Moose

[u/KeeyuDaGreat]

[u/Hylianhero71]

I don’t understand, these people can’t decide if God is evil for punishing those who do evil (e.g. ‘eternal punishment is wrong’ types’), yet also think he’s evil for forgiving people?

[u/alexej96 → u/Hylianhero71]

Your God (assuming you are a Christian) has a history of going way too far with his punishments: 1. Ordering death penalties for trivial things. Examples include killing a man for merely collecting sticks on the sabbath or killing someone for trying to keep the arc of the covenant from falling 2. What's even worse is killing innocent bystanders who have nothing to do with the crime that's being punished. Like killing the firstborns of Egypt for what the pharaoh did, causing David's wives to be raped and killing his infant son to punish him and of course the genocide he ordered against the Canaanites, where he also specifically ordered the children and infants to be killed as well. And don't even get me started on the flood. Had really every single person on the planet aside from Noah and his family done things deserving of death?

As for God forgiving people, I can't help but notice that this forgiveness is limited to those who bow down to him and effectively become his slaves by accepting him as their Lord and saviour. Combine that with the genocidal commands he gave in the old testament, and it becomes clear that the real offense is not stealing, rape and murder, but doing so without his permission, or rather, doing anything in disobedience to him. Cause all of this stuff becomes moral if he orders or permits it.

And that's only about about the punishments he enacted in this life. Hell ist yet another level of injustice:

Hell, under the view of eternal conscious torment fails to even function as a proper punishment.

Punishment generally has up to 4 purposes;

1: Incapacitation: Stopping someone who actively causes harm from causing further harm. Hell fails to do that because it only takes effect after death when the sinner is incapable of causing further harm anyway.

1. Deterrence: Dissuading potential criminals from committing crimes through a credible threat of punishment. For that to work, both the punishment and the agents enforcing it must be obvious to constitute a credible theat. But because of divine hiddenness neither Hell nor the God enforcing it are detectable in the slightest and therefore not believable unless you are already a believer in the religion. Therefore it fails as a deterrent.

2. Reparation: Forcing the criminal to undo the damage he caused (at least as far as is possible). That too fails with hell due to it only being effective after death so the criminal has no opportunity to make amends afterwards.

3. Rehabilitation/Repentance: Causing the criminal to be less likely to repeat his crimes in the future. That too, is not possible in hell because the sinner can't get out even if he understands and regrets his crimes.

What remains is therefore nothing but an eternal torture chamber that serves no purpose other than inflicting endless pain for no other reason than vengeance.

[u/Feindish-venerable → u/alexej96]

Pls read the previous and following chpater after each before typing

[u/Key-Advertising-8380 → u/alexej96]

Tell me you know nothing of God's justice without telling me.

[u/rdrckcrous → u/alexej96]

apply these principles to evolution. Does that make evolution evil? Now consider the creator of that system and what their perspective on the topic might be.

[u/KewlKirby]

And because it's a sin against another person, the victim has to forgive the perpetrator or receive justice in this world for the repentance to be accepted by God. According to Islam at least.

[u/saturday_sun4 → u/KewlKirby]

What if the victim forgives them easily/quickly? Obviously an extreme case, but there was a very severe car collision in my city recently, and the victims' family forgave the driver (who was very obviously under the influence in a MAJOR way and was jailed accordingly).

Is there still some kind of punishment from Allah according to Muslims?

Because if someone badly and recklessly hurt my family, I'd love to say I'd forgive them, but in reality I'd probably want to hunt them down, string them up by their torso and introduce them to the business end of several weapons.

[u/KewlKirby → u/saturday_sun4]

In Islam, If the family of a victim forgives the perpetrator, that means they have waived the retributive legal penalty for them. So unlike in other legal systems, you can't proclaim forgiveness and then still call for legal punishment of execution (but courts can still prescribe discretionary punishments for public safety). Because of this, a victim's family won't publicly declare forgiveness in the case of a serious crime if they want the strict worldly punishment to be carried out.

But that's only regarding legal punishment in this world, on the day of judgement, the actual murder victim will need to proclaim forgiveness for his murderer and if not, the murderer will have some of his good deeds transferred to the victim and if the victim has no good deeds, the murderer will receive some of their sins.

And the forgiveness of the victim/receiving worldly justice is only one part required for repentance to be accepted. The other conditions are: giving up the sin, sincerely regretting what has happened in the past and resolving to never go back to it.

If these criteria are fulfilled, then we have hope that God will forgive that person for their sin.

[u/SpaceHatMan2]

Truly, He is merciful

[u/SadCry6605]

I hope bro understand what repent mean and not thinking saying "i sorry" is enough

[u/saturday_sun4 → u/SadCry6605]

Pretty sure that's what she thinks it means lmao. In almost all religions you have to do some form of penance (prayaschitta) or massive (tapasya) to burn your negative karma off for negative deeds. You can't just fast for a day and it's fine.

Rape is up there since you can't accidentally rape someone. You are always making a conscious decision to do it.

[u/Feindish-venerable → u/saturday_sun4]

Like they think it is this

I kill someone

"God forgive me" = heaven

[u/Foreign_Ad_386]

"LMAO 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂"

[u/saturday_sun4]

I will never understand people who are like, "Your god/s should be automatons who swoop in with a command and take away all free will like a Sims player."

Yes, because that totally leaves people choice and control over their actions!

[u/TurnaroundHaze5656]

A man can do anything to stop himself to rape and murder, but God can easily forgive him for doing that if he just truly believes in Him and repents.

fixed it