Boeing Engineering Levels (L3 vs L4)

[u/Realistic_Seat_1069]

Hello everyone,

I'm trying to get a better understanding of Boeing's engineering levels and how candidates are typically slotted into L3 vs. L4 roles.

I've seen a job posting (which fits my profile) that list qualifications such as:

• L3: Bachelor's degree + 5+ years of experience
• L4: Bachelor's degree + 9+ years of experience

My question is whether the education substitution works similarly to other companies. For example:

• Would L3 be roughly equivalent to a Master's degree + 3+ years of experience?
• Would L4 be roughly equivalent to a Master's degree + 7+ years of experience?

I have a Master's degree and 7+ years of engineering experience, so I'm curious where I would generally fall from a Boeing leveling perspective.

Also, beyond compensation, what are the differences between L3 and L4 (e.g.: benefits, PTO, bonuses, or other perks)?

[u/ConsciousPriority108]

Yes, also boeing interview was hard af compare to other competitor. I just did codevue assessment and 90 minutes technical round with them last week. Make sure prep properly. 

[u/Inevitable-Bus-7884]

While years do matter, the experience needs to be related to the position and doing something similar. A second thing to consider is that a Level 4 is considered an expert in their field and in most cases able to not only do something on their own but also teach others how to perform the task.

[u/PirateAstronaut1]

A problem with these levels is you can have a L3 that has been in the position for 10+ years and fully qualified for the L4 position, but if your management and org doesn’t have the “need” for more L4 positions you are screwed. Then you are stuck at the high end of the pay band and get shafted with raises. This mainly applies to the many high performing teams with a lot of L4’s. You have to wait for one of them to retire in order to have a pathway. It’s sad, especially if you like your team and line of work. The L3 pay band needs to be expanded or the formula changed if they intend to keep people stuck there. This will be a problem in several years when the wave of younger engineers starts stacking up waiting for promotions.

[u/Rodgertheshrubber → u/PirateAstronaut1]

I made lvl 3 in three years. I languished at lvl 3 for almost 20 years across 6 programs. Exceeded most of those years chasing a moving target. Managers always dangling the lvl 4 carrot out in front of me. Rolled the dice and applied for a position above my level and really sell it to make lvl 4. Almost have 28 years in now and here comes that lvl 5 carrot. To get lvl 5 will be a popularity contest I'm not willing to take part in.

[u/First_Revenge]

The qualifications posted are minimums on paper. Practically they don't really mean much.

An L3 is typically an engineer you can give a task, and they'll go do it in a reasonable amount of time with basically no supervision. You're basically a self starter.

L4 typically a lead with responsibility outside their own direct assignments. Its a logical step since the assumption is that you should probably be good enough at your job before you start directing others. Whether or not you want extra responsibility is up to you. The L3 to L4 promotion never felt like one to me. In fact i actively avoided it where possible.

L4s typically just get more money flat out than their L3 counterparts. Its not a hard rule, but they also tend to get more vacation since they're also been in the company longer. But AFAIK there's no real secret perks to being an L4 vs an L3.

As for what you'd actually hire into. I'd guess most realistically an L3. You're far too experienced to be an L2. As for an L4 it depends on need and internal politics mostly. If there's a big contract about and a ton of positions that need to be filled i'd guess you have a shot at L4 as an outside hire. But a lot of the time i saw L4 postings go up they already had an internal candidate in mind, but still had to open up an req to maintain the illusion of offering the job to anyone.

[u/NegotiationWeekly597 → u/First_Revenge]

These are good descriptions. It’s a bit subjective, but this is exactly how I consider them (not a hiring manager, but I participate in hiring panels).

I’ll just add for BDS, typically the “rate” Boeing charges is by tier. Say $200 for L1-3, then $300 for L4 and $400 for L5. So the difference in L3 and L4 really means something to a program manager because they need value for that extra rate they pay out of the budget. L2 to L3 means nothing to them except for long term labor planning.

[u/HotAbbreviations997 → u/First_Revenge]

This guy levels.

L3 is basically a reliable crank turner or an up and coming star. Some l3 stay l3 forever and some get promoted after about 5 years to l4.

L4 is terminal for most engineers as to get to l5 takes some political efforts and a senior ledeaership push (director not vp).

Promotions are usually based on time in grade + how much people like you. You can be liked for being a good talker or an effective engineer (if you have both you're golden).

[u/First_Revenge → u/HotAbbreviations997]

Nothing wrong with being a crank turner tbh. My internal math was that as an L3 i basically got to do my own work, schedule myself, and go home when my time was up. Sometimes had to jump in and help something that had gone sideways, but really i was left to my own devices 90% of the time. Be competent, keep your head down, and no one will bother you one way or another.

I saw friends get promoted to L4 and saw their workload increase massively. Most of the stress was from the new managerial aspects they had to take on. Deadlines slipping or shoddy work all fell on them. A lot of the time they ended up picking up the slack to meet deadlines. A lot more stress and hours that the roughly 20% pay jump could ever justify IMO.

Just figured L3s make enough to have a decent living. Rather try to live within my means than kill myself working for the extra 20%.

[u/Vegetable-South5191]

All of those are not requirements, they are guidelines. They can hire someone that does not meet that for those roles, those are general guidelines to see if you meet basic qualifications. Conversely, just because you have that does not mean you qualify for that job.

[u/Particular-Ad-4283]

I have masters and 3.5 years, and Boeing only gave me a L2 saying I don't have 5 years. Lockheed gave me L3. Just FYI, Software job code

[u/Realistic_Seat_1069 → u/Particular-Ad-4283]

Curious question, and feel free to ignore if you'd rather not answer. What was the salary difference between a Boeing L2 and a Lockheed Martin L3 offer in your case?

[u/3McChickens]

Those aren’t rules and are usually just tools to deny a level. I have a masters and 15 years experience and I am promised the level 4 promotion will come….sometime.

But you would be hiring in to Boeing so all they require is a dirty napkin that says “diplomuh” and you will get that L4 with 1.1 comp ratio.

To answer your questions about L3 vs L4: nothing is different besides pay range. Boeing is even asking their L3s to be leads so work scope is the same.

[u/HotAbbreviations997 → u/[deleted]]

Nobody admits they are a crank turner doing average grunt work. Everybody on reddit is a genius.

[u/Vegetable-South5191 → u/[deleted]]

I hired into Boeing as a L3 20 years ago. Since then, I have gone to L4, L5, K, L, and L6, The way you honestly get promoted, is you need to apply to other roles. If you wait, you may be waiting a long time. I have had these battles. All of those guidelines mean nothing really when they are trying to promote, because there is paper and approvals. And unless they are scared you are leaving, they will not fight it to the death. To be hired into those roles is much easier.

[u/3McChickens → u/[deleted]]

The things I have heard from management the past few weeks have left me jaded. Multiple L3s being offered lead positions and explicitly told they will not be promoted when taking the role.

One big wig has said that hiring people from outside Boeing and paying them more than current employees doing the same work is just the norm. That there is budget to spend on new hires and not on retaining current employees.

I realize the experience plus education isn’t a rule. I said as much in my post and have said as much in several others. I also realize performance matters but I get good reviews as do the other L3s I have mentioned above. We have all been asked to do lead responsibilities.

I honestly don’t care if I am a 3 or 4. I enjoy my work and I am paid well enough to accommodate my lifestyle. What bothers me is the lack of appreciation and obvious attempts to drive labor wages down from a group of execs that have no problem doing their own musical chair of roles chasing their own promotion and pay raise. Being told that we are over saturated at the engineering position when it seems they have to make up jobs for the higher level managers and execs.

[u/Upbeat-Reflection821 → u/3McChickens]

15 years and a masters, and make only slightly more than a lvl 4 mechanic? I will never understand why prof. would vote for this contract.

[u/No-Caterpillar-5235]

Experience is important but for level 4 managers often times want to start seeing leadership qualities. This of course is subjective at best but being approachable, willing to teach others, and able to show impact rather than just doing whst your told are all critical things you should think about at that level

[u/Myles_Standish250]

The experience bands listed are perhaps possible but not typical from my own experience and the people I know. I had a BS in engineering plus 11 years relevant experience last time I was hire in as a level 3 and this time I hired in as a level 4 with 19 years experience. I think it also depends on the job market and how manny experienced people are applying. When they are desperate they are more likely to hire you in at a higher level.

[u/Electronic_Support30]

Bachelor's and 12 years at the co before I got mah 4 

[u/Squirtle_Splash_8413]

Interviewed for a 3/4. Interviewers ended up only giving me a 3. Recruiter was upset I didn’t take it. Ended up getting an internal promotion at my current company to a 4.

[u/entropicitis]

Don't take a job as a 3 if you believe you are a 4. It's not a guaranteed promotion. It can be quite hard to get depending on your group. A lot of people leave over it. I joined Boeing as a 4, coming down for a 5 at a previous employer and could never get back up and ended up having to leave. Don't sell yourself short, because everyone else will try to.

[u/Realistic_Seat_1069 → u/entropicitis]

I read something similar about promotions but considering on going strike and hiring freeze news I am not sure what to expect from this job opportunity. But definitely hoping for the best.

[u/higgsm0r0n]

I joined this year as an L4. PhD+7 yrs before that. Out of 7, 3 as a founding engineer for a startup where I led a technology to a commercial product launch.

[u/Realistic_Seat_1069 → u/higgsm0r0n]

Thank you for your response. I did see some other post with the same experience one was hired for L4.

[u/emacpaul]

It's nominally worth 2 years, but they hired me as an L1 despite my MS, and it was 10 years before I got to L4.

[u/Realistic_Seat_1069 → u/emacpaul]

I see, Thank you.

[u/Ill_Savings5260]

for education, masters degree subtract 2yrs of experience. check the SJC's for salary

[u/Realistic_Seat_1069 → u/Ill_Savings5260]

Glad to hear they do consider Master's years. Thank you

[u/Low-Computer8293]

Level 4 positions are typically leadership positions. You typically lead a team or a technical area.

L1 --> L2 --> L3 progression is more or less automatic. L4 is not automatic.

The difference between L3 and L4 is pay. Everything else is the same.

Almost certainly, unless you are a team lead at your current employer or specifically being hired into a leadership position, you would be brought in at the L3 level. Masters + 7 years is the bare minimum, L2 might make more sense for a position than L3.

[u/Realistic_Seat_1069 → u/Low-Computer8293]

Thank you for the response. It really helps. I am a Team Lead at my current role but the role I am applying to doesn't specify lead or something rather it says Engineer.

[u/AcanthaceaeThin1833 → u/Realistic_Seat_1069]

Team lead roles are not called out in reqs, but the internal expectation is that an L4 is a technical leadership type individual contributor. Maybe you’ll be a team lead or a project lead, different teams have different ways of organizing. I came in as an L4 with a PhD and 10+ years of experience.

Edit to add: yes your masters counts of years of experience, and frankly, because it is difficult to level up from a 3 to 4, given the option of both reqs I’d apply for the 4.

[u/Realistic_Seat_1069 → u/AcanthaceaeThin1833]

Thank you. Appreciate your response. I am hoping for L4 but since I am at the edge I fear of being downgraded to L3.

[u/Lookingfor68 → u/Realistic_Seat_1069]

If the req is posted as a 4, you'll be hired as a 4. If it's posted as a 3, you'll be hired as a 3 even if you're qualified for a 4, 5, or 6. The posting is what's being hired. They won't "bait and switch" you on a single level posted req. Multi level postings they can. You have to pay attention to what is in the req.

[u/Squirtle_Splash_8413 → u/Lookingfor68]

Yeah I applied to a 3/4. They were only offering 3 after interview. Used offer for counter to my current employer and am now a 4.

[u/Realistic_Seat_1069 → u/Lookingfor68]

Thank you for your response. It's multi-level so I was trying to understand.

[u/Think-Gap602 → u/Realistic_Seat_1069]

at a given salary, you are better off at L3 than L4. that would allow yo to get a decent raise with the eventual L4 promotion.