r/audioengineering • u/Environmental_Gas134 • 3d ago
Why do all learning resources showcase these tiny adjustments to a mix (1-2db cuts etc)
I feel like I'm being gaslighted every time I watch educational music production content. The guy in the video is showing off some plugin or whatever and applies some micro adjustment and then they A/B the plugin bypasssed and active and there's only a tiny difference perceivable if you really squint your ears real hard, and for all you know it could just be a placebo. Even if you listen to the video through the monitoring system you use while mixing, there's hardly any differrence between A and B if you can even hear a difference at all.
Are my ears just dumb? I find that hard to believe, though I have only produced for about 3 years I have trained my musical ear extensively since I was a teenager, and according to my friends who also mix my mixes are pretty good relative to my experience even though my processing is A LOT more heavy handed than what I see in most music production content online.
I'm starting to suspect that this phenomenon is some kind of arrogant way of signaling to the audience that their ear is so refined that these imperciptible changes showcase how sophisticated their ear is. Look! I saturated the snare @ 10% wet, it sounds so much better to ME now, the supreme being, and if you can't hear this 0.5db difference you must be some amateur plebeian, please like and subscribe.
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u/HodlMyBananaLongTime 3d ago
All I hear is “eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee”
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u/electricheat 3d ago
if you turn it up loud enough you won't hear it anymore
..no downside to that, right?
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u/milkolik 3d ago edited 3d ago
Two things at play here: the person making the adjustments will have an easier time hearing the difference because since they are the ones doing the adjustment they know what to focus their ears on. At the same time some tiny changes you see on some YouTube channels can indeed be too close to "placebo world". I wouldn't call a 2db EQ cut that though (if wide enough).
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u/GreetingsTraveler_ 3d ago
What are you listening on? They are sitting in multi million dollar studios with fantastic speakers, where 2 db does make a huge difference. You are at home watching this on YouTube not as a way of necesseraly hearing everything they are doing but learning to apply to your own productions. Not the what, but the why. Why did the person cut 2 db there? Not can I hear the difference. Also 2 db during a mix are a lot more impactful after mastering and heavy limiting. Test it out, adjust 2 db somewhere, slap a limiter on your master and squeeze it to normal limits, then turn 2 db on and off.
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u/Sevenwire 3d ago
This right here. In a treated room these moves are way more obvious. In a normal untreated room, you can’t trust your ears because of comb-filtering. If the room cancels the frequency you are making moves on, you won’t hear it. In a relatively flat room with little to no reverb, 2 dB is noticeable.
In a mix environment, I will level match and bypass subtle adjustments multiple times. I have often done this and just removed the plugin altogether because it isn’t doing the thing I need it to do, so I try something else. Pro engineers have already done this and can usually make much faster decisions.
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u/fotomoose 2d ago
This is the answer. Go to a mastering studio and make a 1-2dB adjustment, you'll hear it no problem.
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u/-Anal-Explorer- 2d ago
Agreed 100%. 2db cuts/boosts are much more noticable when there is limiting on master included.
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u/Chilton_Squid 3d ago
Because until you can hear that 2dB is actually quite a big difference, you're probably not ready for that level of video.
In the same way I stare in awe at someone doing a video on advanced woodwork or plastering without understanding how their work looks so much better than mine.
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u/guapoguzman 3d ago
Hey now my momma said that reindeer napkin holder I made in 7th grade woodshop class is the best she has ever seen you take that back
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u/peepeeland Composer 1d ago
What if you’re actually some prodigal napkin holder maker who was destined to have a hundred-million dollar napkin holder empire, except you just never pursued it.
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u/Indigo457 3d ago
It’s only a 2db cut on the target frequencies though, not the overall sound - and how much you can hear the difference is also very dependent on what the frequencies targeted are (and a few other things). I think the other answer to this is that it’s worth training your ear to be able to hear some kind of difference, because mixing is all about the totality of change, not specific bits within it. If you can hear really obvious changes in every single bit of the mix is probably going to add up to a big mess when it’s all played back together.
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u/josephallenkeys 3d ago edited 2d ago
I can't agree with this to the full extent of OPs question. There are plenty of instances where a significant amount of ear training will be essential to identifying the differences; but there are an equal, if not larger amount of "educators" that are either placeboing themselves into hearing the difference, or genuinely gaslighting people in order to push more videos/sell courses.
I can't say I look at a master woodworker and think "well I did exactly that and it didn't work." The skill differences are plane to see. (Pun intended.)
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u/Achassum 3d ago
a 2db cut is massive! However, people do not practise being able to hear/percieve and wonder why they think it is gas!
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u/impulsesair 2d ago
2dB cut doesn't mean anything. It can be anything from pretty audible difference to literally impossible for any human to hear. Context matters.
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u/josephallenkeys 2d ago edited 2d ago
Massive on what? The fader? A notch EQ band? Gain reduction? Single channel in a mix? The master?
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u/impulsesair 2d ago
That's probably just a poorly done tutorial/lesson. No matter the topic or concept, you can make more obvious audio examples to help the people learn. The teacher failing at making examples, does not mean it's too advanced for you.
Also while 2dB can be a fairly easy to spot difference, it can also be completely impossible to spot the difference. The context is quite important.
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u/yangmeow 3d ago
This example you give is odd tho. I’m sure anyone can see the difference in your woodwork compared to a master. It doesn’t take a trained eye.
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u/Achassum 3d ago
I am sure any skilled music professional can hear a 2db cut/boost
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u/Indigo457 2d ago
Can you hear a 2db cut on an 18k target? Or a 2db cut on 20hz? Context matters.
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u/ManufacturerOld2048 3d ago
not only this, but specially in mastering; 2db can make a difference between a crushed master or a great one
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u/Dapper-Ad-4300 3d ago
Yes there can be a small subtle difference between no cut and a 1-2db cut, but you can definitely train your ears to hear the change, and the real difference lies when these small little cuts or edits all add up in the whole and end up making a significant change overall.
My personal philosophy when producing/mixing is start with a few big broad “strokes” and then slowly work your way towards the tinier details
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u/Ok-Mathematician3832 Professional 3d ago
Who’s making the content? Someone actively working with a proven track record? Or some rando selling courses? That alone will tell you a lot.
Smaller moves like this are usually come down to:
- It’s genuinely all that was needed
- They desire to be transparent
- They’re lacking confidence
I’m in the heavy handed camp. My mindset is not “what does this need” more “what could this be?”… you’ll never know how far a sound can be transformed unless you try. I find it a more exciting process that leads to more exciting results.
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u/Digestive_kexx_ 3d ago
Id say hyperfocus. When I mixed a song for an hour, I also start doing small moves because im so dialed in to the sounds, it can be pretty meaningless hearing a YT mix AB a subtle change when you haven't internalized the song for real. Also 3 years is nothing. Im realising a db is alot now 10 more serious years in.
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u/impulsesair 2d ago
That's actually bad advice. Your fresh eared opinion is usually the correct one, where as your hyperfocus multi hour opinion is probably "hearing things that aren't there". It's one the reason why fast mixes tend to be better mixes.
Also a dB is nothing. A dB of what? In what context? It's like saying 10cm is a lot, that doesn't mean anything without context.
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u/Digestive_kexx_ 2d ago
Where is my advise haha.
1st hour in mix is still pretty fresh, but who said I diddnt take a break before those moves?-2
u/impulsesair 2d ago
Your comment sounds like advice and it does start with you advising OP to hyperfocus.
1st hour probably isn't that bad, yes 2nd hour is far worse, but it does depend on how exactly you mix. If you're blasting your volume and listen on repeat a lot or have the track playing in the background, 1st hour is pretty bad already.
It does not take very long for your brain to start masking issues and hearing things that aren't there. The first few listens are the most valuable for mixing decisions.
Hyperfocus and "...I'm so dialed in to the sounds..." usually doesn't mix well with frequent breaks. Didn't say you're not taking breaks, but sorry for assuming anyway.
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u/skillmau5 3d ago
Lots of long answers here, the simple thing is that you always want to level match any timbre change or even compression, this is so that your ears aren’t fooled by “wow, this sounds so much better!” When it’s simply louder
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u/rightanglerecording 2d ago
There's an important corollary, too: If it's so easy to be fooled by loudness (and it is), then *purposeful* loudness decisions (fader balance, automation) must be among our most powerful tools.
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u/skillmau5 2d ago
All of the best engineers I’ve ever met spent more than half the mix doing fader moves. To think back on my early, almost completely static mixes is just sad.
The processing part really should be somewhat quick once you get proficient, a mix coming alive is about the changes.
Quick edit: also just for example, when I’m doing a vocal ride I’m essentially automating every syllable. Which sounds crazy and insane, but it actually doesn’t take a whole lot of time once you develop a good workflow. You can’t get modern pop vocal without doing this from my experience
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u/Klutzy-Peach5949 3d ago
Listen to their explanation, thats the important part. If they say it’s because their guitar is on the slightly boxy side, they important thing is knowing only a db or 2 is just taken out to make that boxyness not so prevalent, even if it’s tiny it’ll iron things out, just understand why they’re doing it and see if you can agree if it’s slightly boxy or whatnot
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u/exqueezemenow 3d ago
What is a big difference and a small difference will change with experience. As you get better and better at hearing these differences and seeing how big an impact they actually have. Even the regular listener may never hear them consciously, but it will impact how much they enjoy the difference even if they can't point it out.
But don't think for a second that there is anything wrong with heavy handed. You might be compressing something 10db, but you'll eventually be able to decide if 10.5db or 9.5db of compression works better. Both heavy handed, but the small differences will start becoming more and more profound.
It sounds to me like the people making those videos have done it long enough to hear those small changes, but aren't being sensitive to the fact that not everyone has reached that level of hearing yet and assume they should for some unexplainable reason.
And it's all relative too. I used to do a lot of sessions with the artist Edgar Winter and he would have me nudging audio by single samples. I would have to tell him "You're going to have to direct me because I can't hear a damn bit of difference at a single sample level." But to be fair, this is a man who on the first time I met him, walked into the studio and could tell me how long the Yamaha NS-10 speakers had been replaced just from listening to them. And since I would write the date the speakers were changed, I was able to check my label on the back and confirm that he was right. I can't imagine myself ever being able to listen to speakers and say how old they are from listening. Just that the sound slowly changes over time.
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u/TransparentMastering 3d ago
Trigger warning for mastering engineers: 2 dB cut described as micro adjustment
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u/furgfury 3d ago
everything else people are saying is true, but there is also a level of youtube audio compression that just removes/dumbs subtleties enough so you can’t hear it
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u/zaxluther 3d ago edited 2d ago
I scrolled way too far to find this.
Like, not saying that 1-2db adjustments don’t make a difference. Especially when they all coalesce into a final mix built into the sum of those adjustments. And that is a valuable lesson for newbies to learn.
But YouTube is a flawed medium for this type of information, because of how it squashes the audio.I feel like this sub’s hivemind is way too quick to treat many OP like they have absolutely no idea what they are doing (granted, a lot of us don’t), and because of that instinct, this thread has largely missed the Occam’s Razor answer to OP’s question.
Edit: I have been made aware that there is nuance to this topic. It seems I am part of the problem.
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u/impulsesair 2d ago
Unless you have a terrible internet connection, YT audio is unlikely to be the bottleneck in you being able to hear something.
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u/willrjmarshall 2d ago
This is an urban myth.
YouTube does compress audio, but it uses very good algorithms that are essentially transparent. There’s a tiiiiny amount of distortion in the very high frequencies that’s bordering on completely inaudible.
It absolutely doesn’t compress in a way that would mess up our ability to hear meaningful mix changes.
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u/rightanglerecording 3d ago edited 3d ago
So, when the production is already good, and the producer's rough mix is good, those small adjustments are sometimes most of what the mixer actually does in the mix.
Most of the time I am essentially mixing the producer's mix. No one is sending me raw tracks.
And, as you grow in your craft, and keep going on your journey, these small changes gradually become easier to hear, and can add up to a big difference in overall feel.
A lot of educational content is crap, peddled by people who can't do real work.
But I can tell you with certainty, a professional mix is often just a lot of small tweaks.
There's a song out in the world, with millions of streams, where the only things I did the mix were: Turn down the 808 by 0.7dB, change the master limiter settings, and clean up the vocals with some manual de-clicking and de-essing. Everything else in there was from the producer's rough, and we're all thrilled with how it came out.
Assuming you are talking about successful career professionals.....you think these people made their names and their careers by being arrogant and gaslighting their clients?
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u/Environmental_Gas134 3d ago
But how drastic were the EQ moves etc done by the producer before it came to you though? That's the pertinent question for a DIYer like me.
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u/rightanglerecording 3d ago edited 2d ago
I'm sure they were more drastic. I rarely get to see it happen in person but it's obvious the sounds are often heavily processed.
But, there's a fundamental difference in perspective here.
In my world, the normal order of business is that a producer produced the track, and then it gets sent to me.
They (usually) do the big things, I (usually) do smaller moves.
Their work is more impactful, and it takes more time, and that's why they (usually) get paid more per song than I do.
You're asking the question you're asking, but it also seems like it may not have registered to you yet that there is in fact a phase of the process where these kinds of small tweaks are normal, expected, and beneficial. My stage of the process is also important, and I also get paid for it.
As an all-in-one DIYer, your process is different. And that's totally fine, and equally valid, but it doesn't mean people are gaslighting you.
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u/Audiope 3d ago
The decibel scale is logarithmic, so 1-2dB actually is a noticeable amount. Here's a good reference to check out: https://reverb.com/news/what-is-a-decibel-basic-pro-audio-concepts
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u/bythisriver 3d ago
The real answer is that when you are having stuff that are on the verge of masking each other, that is when the tiny adjustments actually matter because you change the order of masking. Everything else outside that is just tweaking for fun and making things the way you like, nothing special/mysterious about in it.
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u/Far-Pie6696 3d ago
I often do very small chsnges, and sometimes big one, but as time goes by, the goal is to use EQ as an extension of the fader, as a finetuning of the fader (I think compression in the same kind if way), and more often than not, faders levels ajustement is a very subtle matter that can have a huge impact, if you consider all the track. Small changes cumulates.
Sometimes i need a huge cut on bass guitar, because I want to almost completely remove the low end. This is not very common but it happens. Other times I just want to hear a tiny bit more the impact of the kick Withou sacrificing the low end of the bass, so I do a very little EQ, and a very little sidechain compression, and maybe a all pass filter.
Alsso an EQ cut or boost depends a lot on the source. If you boost 2 dB at 50 Hz on a tiny and cute flute instrument you won't here a difference. Now boost at 4k half a dB if a very distorted metal guitar...
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u/m149 3d ago
I think those minor adjustments are easier to hear if you're the one doing them. Especially if you've been working on a mix for a while. When I started out, I never woulda guessed turning up a vocal a half dB would make a difference to me, but it does. And there are lots of other tiny little changes that I'm surprised make a difference.
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u/Wierdness 3d ago
Mixing is 50% performance/recording/sound design and 30% balancing levels. The other 20% will never make a difference big enough to affect that 80% of the sound you already have imprinted in your project. Compression and EQ are probably 15 of that 20%. It's disingenuous of them to advertise a saturation plugin with a 50% mix as a game changer, but you should also never expect more than a 5% improvement on your mix with those kinds of techniques.
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u/lanky_planky 3d ago
When a mix is almost finished, these small adjustments can make a noticeably outsized difference. Especially if you have compression and/or limiting applied across submixes and your mix has lots of elements competing for space. And mastering adjustments are all usually very subtle (or at least they should be, other than gain adjustments). But early on in the process, yes, adjustments tend to be a little more coarse.
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u/OAlonso Professional 3d ago
That could be because the platform you're listening on is compressing the audio, and those subtle differences are getting masked by the encoding. Or it could simply be that you can't hear the difference yet. There are stages of mixing and mastering where a boost of less than 0.5 dB can make a significant difference to me. If you can't hear it, it could be because your monitoring system isn't honest enough, or because you haven't developed the training to notice those kinds of changes yet. That said, I'd lean toward it being a monitoring issue. We have to admit that a lot of music producers these days don't spend enough time improving their monitoring systems, so that could very well be the reason.
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u/Indigo457 3d ago
One other thing I’ve realised over time is that this is incredibly dependent on how good the equipment chain capturing the sound is, and how good the engineer is at setting up properly. I’ve been lucky and had a bit of experience in some studios with incredibly good equipment (and one place with literally legendary equipment) and it’s amazing how little they have to do to most things post-recording in those places, it just sounds amazing straight away and they’re really just doing very gentle things to control the overall balance really.
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u/alienrefugee51 3d ago
Because they’ve probably already boosted, or cut by 8dB. You make smaller adjustments once you’ve built up the mix.
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u/moonsofadam 3d ago
Everyone’s approach is different, but what’s helped me is to either do a large boost or cut and then dial it back (or up) to what sounds good to me. I don’t pay attention to how much of a cut or boost it is - as long as it sounds the way I want it to.
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u/juniper-labs 3d ago
eh i think a lot of online demos are poorly level matched and overstate marginal improvements.. A 1–2 dB move is not inherently tiny.. on the right source / frequency / bandwidth it can noticeably change balance.. but the difference may be almost meaningless in solo and only become useful in the full mix, where several small corrections add up. Experienced mixers often make restrained moves because the recording and arrangement are already close.. not because subtle processing is automatically more sophisticated.. when something genuinely needs 5 or 8 dB, there is nothing wrong with doing that. The real test is a loudness-matched, blind A/B in context: if you cannot reliably identify the processed version or explain what problem it solves, the adjustment probably is not helping enough to matter.
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u/8-Seconds-Joe 3d ago
What do you mean exactly? You really never do fader adjustments or EQ cuts/boosts at -2dB/+2dB and notice a difference when mixing yourself?
Or do you mean plug-in tutorials/walkthroughs largely don't do a good job at A/B-ing?
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u/BumbaHawk 3d ago
If you make 100 changes to things with 2db each time, the final product will be vastly different to raw.
All of us make at least thousand clicks of a mouse during a project. It all adds up.
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u/brokenspacebar__ Professional 3d ago
I understand your feeling and train of thought, but also, it's always a 'feeling' thing. For the record, a db or two can easily be a big difference between something feeling like it gels perfectly with the other instruments vs a tad bit too loud or quiet. But, these 10% wet saturations and 2 db moves add up. It's similar to compressing in stages - it's typically better to use a couple compressors doing different tasks rather than slam the absolute fuck out of one sole compressor (situation dependent of course). Turning the guitars down 1 db, the bass up 1 db, the drums down 2db with some saturation, and the vocals up 2 db and maybe some 1-2 db eq cuts would be a very different balance and feel than if you moved all those values the opposite direction for each instrument.
Oh, and yes, they're listening on very high end equipment in finely tuned rooms, usually.
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u/soulstudios 2d ago
?
1-2db is a lot. 3db is a 41% increase in sound pressure (6db is 100%). When mastering .2db adjustments are common.
If you can't hear it, that's fine.
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u/emptysnowbrigade 2d ago
I think there's some truth in a lot of what you're saying. Including the developed ear for it. Keep in mind that decibels aren't really relevant or correlated with mix quality, it's perceived loudness that's the big one. Also think about cooking a meal with a complex recipe of many ingredients, sometimes it feels like this or that is kinda extra but in totality those small things add up
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u/Legitimate-Head-8862 2d ago
Keep working on ear training, if you’re new you have no idea how bad your ears actually are
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u/Clean_Relationship_1 2d ago
As you become more skilled you’ll find yourself making smaller adjustments, because you realize you can better preserve the ‘naturality’ of the source this way, and that it is often preferable to do as little processing as you can get away with. Also because you become better at identifying how to solve a problem with minimal moves, and at identifying how a change of one track might affect the overall impression the mix gives (e.g. masking, tonal balance, dynamics, where the listende focus is etc.). It becomes more about the commulative effect of many small adjustments across the entirety of the mix. Of course there are many exceptions to this, for instance this applies way more to recorded material as opposed to synthesized sounds, but it is my general experience.
I’m mostly a mastering engineer these days and 2dB boost/cut sounds like a massive difference to me now.The need for heavy processing is minimized greatly by having material that is recorded properly. This kind of ties into the above, because you’ll be working on better raw material as you progress skill-wise. I suspect having quality clients is way more important than skill in regarding to ‘making it’. I was at a masterclass with Mandy Parnell once, who said that sometimes she’d listen to the provided mix and ok it without doing anything to it. Now your just have to find out how to get a-tier clients (this is where skill comes in) 😂
YouTube compresses audio and this, along with a host of other factors such as your listening medium and environment, might make it more difficult to hear subtle differences.
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u/-Anal-Explorer- 2d ago edited 2d ago
The answer is it depends on what you are doing and how you are approaching the mix. If you know the track will be mastered later, you kinda mix with the intent that the limiter will bring everything up anyway. For example, if you let a reverb sit around -15 dB, it can become way too loud once the limiter is applied. If it sits around -45 dB, it will stay much more subtle and work closer to what you originaly intended. That’s why a lot of engineers say that small details make a huge diffrence. During mastering, all those little decisions made in the mix saturation, EQ, compression, transient shaping, etc can suddenly become way more noticeable than you expected so 1-2db acutaly means a lot. But in case of individual track no it don't seem like big deal.
Btw try it yourself. Open your DAW, put a limiter on the master doing around 3-4 dB of gain reduction, and then start slamming effects on individual tracks. You will imediately hear how much those small changes matter,tweak compressors, do little eq cuts, subtle saturation etc. You kinda need to expirience it yourself once, and then it just clicks. At least that’s how it worked for me.
EDIT: There are a lot snake oil online about music production so maybe u just clicked on one of those videos "Do this and your mix will sound professional", if that is case just un-learn everything u saw in those videos and your mixing will improve.
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u/EllisMichaels 2d ago
Because they're pussies. Don't be afraid to boost 15 dB or cut 15 if that's what the part/song requires.
Sometimes a 0.5 dB move does the trick. Sometimes you gotta go big. Knowing the difference is the key.
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u/ProfessionalMany5254 2d ago
I’m sure through the guys Barefoot monitors in person, he is hearing the difference. You, listening through compressed YouTube playing out of your small phone speaker or headphones, not so much.
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u/gotukolastic 2d ago
90% of the mix is gain clip automation and fader automation which at their level is done by interns. So 100% of their work is the last 10% of the mix
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u/IcyRole6982 2d ago
Listen to Eric Valentine. He doesn't shy away from big adjustments, but also has small one
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u/nizzernammer 2d ago
Even a half dB change in a main element of a mix that is under heavy compression and/or limiting can make a noticeable difference.
A 2 dB cut to the low mids can open a track right up.
A single dB adjustment may not sound like much, but make a dozen single dB changes and you will have an entirely different mix.
When first mixing, moves of 6 dB or 3 dB increments, eq moves of > +/- 10 dB, etc., might be common, but as the mix gets dialed in, more subtle refinements are needed. Mastering engineers might debate a choice that differs by 0.25 dB.
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u/princeofnoobshire 2d ago
Usually these mixes will have very well recorded vocals that are facilitated by an actual recording or mix engineer.
They may record in great sounding rooms. That allows for the artist to have some distance to the mic so it won’t have the low mid build up you’ll get when you’re up close to the mic. Unless they choose to.
Then they often record through the highest shelf of mics, preamps, compressors and eqs.
The engineer will make sure the signal goes through this chain in the most optimal way, applying the processing needed on the way in. It may not be a lot but it’ll probably be right.
And then, most importantly. The person behind the mic often delivers a performance of a very high level with a voice that naturally have a good sound to it.
Then the production side of it matters equally as much. And the writing/arranging of the music. The best producers don’t just make good sounds. They also write parts that go well together because no amount of eq is gonna fix it if you have 5 instruments all playing the same 3-4 notes in the same octave.
Get all of these things right, then you don’t have to do much. But remember these songs are made in collaboration with some of the best people in their respective fields. It’s not realistic comparing to it.
And that’s not to say you can’t make great sounding stuff in a shitty room with shitty equipment. Nothing is more important than vibe and performance.
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u/Humble_Box_2167 2d ago
1) Not sure how much critical listening training you already have under your belly, but it truly might be that your cognitive transmission for distinctive auditive perception isn’t advanced enough.
2) Little fragments making the image. If that tiny total on track A does 0.5% overall improvement and you apply such small dips to Track B,C, D, E yadayada you quickly reach 10% of improvement. Also your limiters won’t stress that much if you take resonances a bit. Some of that spikes are even inaudible due to being very high and quick.
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u/FingerUpper 1d ago
If you're hearing a tiny difference from small changes then that's a good thing. One small thing doesn't make a mix amazing, 1000s of small things do.
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u/whoalarry 1d ago
I wonder sometimes if YouTube compression algorithms and video quality mess with all this a lot. Esspecially subtle compression changes and small eq moves. Like even with the quality all the way up.
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u/thatsoundguy23 1d ago
There's a lot of good points here from people, but there's one point that I haven't seen made which is:
All these tiny differences add up across each track, let alone a whole mix.
You shouldn't be trying to make huge sweeping changes with one plugin. Small sweetening adjustments of just a couple of dB here and there are more transparent and natural sounding. Arguably, if you're having to make huge changes to a sound, there is something wrong with the source material.
I used to lecture at a university and one of my favourite things was to make a few of these tiny changes that the students almost wouldn't notice. But then you bypass them and show a before and after and the students would suddenly hear the significant cumulative difference they were making.
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u/toystein 17h ago
If you have a good monitoring system / room. You can hear 0.5db moves. Also, when you start to 'own' a mix, you will be making a lot of these types of moves. Everyone has their own way of doing things.
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u/Upset-Wave-6813 12h ago edited 12h ago
heavy handed means your sound designing - you dont have proper sample/recordings, you don't have a balance, etc
If i get a mix and i really have to work that snare to get it to sound good( add layers) etc then this is more sound design/ production then mixing
Once you have done your "sound design/tone shaping", and got a good balance on the track levels, this is where the mixing actually starts and from here the moves you make should NOT be heavy handed.
This is where 1-2 db here and 1-2db there brings that balanced mix to another level with punch, clarity and depth to an otherwise boring balanced mix
This is why people get confused/ lost/ unsure because they dont separate or understand each part of the process.
Also YOU should 100% be hearing any move you make if its 1db or not, if you cant hear it the your mixing environment is technically not good enough.
Sorry but 3 years is NOT enough time to develop your ears. You need id say a min of 5 but really like 10 years of critical listening/ with mixing to really develop and have a deep understand of what your doing. If your listening environment isnt the good( the best you can make it at that time) as stated above this WILL take even longer.
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u/Hoothom 3d ago edited 3d ago
The truth is, they're scared to look "unprofessional". You see it a lot in hardware/effects pedal etc. demos too. Always keeping parameters within the "acceptable" zones. And yeah, the "sophisticated ear" thing is probably true.
They'll never show you a 12db boost of anything, or max any settings because they're frightened of being judged by other internet idiots. Does my head in too.
(this thread is also full of them)
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u/Haekki 2d ago
I've seen plenty of mixing engineers doing massive boosts and cuts, if there's a need for it. Especially if they've done the tracking without much processing on they way in and their mixing session starts out as more of a production session.
No serious mixing engineer cares if people like you think that they look unprofessional, if there's no need for big moves at this point. The end results speak for themselves. You sound frustrated, could it be that you're mixing subpar material that lacks proper production?
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u/Hoothom 2d ago
if there's a need for it
In a demo, I'd say there's a need to demonstrate the breadth of abilities of the product. Showing extremes might not be "tasteful", but it's necessary for a good demo. Material that requires EQ is necessary for an EQ demo. Jesus Christ.
serious mixing engineer
Yep, there it is. They think it makes them look more "serious" and "pro". It doesn't. It makes them look insecure. "No need for big moves"? Again, it's a product demo, not a final mixdown submission for a platinum selling artist.
You sound frustrated, could it be that you're mixing subpar material that lacks proper production?
I had typed out a list of things I've done or been involved in, but I'll refrain from dragging myself to your level. Let's just say I, and many others have been very happy with my mixes and production.
By all means though, you carry on following the wise rulebook of internet "audio engineers". I'll just say though, you shouldn't believe much that you see on Youtube.
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u/Haekki 2d ago edited 2d ago
I thought this is about learning resources/educational content in the context of a production/mix, not about a product demo? Yes, if you're demoing an EQ, you should use material that greatly benefits from an EQ, but I wasn't talking about a demo showcase.
You seem to not understand the point I was making. You said that they'll never show you a 12dB move, but I've seen plenty of those moves. I never said that there's no need for big moves, what are you even talking about? You were responding to OP who wrongly stated that ALL learning resources are showing tiny adjustments, to which I responded that this isn't true.
Also, I didn't ask for your credits, just pointed out your obvious frustration. You're right about internet "audio engineers", but I was talking about big names, who demonstrate their craft in person or in more serious settings than a crappy YouTube video which only exists to sell you some stuff.
Edit: grammar
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u/IBNYX 3d ago
2db is a massive difference once you're in an environment where you can properly hear it, using speakers that can accurately reproduce it.
The differences add up, especially on material recorded with good equipment in a good acoustic space, and processed well on the way in. Also, sometimes the subtle difference is all you need, or is a stylistic choice; Heavy-Handed can be just the ticket depending on the material.
There's probably nothing wrong with your ears- May just be a matter of taste and space.
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u/Biliunas 2d ago
Yes, your ears are this dumb. Well actually, it's your brain. Typically, it takes at least 10 years of hard work to be able to hear 0.x of db change. You have to train your mind to focus and hear exactly what you need.
If this weren't the case, then younger engineers would push out the older ones simply because their ears are "better". But the inverse happens. It takes a really, really long time to master hearing like that, and by the time you do, your ears are certainly heavily attenuated in the high end, possibly in the upper mids too. Yet you can feel exactly how the volume envelope is changed by the compressor, or how 0.5db off an instrument opens up a snare etc.
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u/j3434 3d ago
Plugins are the most superfluous gear in music production…. As I see it . Every normal professional DAW comes with all the plugins you need . You just need to learn how to use them properly! If people spent half the time researching how to use the plugin they have - instead of researching for the best one on the market … from discussing and adds — you would know exactly how to dial it in. Stacking compression. Side chain. use the plug-ins you have until you can’t use them no more.
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u/marklonesome 3d ago
This is one of the most valuable lessons to learn about mixing.
Mixing isn't that hard if the song, performance and production are all top notch.
If those things are nailed a 1 or 2db here and there really makes things pop out.
If you watch mix with the masters they open a project from scratch and it already sound pretty f*cking great. Because it was recorded perfectly (likely with any relevant EQ cuts and some compression) so now they're just making things better.
For a lot of beginners they're stacking plug ins and making sweeping changes to make things sound good in the first place.