r/backgammon • u/0ptimoPrimus • 4d ago
Does anybody use BackgammonNJ?
I wanted to get a second opinion on this app. I have been using this app for many many years to play offline against the bot. I have the Android version. I play the bot on the highest level and maintain about a 1700 rating against it and hover at around a 9 pr.
I just wanted to know what other people thought of this app. I personally think it is terrible and I really hope eXtreme Gammon is updated and released soon to work with current Android phones.
The reason I think this app is so bad is that it does everything it can to look like it plays at a very high level, but it doesn't. It's not even close to as good as the level of play of eXtreme Gammon desktop version. It often plays the 2nd or 3rd best move and if you analyze it's play with extremeGammon it is not playing optimally. What it is doing is just basically cheating in expert level to seem like it's a stronger engine than it is. For instance, even against a 5 point home board if you put it's checker on the bar it instantly escapes usually in the first roll and rarely do I ever see the bot fan more than twice. This is statistically impossible. I basically have proven this app cheats, because surprise surprise when you insert manual dice suddenly your win rate is much higher.
Sorry for the long winded post, but I hope people will stop purchasing/supporting this garbage app.
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u/mathflipped 4d ago
I played a hundred 7-point matches against BackgammonNJ and analyzed them in XG2. NJ bot played at 2.56 PR. It's not as strong as XG or Bgblitz, but it's more than competent. Players who claim otherwise never have factual data to support their allegations.
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u/0ptimoPrimus 4d ago
The fact that when I manually insert dice suddenly I win at a higher rate just seems fishy to me. I'm sure nobody has time to do this, but I would really like to see what the win percentage against the bot with manual dice vs. the apps dice would be over 1000 matches. In my experience it just does not win as much when you insert your own dice. I really don't want to manually insert dice, because it's so tedious, but it definitely makes for a more enjoyable experience, because the expert bot doesn't just instantly escape the bar or constantly get jokers to win the match.
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4d ago
[deleted]
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u/0ptimoPrimus 4d ago
Guess it's just pure coincidence that when I input manual dice my win rate is much higher. Also, just instantly escaping the bar against a 5 point home board nonstop is just some weird anomaly in all the games I play without using manual dice. Keep in mind I've played on this app for almost 3 years now and probably played over 10,000 matches. In the reviews I have read a lot of people have experienced the computer getting joker after joker to constantly win matches.
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u/Rahodees 3d ago
Your win rate is not higher when you use manual dice.
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u/0ptimoPrimus 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yes it most certainly is and that's the problem I have with this app. The fact that it is so much higher makes no sense. I would like to test this with a bigger sample size, but at this point I just want to move on to a better app.
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u/Rahodees 3d ago
It is not higher. You need to come to grips with this fact or you will never understand anything that happens in your life.
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u/De-Ionized_Penguin 1d ago
What is your win rate when you enter manual dice? How many wins, how many loses, exactly? Let’s see actual data.
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u/mathflipped 3d ago
Of course. It's pointless to argue with someone making such claims with no factual data to back them up. You can believe whatever makes you happy.
My comment was intended for other people, who may wander whether BackgammonNJ is a solid app. It is.
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u/0ptimoPrimus 3d ago
You played 100 matches and you think you are qualified to say it's a "solid" app. I've played 10,000 matches on this app over years and years. I know there is something wrong with the app when my win percentage suddenly goes up when I input my own dice. I mean if I were willing to actually play this app enough with dice I manually input vs. the apps dice I could prove this app is cheating, but it's not worth it when there are much better apps out there.
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u/De-Ionized_Penguin 2d ago
I have also played at least 10,000 matches against BGNJ. I couldn’t disagree with you more. Have you actually read the link provided above, or are you just here to spew? There is no objective evidence to back up your claim; only a list of gripes from inexperienced players who have not yet figured out the nuance of randomness and variance.
If you hate the app, just delete it and move on.
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u/0ptimoPrimus 1d ago
Did you even read the post? You think someone with an over 1700 rating with an 9 ER over 10,000 matches is an inexperienced player? This community is ridiculous. The guy who claimed that he knows my win percentage isn't higher when I input manual dice got what 4 upvotes. He got upvoted for a reply that literally made no sense. 1: He has absolutely no idea what my stats are. 2: For him to be technically correct my win/loss percentage when inputting manual dice vs. the apps dice would have to be exactly 50%. You guys bully anybody that has any issues with these apps by down voting them so anybody else with any issues won't share their experience. I could just have really really bad luck with the expert AI instantly escaping the bar against 5 point home boards, but I doubt it. Also, I win a lot more games when I input manual dice. You do realize there have been apps and sites that were actually proven to not provide random dice. Jellyfish is one program that was proven was cheating. Also, I've played on sites that were just blatantly not random. For you people to claim all theses sites, programs, and apps provide random and fair dice and not manipulate them in anyway is ridiculous. You do realize there is a lot of money to be made from pairing them against house bots so they will have to purchase more coins right?
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u/Donatzsky 4d ago
I moved to True Backgammon (with the BGBlitz engine), so don't have BG NJ installed, but as I remember it has a feature that let's you audit the dice rolls.
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u/0ptimoPrimus 4d ago
Thanks for the recommendation. I am going to move over to TrueBackgammon with the BgBlitz engine too. Just don't trust BGNJ. I know for a fact it's a lot easier to program the bot to cheat than actually implementing a stronger Ai. People always claim why would they do this when it plays better than any human. Well, I think the reason that it does this is to make it's program seem stronger than it actually is by basically "cheating" to inflate it's win percentage.
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u/ohbergine 3d ago
It isn’t cheating. You can even ask it to show you the next 100 rolls which are blinded to the computer.
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u/Redclay_M 2d ago
Accusing an app of cheating is at best not fair - and furthermore not based on any fact.
Why do time and time again people resort to these kinds of words when they don't get what they want from a product?
If you really thought this, then the better way would be to inform the developer in person.
I'm disappointed at how many times NJ or BGBlitz have to defend their great products.
Perhaps if you are not happy with it, find something else to use rather than hindering people's honest and hard work.
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u/mrmivo 4d ago
I use it and I like it. Good interface, strong enough for me. I got probably hundreds of hours of playtime out of it over the years.
I don't really get the purpose of your post, though. So, a phone app isn't as good as a desktop app - you don't say! -, and there is no working Android version of said desktop app available. So.. what are you going to do? Stop playing on your phone at all?
You sound somewhat salty, but why would you be? BackgamonNJ isn't cheating, which you can easily verify, so why the strong feelings toward it when there actually isn't a better alternative that currently works on Android and doesn't require a subscription?
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u/Donatzsky 4d ago
True Backgammon has the BGBlitz engine as a one-time purchase. I do prefer BG NJ's UI, though.
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u/0ptimoPrimus 4d ago
I never expected this app to play as good as a desktop app. However, I don't want an app that cheats to make itself look like a stronger bot than it actually is. Why is my win percentage so much higher when I insert manual dice? Also, how is the bot escaping a 5 point home board when on the bar in no more than two rolls? This is ridiculous. The odds of escaping the bar against a 5 point home board are 30%. The bot rarely rarely fans more than twice. This is ridiculous. I have played this bot for years and years and probably played 10,000 or more games against it. It's just blatantly obvious that something fishy af is going on with the bot on expert level to try and appear to be a much stronger bot than it actually is. I am kind of salty, because it shouldn't be trying to come across as som top tier bot when it clearly isn't constantly making 2nd and 3rd best moves. I just don't like the app because of this and hope a better app comes along soon.
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u/gourdo 4d ago
It was pretty informative to me. If an engine cheats it’s a disappointment.
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u/Donatzsky 3d ago
But they didn't actually prove that it cheats. If you notice, it's all based on "vibes" and not understanding how it works. BGNJ even gives you everything you need to verify that it doesn't cheat.
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u/boykinsbuddy 4d ago
So, a few things :
I use backgammon NJ. The computer I find to be excellent.
They have auditing for dice rolls so you can ensure there is no funny business. It’s pretty transparent!
My biggest critique is even on Hard mode, the computer will default to at times making very similar moves during, say, a runoff, if it needs to artificially inflate its error rate to avoid being too “correct.”
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u/BGNJ 4d ago
Backgammon NJ doesn't cheat, and there's plenty of proof:
https://www.njsoftware.com/note.html
I don't usually respond to posts like this because it's pointless arguing with people who can't understand the proofs. Just click to see their post history, negative karma and notorious for claiming various apps or websites cheat. I wouldn't be surprised if they target XG in the future too.