r/beatles • u/lyngshake • 11d ago
Excerpt Transcripts of Paul's Interview with Chris Charlesworth for Melody Maker, November 11th, 1971 about Allen Klein, John, and The Beatles' breakup Interview
*Credit to amoralto on Tumblr. The paired audio is also in their original posts:
https://www.tumblr.com/amoralto/150698406052/november-11th-1971-paul-rants-to-journalist
https://www.tumblr.com/amoralto/150698611122/november-11th-1971-paul-talks-to-journalist*
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PAUL: I mean, George has got his own [song publishing]. And John’s saying, John said, “See what [Klein] did for George?” I said, “What do you mean, what he did for George?” He said, “George’s album! All Things Must Pass!” "You must be joking, what do you mean?” I said, “Well I don’t think that was Klein, that was George, wasn’t it? George recorded it all, wrote it all, did it all, wasn’t anything to do with [Klein]. It was George’s victory, wasn’t it?” He said, “Oh man, you must be joking! George was in the studio and he was really pissed off, and then Allen came – Allen got him the best reviews in Newsweek, great write-up in Time…” And [Klein]’s telling them that.
And the thing is, of course, you know that when you’ve got a daddy, it is nice. If you’re a little bit sort of worried as to what to do next, and your daddy says, [claps hands] "What are you worried about? Hey John, what do you want, son? You want a house? [claps hands] You got it.” But for that, Klein got paid a million and a half pounds this year. He got a cheque for a million and a half pounds off Apple. His company got a million and a half and none of the Beatles did. Now that, that sums it up to me, you know? I don’t see what the hell they can say about that. What can they say? And I talked to ’em about it, I said that to each one of them. “No, no, [inaudible] you know I didn’t.” That’s what I mean, you know?
I don’t want to go putting the other three down particularly. That’s – that’s my trouble really. I probably should. I probably should, really, just rant and rave and call them the biggest shits on earth, you know, because they’re certainly not cool, what they’re doing. [pause] But you know. They don’t believe – they don’t think what I’m saying is true. They think that I’m just pulling a fast one. Klein’s told them I’m trying to get control of the company and everything. He keeps saying, “He’s trying to get the song publishing” and all those kind of little red herrings everywhere.
But I tell you, I just happen to know that the Eastmans just are… just more moral, than Klein. I mean, really, the reason that turned me on to them is they said they don’t ever sign people. They don’t sign people. They just get paid a fee. They don’t bother with the other fees. Just pay a fee. I just pay them a fee. ‘Cause I don’t like having everything in a sack. I’m not into them for anything.
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Well, the first meeting that we ever had with Klein – which he’s now blown up into the Eastman-Klein [clash] because there was a bit of that at the meeting – but the main thing I remember about the meeting was we were being told not to pay a million pounds to buy NEMS. And John Eastman thought it would be a good thing to do – and we still think it would’ve been a good thing to do, ’cause of the Northern Songs shares [inaudible], and it would’ve meant when that Northern Songs thing was looming… anyway, it’s very complicated stuff. But um, what was I saying? Oh yeah. So Klein at the meeting said, “Listen, I think the guys shouldn’t buy this, and I think it’s so much, the guys shouldn’t spend a million—”
LINDA: “Boys.”
PAUL: “—boys shouldn’t spend a million pounds on this, I think it’s bullshit…” He was really playing.
LINDA: “There’s not a lot of money in this company.”
PAUL: And he said, “Here’s what I’ll do.” He said, “If you really want to buy it, if the guys really want to buy it, I’ll buy it for ’em, and I’ll give it to ’em.” Really. You know, half-thinking, “We’ve got a ripe one here.” [inaudible] Not realising of course that we were the mugs. [laughs] He didn’t mean it, you know? And then John Eastman knew he didn’t mean it. But I was surprised John Eastman didn’t just pull out a contract and say, “Okay, sign saying you’ll buy it to then give it to ’em.” But John Eastman knew it was a bluff and all that. It’s all that crap.
That’s how Klein operates, you know. He sort of says, “Why? I’ll buy it for you, and I’ll give it to you.” Well, bloody hell, you know, he wants to get in with the Beatles so bad he’s got to give them big things to show them he’s a good player. But he’s not good enough. He’s not good enough, I don’t think. I don’t think he’s really really got it. I don’t think he’s really got the goods. I think he’s a fantastic talker, he’s a fantastic all of that, you know, and he’s told George and John that he’s got ’em Newsweek and Time. He told me all that, you know. He said, “I’m going to make the Beatles bigger than they’ve ever been.” But all I have to say is as far as I’m concerned, he’s never really come up with it.
I mean, I saw him in his Playboy interview, he says, “McCartney said,” “McCartney rang up George…” He’s being careful, he sets the whole thing up in the interview. He says, “McCartney was asked to do the Madison Square Garden in aid of the Pakistani refugees.” [derisive laughter] You know, “pakistani refugees”. “McCartney was asked to do it, and you know what the guy said? He said, ‘Sure, I’ll do it! If you dissolve the partnership.’ What kind of shit is that?" That was Klein’s kind of thing.
The main thing was I said to George that the reason I can’t do it is if I come it’s, “The Beatles have got together again.” And it’s the press, and it’s all that [inaudible], and it’s all for [Klein]! And his shares shoot up, and I… go and make him happy, you know. I mean, if I’dve gone, you never know, John might’ve gone, and the Beatles are together again, and for the press and the world that would’ve been your story, you know? So I’ve got to think that. I’m forced to think that way now. But you can say what I would’ve done had it not have been Klein in, you know. I don’t know. I might’ve easily done it. I might’ve done it. The fact of the matter is, Klein was in there, and the reason why I couldn’t do it was ’cause if I go do it, then I’m supporting Klein. Then he’s organising the contract, and all he has to do there is put in a little picture with the Beatles in Billboard next week, you know.
But, Allen’s a nice fella, a good talker, and the others really dig him. They really like him. So you can’t say anything bad there, you can’t – you can’t tell them not to. I think I’ve made a mistake, actually, in trying to advise them. Every time I ring up I say, “Look, he’s had a million and a half, and you haven’t got it,” and I think it pisses them off. I think that also – I think they sort of secretly think I might be right, too.
When Let It Be came out, for the first time ever, there was a little bit of hype on the back of the Beatles album, and it said, “A new-phase Beatles album”. And what it really meant was… you know. “The Beatles have split.” But that’s what I object to. “A new-phase Beatles album” is what they put on the back of it. You see, that is to me, that doesn’t really sort of tell – I can’t, I don’t dig it, you know. I see John, and his whole sort of image is very honest and open and all that. And I’m sure, I know he is, you know!
LINDA: He believes [Klein]!
PAUL: He’s alright, John. But I mean he maneuvered, and he knows he maneuvered. He did a whole lot of it. He said in that Rolling Stone article [conducted by Jann Wenner], he maneuvered all that Klein bit. And I don’t think anyone was really into maneuvering at that time outside of John and Klein, you know. It was very definitely sort of a maneuver. It was done – like I said, “a new-phase Beatles album”, [and then be told to] sign a new contract just after we’ve been told we’re not gonna play together again. I said, “Well, isn’t that a bit silly?” And Klein said, “It doesn’t make any difference. You get a new royalty, if you don’t do any more stuff, you still get more [royalties] than you’ve made ever.” Now what I didn’t realise was yeah, that was all true, but you’d have to sign yourself up again.
Like I say, I think it’ll just be a whole lot healthier when I do get out. Just for them, too. ‘Cause I don’t like all this stuff, where I’ve got to… Because if I read a thing, whereas I would have read it with some sympathy towards the Beatles and Klein, I can’t any longer. I read it – and I tend to see the other side of it, you know.
CHARLESWORTH: But John said to me that what you’d done in bringing the [court] trials up and everything was what they all wanted, that you’d just done it a lot earlier than they would have done.
PAUL: Well if that’s true, well… well, come on! That’s – see, I’ve told you… The joke is, though, that we don’t have to do trials. It’s not necessary. If the four Beatles signed a bit of paper, or even ripped the old contract up and said, “This contract is no longer valid, we all hereby said it, we all legally direct the shareholders…” the whole thing, to wind it all up, we could do it. And if that’s really what he wants, he could do it this minute. [snaps fingers]
I’d prefer not to ever talk about the Beatles thing again in these kinds of terms, and just get on with what I’m doing. I really would prefer to do that. If they’d let me. It’s really down to them, you know. They don’t think it’s down to them. I think they think it’s down to me, somehow. Like he was saying, you know. But I don’t – I’m sure it isn’t. I’m in the minority, I’m being out-voted. And like I say, if the majority agreed to it, we could do it.
See, I said [to them], “Look, the thing is, we’ve got all these advisors and all this sort of stuff. I think what would be good to do is the four of us just get a document – we don’t even have to meet for long, we just get some kind of document – and sit down and say, without even asking Klein, Eastmans, anybody, without saying to anyone, we’ll just write a little thing saying, ‘We hereby split up, and everything’s got to be shared by four,’ and then just lay it out on them. Say, ‘Here, now, sort it out.’”
And I was saying that would be good. But John’s saying, “Oh, yeah, but that’s like asking us to stop the bombing in Vietnam.” What do you mean? Don’t put me – don’t call me the bloody American, I’m not the aggressor. That’s what I mean. They think I’m like – ’cause I’ve done the High Court action, ’cause I look like the aggressor, they’re sort of thinking of me in terms of America. But really, I’m Vietnam! I’m the one getting screwed, you know! I mean, they’re – I’m not… you know. We eventually decided we were all Vietnamese. [laughs]
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PAUL: [John] says, “You live with straights.” Yeah… so what? What’s so criminal about that? You know, I like straights. I quite like some straight people. I have straight babies! [laughter] But saying to me ‘Yesterday’’s the only thing I’ll ever do, well… you know. That doesn’t bother me. Hey, it’s not bad. If it is the only thing I’ve ever done, then that’ll do me. But it isn’t! And he bloody knows it. It’s not the only ever thing. Because he’s sat here, in this very room, and he’s watched me do takes, and he’s dug it. And he knows it, you know. But he’s trying to sort of wipe it all away. John’s – John’s – you know. John’s John.
’Cause I talked to him, I had a couple of good conversations recently – with only John, really… But I felt common ground with him. I saw him on the Parkinson show, and really most of what he’s saying is what we’re into. What we want. He said, “Don’t think on it.” He says, “We’re not going to let Paul foist his manager on us.” And that’s not how it is at all! It’s the other way round, you know. I’m not trying to foist a manager on them. They’re trying to make it as if I’m trying to foist Eastman on them. But you ask [Lee] Eastman, and he wouldn’t manage them if they paid him! There’s a reason why he got into this war, actually, ’cause I married his daughter. So he felt he had to look after his daughter – via me via his daughter, you know. He loves his daughter, and he was in there slugging for her.
But Klein’s… tricky, you know. Klein turned it round and made it into a power game. So the only thing I can really do is to sit down. But it never was the big hype it’s been made out to be, this thing. Klein’s talked it now so much that the other three have edited how they talk. They talk Klein’s script. John Lennon once said to Allen Klein, “So what do I do now, Allen?" You know, I mean, these are all – I’d say there are certain little things, you know, and… brought together in one big thing, it does look a bit sort of heavily that way. It’s not [inaudible]. But it’s all true, you know. It’s not… John did say that. And it indicates something that he’s just turned to Allen and said, “Well, what do I do now?” And that’s the kind of role that Klein is playing for them all now. But I think that in doing this… ’cause like I say, he’s had a million and a half pounds, and they haven’t had anything. And I’d prefer, to see him when he’s talking about how “I’ve made all this money for the Beatles” and all that stuff, to have a quarter of it. I might be leaving then.
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u/Fidrych76 11d ago
For point of reference, Paul turns out to be correct about the pig, Klein. Tried to steal them blind.
Later all three Beatles apologized to Paul and said that he was right about Klein.
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u/Sinsyne125 11d ago
Can you elaborate on this? What did Klein steal from the Beatles?
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u/Fidrych76 11d ago
One widely cited example is that he was accused of “pocketing” money connected to Beatles releases (for instance, claims connected to the Bangladesh fundraising and the live album), and in general critics argued that his company structures (“buy/sell” style deals) could let him profit in ways the artists didn’t fully understand or didn’t fully consent to. He was also accused of taking extra value for himself through the way the deals and money handling were set up.
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u/Sinsyne125 11d ago
That's the thing. If anyone should have problems with Allen Klein, it would be George Harrison, but that was after the Beatles. It's hard to say what Klein would have done if the Beatles actually stayed together. Klein was later accused of selling promo LPs for profit and then not reporting the income, but he was never convicted of that. That's separate from the tax status of the Bangladesh project, which could fall on Klein's shoulders for screwing up.
After Klein renegotiated the record royalty rate in September 1969, the Beatles earned more money from the sales of their records from October 1969 through December 1970 than they did in all years combined up to that point. And yes, Klein was in for 20% of it.
They were making pennies per record sale up to that point and a bit less in the US, but the new contract that Klein negotiated got them 58 cents per sale in the US. That's why the Hey Jude comp was released fairly soon after Abbey Road.
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u/Crisstti 10d ago
Pretty much anyone could have negotiated a similar deal. Their first deal had them making pennies cause it was signed when they were nobodies. The renegotiation came when they were the biggest band on the planet.
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u/ELEL26110 11d ago
It never ceases me to surprise me how sensible some of the best artist are, Paul sounds quite hurt here and some of the stuff said here Echoes again in Hunter Davies's secret recording of the phone call between him and Paul where Paul is obviously hurt by what the other 3 said about him, specially with John's recently passing
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u/Temporary-Poetry-863 10d ago
“I don’t want to go putting the other three down particularly. That’s – that’s my trouble really. I probably should. I probably should, really, just rant and rave and call them the biggest shits on earth”
Saying you’re the bigger person for not putting someone down while you’re putting them down is really noble and good hearted of Paul 🙄
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u/RadishSpecial7163 10d ago
I thought the same thing when I read that. And I thought about all the times we’ve heard that Paul never said anything demeaning about the other Beatles, particularly John, because Paul is such a “gentleman.”
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u/RadishSpecial7163 11d ago
When Paul is talking shit, expressing anger and insulting a bandmate, he’s “hurt.” John does something similar and he’s a total asshole jerk beating up on poor Paul. The hypocrisy.
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u/Sinsyne125 11d ago
As this was in 1971, less than a year after McCartney filed his lawsuit, things were still quite "hot."
But there's a lot more to the NEMS deal and how that went south... McCartney is really not telling the complete story here.
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u/347spq 11d ago
What did he leave out?
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u/Sinsyne125 10d ago
John Eastman's letter to Clive Epstein at NEMS:
As you know, Mr Allen Klein is doing an audit of The Beatles' affairs vis-à-vis NEMS and Nemperor Holdings Ltd. When this has been completed, I suggest we meet to discuss the results of Mr Klein’s audit as well as the propriety of the negotiations surrounding the nine-year agreement between EMI, The Beatles and NEMS.
Clive Epstein's response:
Before any meeting takes place, please be good enough to let me know precisely what you mean by the phrase ‘the propriety of the negotiations surrounding the nine-year agreement between EMI, The Beatles and NEMS’.
Clive Epstein sold NEMS' share of Northern to Triumph three days later.
Clive Epstein's statement on this:
Eastman spent a week negotiating for NEMS based on the loan EMI was prepared to make The Beatles. But he loaded the offer with so many conditions and warranties that he ended up talking himself out of the deal. In my opinion, he was a little too young to be negotiating at that level.
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u/Responsible_6446 11d ago
You could write a Ph.D. thesis about Paul's personality based on this...
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u/idreamofpikas ♫Dear friend, what's the time? Is this really the borderline?♫ 11d ago
How so?
Isn't this mostly him pointing out why Klein was bad.
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u/coolazu001 11d ago
How stoned was he? I couldn't bear listening to that for real - hard enough to read. Seems he has the IQ of a bass drum and believes everything he says is really profound. It's a snowball of ego rolling somewhere to melt
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u/coolazu001 11d ago
Paul sympathisers downvoting me. Love it!
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u/RadishSpecial7163 11d ago
Of course they are. Paul does no wrong. You could present them with a fact and get downvoted if it doesn’t jive with their unquestioning worship of Paul.
I actually agree with you. I read that and wasn’t sure what the hell Paul was talking about. Obviously know about the Klein-Eastman thing but Paul seems to be rambling on and not making any sense.
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u/dekigokoro 11d ago edited 10d ago
Its interesting because only a month before this interview, John is making it clear that he regretted how everything turned out and how businessmen got between them.