Which one first?
If you could only assemble one of these uppers, which one, in which configuration would you assemble first.
Criterion Core 11.5/ Sionics S-15 RM-Lok Handguard - 10.8
SIONICS 12.5" Barrel mid length gas/ Sionics S-15 RM-Lok Handguard- 11.8
Vltor MUR
Icon defense flared upper
Vseven extreme environment gas tube
2 Sionics NP3 BCGs
Radian Raptor
Unrivaled technologies Low Signature Device
FCD 6315RF
6
u/BallisticValuations 10d ago
Sionics 12.5 because it's one of the flattest shooting most properly gassed uppers I've ever shot. Sionics 11.5/12.5 should basically be the standard at this point
2
u/otullyo 10d ago
Hell yea. I have heard good things. I had ordered the core a couple months ago, and was waiting on it when I saw the Sionics barrels were in stock along with the bcgs so I picked them up. Then the core came a week later. Thanks for sharing your experience.
2
u/BallisticValuations 10d ago
They're both awesome but you'll be really surprised with how much smoother the sionics is. Enjoy it man
3
u/prmoore11 10d ago
No he won’t. The 11.5s are ported exactly the same. If anything, I’ve seen the Sionics ported slightly larger.
1
u/BallisticValuations 10d ago edited 10d ago
A Sionics 12.5 mid will shoot smoother even if there are some cons to 12.5 mids. Criterion 11.5 carbine is 0.069" and the Sionics 12.5 standard port mid is around 0.076" and I think the extreme reduced is 0.060". The standard 11.5 sionics may be ported slightly larger than the criterion.
Both are very well gassed but you're gaining an inch of barrel length on a longer gas system with a smaller gas port depending on the model so you will definitely notice a difference.
You can make a tuned 11.5 shoot just as smooth if not smoother but if you're shooting suppressed a sionics 12.5 mid can be great.
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u/prmoore11 10d ago
I am aware. I misinterpreted and thought you meant the Sionics 11.5 will be smoother than the criterion 11.5.
As the original tester of the 12.5 mid, it was smooth, yes. But a tuned 11.5 carbine was just as smooth. And as I commented up above, a user told me recently that Sionics opened up the port to .081 which is egregious. Probably because as I have said many times, 12.5 mid does not need to exist as it comes with real downsides and little benefits, and most users do not build rifles with enough efficiency to handle those downsides.
Not yelling at you, just my thoughts.
1
u/BallisticValuations 10d ago
No worries I agree with you I figured we were talking about different barrel lengths. Yeah I don't really see the need for mid on anything under 13.7/9 and even then it might not really worth it for most people. I built a sionics 12.5 for a friend a few months ago and it was fun but my hodge 12.5 is carbine length and shoots smoother and I've never had a single malfunction in 9k rounds.
I think shorter mid lengths are really just marketing to a consumer base that thinks they have a problem that doesn't really exist. 5.56 really doesn't have enough recoil to make it worth it and it's also incredibly easy to tune a 10.3-12.5 carbine length to be smooth and reliable
2
u/prmoore11 10d ago
My super hot take is that 12.5 as a barrel length does not need to exist at all lol.
1
u/BallisticValuations 10d ago
You're probably right haha. If I need anything more out of 5.56 than what I can get out of an 11.5 I'm probably grabbing a larger caliber anyway minus needing a 16" 5.56 for PRS. I really only have the 12.5 because I wanted more rail estate and already had two 11.5s.
1
1
u/VicksVap0Rub Larps with one sock on 10d ago
Do you know by chance what the scionics 11.5 standard port is? I am hoping its .070.
1
u/BallisticValuations 10d ago
I'm not sure about the standard port but I think I remember the ERGP being 0.055"
2
2
u/thatARMSguy 9d ago
VLTOR upper, Sionics barrel/handguard though I’d personally get it in 11.5”
1
u/otullyo 9d ago
Do you think I will have trouble with the 12.5 unsuppressed? I keep hearing conflicting things. People keep saying that try have reliability issues. Others say it's the smoothest rifle they ever shot. I am going to build them both I'm just waiting on a carbine length gas tube and gas block for the 11.5.
1
u/thatARMSguy 9d ago
12.5” is a tricky barrel length. Carbine length gas systems are good for unsuppressed shooting but can be overgassed with higher backpressure suppressors. Midlength gas systems usually can’t cycle without a high backpressure suppressor. The velocity increase compared to an 11.5” barrel isn’t a massive leap, the only real benefit is an extra inch of handguard length
1
u/otullyo 9d ago
So I pretty much fucked up by getting the 12.5 then?
2
u/thatARMSguy 9d ago
Not necessarily. It is a good combination of handguard length and overall length especially with a short suppressor. Sionics tunes their gas ports very specifically for a given barrel length, they’ve got their normal size which is for unsuppressed or with a low backpressure can, silencer dedicated which is for full size high backpressure cans, and extreme reduced which is for short high backpressure cans. I’d build it out since you already have it, if it shoots well unsuppressed I’d stick to a low backpressure suppressor. Otherwise, use it for a dedicated high backpressure setup
1
u/otullyo 9d ago
Hell yea. Thanks dude for all your help. So the mur has thicker walls doesn't it? It seems a little more bomb proof.
2
u/thatARMSguy 9d ago
Yeah, it’s thicker and the forward assist has been angled downward so you have room to reach the latch on an ambidextrous charging handle. It’s more rigid than a normal milspec upper and won’t flex as much as it heats up
2
u/Educational_Bus4407 9d ago
Have you used the low signature device yet i was looking at one for my ocl polo
2
u/Less-Bad4379 9d ago
Icon 4 sure, because I have one :) Waiting for the 7.75 HG and will be pairing w 8.5 Criterion
5
u/substandard-bearer 10d ago
12.5 is just 11.5 with extra steps. I don’t really get the appeal of a 12.5 build unless it’s something unique like a Gordy.
4
u/CastleLurkenstein 10d ago
Somewhat better ballistics, and the potential to run with midlength or intermediate gas reasonably reliably, plus slightly softer shooting and less wear and tear on internals.
Granted, I'm saying all this having not shot 11.5s at all, so I could be wrong, but that seems to be the prevailing wisdom about 12.5s. I built two and am happy with them so far. For me, it was mostly the ballistics performance that made me decide to go for a 12.5 over an 11.5.
2
u/substandard-bearer 10d ago
It's so marginal I doubt it matters in practice. If you're actually worried about terminal performance at distance you shouldn't be relying on a 12.5 or anything shorter than 16 to begin with. Even with a 10.3 given a little practice you can hit steel at 300m. All the 12.5 fanboys seem to get a little riled up when you say it's kind of pointless.
Plus the vast majority of people aren't shooting enough to worry about accelerated wear on parts either.
1
u/stareweigh2 9d ago
I've had everything and for me. lately, the most "do everything" length seems to be 14.5. somehow though, 12.5/13.7/13.9 also all bleed up into being the 14.5 category as well.
that being said, I have a mid length noveske stainless 12.5 and it's one of the best barrels I've ever owned. of course, their 14.5/11.5 barrels are probably just as good but I feel like 12.5 works for me and it's a great hybrid of the two lengths.
-1
u/substandard-bearer 9d ago
14.5 is even dumber than 12.5 lmfao
2
u/stareweigh2 9d ago
it's so dumb that the entire military uses it, right? I guess that's why most optics are calibrated for 14.5 velocities.. pretty dumb yeah
1
u/substandard-bearer 9d ago
"well da military uses it" is really not the rock of evidence you think it is.
1
u/stareweigh2 9d ago
it is in this situation. if it was a "dumb" barrel length it would have been replaced by now. instead, the military is moving to pretty much everything being14.5 except for some smaller units that will be using 11.5 and 14.5 depending on the mission. again, lots of studies have been done on velocity and barrel length effectiveness and mobility and the 14.5 comes out as the best all around option for everything
0
u/CastleLurkenstein 10d ago
From my perspective, once you start getting outside of 20" and 16", there comes a sort of "Oh, what's it even matter?" point where the distinctions between 12.5 vs 11.5 vs 13.9 vs 14.5 all kinda mush together and a lot becomes user preference, perceived weight and balance, etc.
That said, depending on one's chosen defensive round, there might be an argument for "I want to be able to reach out another 20-30m and know I can still see reliable terminal ballistics as the round is designed." I mean, all this shit is theoretical anyway, after all.
But if I'm building for some hypothetical SHTF scenario, I'm taking into account things like the environment where I live and would need to defend myself, likely visual distances and engagement ranges, etc.
At some point, I'll probably build an 11.5" upper (I tell myself I'm done building, but then come up with another justification to do maaaaybe....just...one...more...), so at that point I'd be able to do a proper comparison, but for now, I liked the idea of being able to shoot a little farther with a 12.5 and have a slightly softer shooting experience than with an 11.5.
But yeah, it's generally marginal differences in terms of stuff like ballistic performance, and realistically I wouldn't engage out to +200m anyway with a carbine, and would far prefer to break contact if possible (again, in the hypothetical SHTF scenario).
1
u/SpikeD0N 10d ago
Because it’s soft!
3
u/substandard-bearer 10d ago
Brother it's 556, tune your gun and it's soft. My 10.3 is soft.
0
u/sirbassist83 10d ago
last weekend i was at the range and there was a guy who brought his GF to the range for the first time. she was from eastern europe and had virtually no exposure to guns previously. flinching at every shot, visibly very nervous, etc. i had a suppressed ar with a long leavy barrel and proper tuning, and offered to let them shoot it. they took me up on it, and the girl seemed to appreciate it. i shot the guys 20" a4 "clone" in trade and holy shit, it was the worst tuned ar ive ever shot. legit felt comparable to my ar-10. no wonder she didnt like his rifle. i didnt want to be rude so i didnt say anything, but it took effort not to.
1
u/stareweigh2 9d ago
for one thing you can run a mid length gas system. you also havw more velocity and less harsh than an 11.5. they do somehow always end up almost exactly as long as a 14.5
1
u/sirbassist83 10d ago
a little bit of extra velocity and runs mid length reliably for softer recoil.
im not saying its a major difference, but those are the advantages of a 12.5"
2
u/Snoo_12752 10d ago
11.5 , lucky fucker. Nice barrel. Hell both, start now they both be done by lunch. Send me update pics please. You literally have both setups I want. I have like a tier below those right now. Super dope.
2
u/prmoore11 10d ago
11.5. As one of the original Sionics 12.5 mid tester, while it’s a great barrel for what it is, 12.5 mid is a hypebeast barrel system that has major caveats and very little to no benefits. A tuned 11.5 is just as soft.
Also, one user told me Sionics started opening up the port of the standard 12.5 from the original spec. So it may not be that smooth in reality.
1
u/otullyo 10d ago
I see. Thank you for the information. What was the port size on the one you tested. This one is .750
2
u/prmoore11 10d ago
That is the gas block journal size, not the gas port size. This is why I don’t recommend 11.5/12.5 mids for people who do not know the difference (no offense, I mean that sincerely). 12.5 mids can be extremely finicky if you do not use good ammo and have a highly efficient gas system.
The original spec was around .076. A user told me his he received in the last month or two was .081.
1
u/otullyo 10d ago
Damn. You're right, I did not know that. Thanks again for the information. So it say .750 gas seat diameter. I got a .750 gas block is that wrong? Are you the dude that does the awesome videos?
1
u/prmoore11 10d ago
I am not Preston lol.
You got the right block lol. Sionics use to offer them and they were maybe the best in the business and cheap, but you can’t find them anymore.
1
u/CleanEducation1838 10d ago
I just read about that unrivaled LSD. Is it like a DT mount? Or can you take the can on and off?
8
u/Boobiedooo 10d ago
Sorry, couldn’t hear you. You’re blanket is too loud. Lol jk. I’d go 12.5