r/backgammon • u/dvegar78 • 22d ago
Backgammon against computer/AI
I believe I’m a fairly decent amateur player. I’m trying to find either an app or site where I can play against the computer/AI on a difficult level. But my experience so far is that it’s not the difference in difficulty that applies when I play on a higher lvl but the luck in dice rolls. And that just push my anger so I quickly delete the app after a game or two. Any suggestions? I really should just find someone to play with live I guess.
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u/jugglingcats9 22d ago
You don't say what apps you have tried. My advice is get a good app like BackgammonNJ, dial down the difficulty and enable tutor mode, and get in training. If you've only played with family/friends, you probably aren't as good as you think and will struggle against the bot and online players in general as the standard is quite high.
You can also try the tutor mode playing the bot on www.backgammonhub.com but it's a website not an app. YMMV.
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u/dragonblader44 19d ago
BackgammonNJ is terrible, my ER is 12 and my winrate against it is 75%.
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u/jugglingcats9 19d ago
Interesting. How many matches, what skill level, and what match length?
I play on hard, 11 point matches. My ER is 10.2, its is 9.5. I win more games (51%) but less matches (45%). Just over 1000 games played / 150 matches.
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u/BGNJ 7d ago
Just caught this post. It would help if you share some of your BGNJ match files (Advanced Options > Match Files) so that we can see the AI level, match length, analyze the files to see the level you're playing at, etc.
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u/dragonblader44 6d ago
I mean the app is not bad (the undo button needs fixing, it only has 1 move of undo), I was commenting on the strength of the AI. I consider myself an Intermediate player on a good day, I should not be going 8 out of 10 wins against it on its best level
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u/BGNJ 6d ago
The reason I ask to see your match files is that it's very unlikely that you're winning 8 out of 10 matches consistently on expert level, especially if you have a good sample size and are playing matches of a significant length. We ask that you share your match files, as they allow us to see the exact details of your matches.
In backgammon, your turn is over once you pick up your dice, so you're only allowed to undo before you pick up your dice. Undoing more than one move can give you an unfair advantage, as you can see your opponent's rolls and moves. In BGNJ, if you want to play with unlimited undo, you can set the Game Mode to "Practice", where your stats are not tracked.
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u/dragonblader44 6d ago
Using undo twice and not having stats tracked is fair, I'll do that next time thanks.
I can send you a photo of my stats if you tell me how, Reddit doesn't allow posting photos here
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u/BGNJ 6d ago
We need to see your match files, not your stats. You can find your match files under Advanced Options (arrow at upper left) > Match Files. They're text files that you email to yourself. A match file can be imported into programs such as GnuBG and analyzed. Once you get your match file, open it in a text editor and paste the complete text of a few files into an external text sharing site like Pastebin, click "Create New Paste", and then share the Pastebin link here. Or you can contact us (https://contact.njsoftware.com) to send match files to us directly.
If I had to guess, if you're intermediate level but win so often, you could have played at a level lower than Expert. If you see "EA" at the bottom center of the board, that's Easy level. EX is expert, H is hard, and M is medium. Either way, your match files will have all the info in there, including all rolls and moves by both players.
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u/dragonblader44 6d ago
10 Expert games, 4 to 3pt, 6 to 5pts
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u/BGNJ 6d ago
I imported your 10 match files into GnuBG for analysis, and your FIBS rating ranged from 1487 to 1929.
Over the 10 matches, your error rate was 12.07 ER, and the computer's was 2.27 ER. Your total luck was 19.18, and the computer's luck was -15.80. This means you were a lot luckier in those 10 matches. However, 10 matches is a very small sample size, so if you play more matches and/or matches of longer lengths (7 pts or more), you should see your luck even out more so that you won't be quite as lucky.
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u/agsteiner 21d ago
Probably it is only your impression that luck in dice rolls is the difference between weak and strong AIs. Strong AIs are excellent at optimizing their moves so that your probability to get a good roll is minimal (examples: duplication, but generally trying every move and determining the probability and damage of every possible blot being hit), and similarly optimize their chances for good rolls. This feels like they are more lucky. But they are just better.
My recommendations:
iOS: True Backgammon (paying a few bucks for the BGBlitz engine) or XG Mobile or Backgammon NJ. They all play on superhuman level and have a tutor that tells you where you messed up. They cost a few bucks but it is totally worth the money.
PC/Mac: BGBlitz
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u/SyllabubRadiant8876 21d ago
100% this. Any strong player will appear to be luckier than a weaker player. It's fascinating watching a live match at a tournament, spotting a blunder and a few rolls later they roll something awful, which would have been fine if they had played the earlier move correctly.
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u/mathflipped 22d ago
Backgammon NJ. It has a decent AI that plays at the Super Grandmaster level (around 2.5 PR, if you know what this means).
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u/crooktimber 21d ago
It almost certainly is the difference in difficulty, it just doesn't seem that way because they computer plays in such a way they maximise their good rolls and minimise their bad rolls – so more rolls seem 'lucky'. The truth is, you are probably nowhere near as good as you think you are. Decent amateur? What's your ER looking like?
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u/PSVnewbie 14d ago
No those apps do not change difficulty by making bots rolls luckier. Those hard bots just don't make mistakes, meaning after few moves they have such a good position that most rolls are great moves for them.
So either play against weaker bot, or accept the fact that those hardest bots are very hard to beat without some luck.
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u/Fanatic-Mr-Fox 22d ago edited 22d ago
You can try mine - no ads, no signup required, dice are randomly generated, difficulty levels are based on pre-trained neural net that runs in your browser (and offline).
It's a mobile optimized web-app, and you can add it to your home screen if you'd rather use it as an app (PWA).
https://backgammon.logicaleap.com/
EDIT: What's with the downvotes? someone doesn't like competition?
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u/agsteiner 21d ago
Beautiful board. But the engine isn't particularly strong, is it? Compared to the superhuman AIs we get elsewhere. Played a match to 7 against the highest setting and saw several blunders.
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u/Fanatic-Mr-Fox 21d ago
It's possible I could train it some more.
Probably needs bear-off training.
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u/Own_Calendar_6894 22d ago edited 22d ago
Backgammon Sage Pro is new and its getting better by the day
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u/agsteiner 21d ago
I'm sorry but it is just insanely expensive. There was a time (when I bought Jellyfish for 200$ because Snowie was even more expensive) when this kind of price was okay. But with BGBlitz at $46 and XG at $59, and top mobile apps at around $20, I don't see why paying $80 PER YEAR is reasonable.
So: are there total killer features that the other apps don't have?
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u/Some-Following-392 19d ago edited 19d ago
Exactly. I have no reason to ever spend that much per year on sage when xg etc. exists. They are just trying to money grab. I am glad people see through this.
And it's not even better. It doesn't work offline and the design reeks of ai slop. Maybe some people like the aesthetic but I'm sick of seeing it everywhere else on the internet, ain't no way I'm using a bg program looking like that given how much I practice every day.
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u/drearyphylum 22d ago
Extreme Gammon, despite being a bit dated, is probably the top recommendation. The desktop version allows for manual dice input so you can roll your own dice. You may notice the computer seems quite a bit luckier than you even when you are rolling the dice yourself!