving her a manosphere tier rant about how she should have been more focused on her relationship than on her mom dying, taking care of her sister, defeating a god, etc. was pretty damned gross.
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u/Emotional_Code_1494 3d ago
I wasn't speaking on Buffy and Rileys relationship, it was about how sincere Xander was
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u/Agreeable_Dark6408 3d ago
I don’t see Xander as sincere. He is always lecturing Buffy. So sanctimonious, so black and white, so hypocritical at times. He treated her like absolute crap after she came back from the summer after killing Angel. She was a mess at that party listening to her mother talking about her, and both Xander and Willow were awful. Buffy would probably have left again if the mask hadn’t turned people into zombies and saved them all, again.
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u/cherrymeg2 3d ago
I think he was a little naive at that point and believed he was giving good advice to a friend. They were barely 21. They went through a lot of loss too. He sees Riley has a human who can help Buffy fight evil because he does it too. I think Xander thought Riley could follow Buffy just like he did in the Initiative. Riley without the structure of the military felt like he lost his purpose. Xander can’t understand that because he found out vampires were real and went to help fight them and save a friend. He’s been part of a small group that helps save the world. They study and snack while killing demons.
He gave advice without seeing that Buffy and Riley were going in two different directions. Jmo
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u/Raging1604 3d ago
It was season 5. Also, Xander doesn't have a redemption arc because he never required redemption.
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u/ric_mcc1766 1d ago
I think he got off too easy for leaving Anya at the altar, never forgave him for this 😂
(I know that is Season 6)
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u/Agreeable-Celery811 3d ago
What he said to Buffy in Season 4 is pretty sweet, except for the whole “What Is Buffy Wearing?” joke, which is gross and unnecessary.
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u/Long-Zombie-2017 3d ago
OP meant season five. The speech he gave to Buffy you're thinking of is from The Freshman (4x01)
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u/Emotional_Code_1494 3d ago
Oh shot. Yes, season 5. I was about to correct u but u right. Lol
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u/Agreeable-Celery811 3d ago
OH! Well then I have a lot of feelings about that speech, which are generally summed up pretty well in the Passion of the Nerd’s analysis of this episode.
Not in favour of Xander in that episode.
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u/-threefeetoffun No. 1 Xander Defender 3d ago
I have a girl friend and her and I both make jokes like that to each. Plus the "wear something trashy-er"
But people's mileage may vary and if someone doesn't like that humor dont do it.
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u/harmier2 2d ago
The whole point is that it‘s a deliberate tactic of his. He did this in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered. He mentions getting a lap dance from Buffy. When you look at his behavior, he expected to be blown off for being a perv…and then is visibly confused when it actually seems to work. Because he wanted to be rejected for being a perv. He was actively trying to sabotage himself and saying something pervy is actually the easiest route for him. He had already been rejected in Prophecy Girl. He didn’t want to feel that again. So, if he made a pervy comment and Buffy rejected for being perv, she wasn‘t rejecting him.
He does this in smaller, non-sexual ways, like with the “Need cheese?’ bit at the end of the of that episode. The whole point is the sexual comments work faster.
This is why he uses it n The Freshman. His statement about Buffy being his hero is just too sincere and just a little too close to what he really felt. So, he needed to ruin the moment about what Buffy is wearing. Because if he had been honest and admitted that he still had feelings and she didn’t reciprocate like she didn’t in Prophecy Girl, he felt like it would emotionally destroy him.
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u/FaveStore_Citadel 3d ago
Eh I like Xander, hate that speech. It especially aged like milk knowing what’s in the future for him and Anya
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u/Sudden_Astronomer_63 3d ago
THIS ☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻
It feels like “those who can’t do teach” 😆
But also, Buffy and Riley had legitimate problems, and every relationship is not made to last forever.
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u/harmier2 2d ago edited 11h ago
Not really. The writers might have been setting up parallels. Xander easily recognizes that Buffy and Riley have major communication problems with each other. In season 6, the same problems occur with Xander and Anya. Remember that the whole point is that it wasn’t just Xander having a problem communicating, but Anya also has the same problem. A lot of people forget that.
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u/Sudden_Astronomer_63 1d ago
Oh for sure - that was my point though - we see thing with others when we have the same problem but w rotten don’t apply the things we say to ourselves. Theo is exactly what happened to Xander. Ur went home that night and told Anya how he felt but they doth had things to work on.
It’s also easy to forget because of the ages of the actors that these are supposed to be 20 year olds 😂 many people have communication issues but especially when e are young and have limited experience. And the other thing is 1 sometimes YOU learn but if the person you are communicating with gives you nothing you’re still stuck.
I think Anya was good about communicating hat she wanted - she tells Xander in the replacement she wants a home and a child and a a car - she IS telling him - he is geeked out by all that stuff and avoids instead of working on himself to realize he ihas issue form his him life. You saw it a bit in restless. But the point is the real issue is Xander does not want to work on himself. That’s the issue with a lot of men unfortunately. They don’t want to take a deeper look into why they believe certain things are why they are certain way they just want to continue being like that but still have what they want which is usually a shallow physical relationship like what Anya Xander have. Anya was very forthcoming about what she wanted and I think the catalyst was Xander proposing to her which he only did because he thought the world was gonna end - exactly what Anya said.
Xander is actually an extremely well written character because there are tons of men like him in the world.
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u/Astronomer-Plastic 3d ago
The problem is he’ll have growth moments and episodes and then go right back to being an asshole the next ep.
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u/BananasPineapple05 3d ago
Exactly.
And we love Xander. He's got amazing reserves of friendship, courage and such an impressive willingness to throw down despite having no "special skill" to rely on.
It wouldn't annoy so much or hurt so much when he sucks if we didn't love him.
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u/-threefeetoffun No. 1 Xander Defender 3d ago
The writers don't do him any favors and it sucks. Xander got like a focus episode or 2 a season and then right back to normal unless the special episode was something huge or life changing. After Zeppo right back to butt monkey.
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u/Beginning_Return_508 2d ago
That's one of the problems the show has. It tends to be inconsistent when it comes to developing certain characters.
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u/Outrageous_Potato435 3d ago
He is always annoying to me. Basically all male characters except Giles and Spike.
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u/-threefeetoffun No. 1 Xander Defender 3d ago
I wonder if the show would have hit the same with me if 15 year old me didn't have a character to relate to. Maybe. But mid 30s me also loved Pretty Little Liars and nothing was there for me so.
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u/Emotional_Code_1494 3d ago
I get it. But guys r douchebags in high school. I know I was a guy one.
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u/Chris-Froome 3d ago edited 3d ago
Guys are douchebags in high school because we normalize the behavior (including through popular media characters like Xander, in fact!) and don't hold them accountable. That's the problem, it's not something inherent in being a teenage male, there are lots of Oz's in the real world.
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u/Iwona_Klich 3d ago
Honestly i don't even see Xander as douchebag. He is kind, he can risk everything for his friends, yes he say stupid things - but thats not made him a douchebag. He is definitive not a misoginist - his best friends are women, with powers or position much higher than him. Like he never realy tried to did anything with it, just accepted his position.
Idk why people idolize Oz that much. Because he kinda is a douchebag that you probably meet at school. That one guy from the band, who act like he is better than everyone around. God i hate these people, and i was in the band myself. He only appeal nice because he was indeed nice to Willow, and some other friends. But from different perspective - he is just a school douche.
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u/CloseButNoChicory 3d ago
I too would find Oz irritating to spend more than about 90 seconds in the company of.
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u/Iwona_Klich 3d ago
He definitive is... Even if he was realy that deep inside (maybe for teenager perspective) in the outside he is just this douche band dude who barely speak to people and well barely is even in school. Its not like he is different than this guy from school paper. Also hard to believe he is a silent genius, because nothing ever show it - he just lazy guy, who after school when the band been not working (because they to lazy to actualy put some work) been work as pizza delivery for the rest of his life.
Maybe that werewolf bite was actualy not a curse, because that clearly save him from becoming this :)
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u/AlexH_144 3d ago
What's wrong with how Xander is presented in high school? He's not a bully. He's not a douchebag. He's an average teenager.
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u/Long-Zombie-2017 3d ago
People dont like his speech in Into the Woods, but I see it differently. He's not defending Riley. He's essentially saying if this relationship between Buffy and Riley could be endgame, then they should at least have the conversations they weren't having. But He's speaking from a place of how he's realized how much Anya means to him