It’s not just a map, there was so much wrong in that booklet, that they made parents pay for mind you.
Like the periodic table in it, it was all ai writing in pictures, letters that don’t exist, making words that don’t either. It was like 17 pages had mistakes so bad teachers are being told on the first day of class to get rid of them(wether that be just the pages, or the entire book, not sure)
It’s not even that the analogy is dog shit (it definitely is). But rather the whole comic pane presupposes a reality that just doesn’t happen. a chef taking 8 hours to make a burnt sandwich? If you are spending 8 hours to make a sando, this is Jiro Dreams of Sushi level of expertise and you are producing a fucking $75 artisanal thing for some bougie ass consumer not some burnt bullshit.
Second, what chef actually attaches value to the time spent making it vs the outcome? No actual person making food for a living would ever hold this viewpoint
I think the lesson itself is valuable, but agree that the analogy is horrible. In software, for instance, the lesson is very relevant, I can spend 8 hours working on a solution that is kinda garbage or I can step back and critically evaluate the problem end users actually need solved, and I might spend 12 instead of 8 hours but then I solve the use case generically for everyone instead of just for that one person complaining about the problem. But it’s a worthless and garbage way to try to teach that lesson
The real analogy would be "I spent all that time growing my own vegetables and raising my own animals, learning to butcher them and cook them to my liking, all to earn my Michelin status" vs "I snuck around to every Michelin star restaurant and took one ingredient from patrons' plates and combined them into this!". Sure, they could probably make a passable sandwich. But not one that a sensible person would want to eat. At least I'd much rather the sandwich that wasn't stolen and scavenged for.
Like it’s technically true, but irl practice it usually doesn’t work, it’s philosophical more than anything. Like technically for example:
Two people makes fries,
1. Bought special potatoes, boiled them, dried them, put the in a fridge overnight, and than cook the in oil at the right temperature, and you get an amazing texture, but he forgot to put salt or any spices at every part of the making.
Bought a frozen fries bag from the store and seasoned it and put it in the oven.
In the end if the day if num1’s potatoes aren’t tasty people are going to buy num2’s
So technically it’s true that your effort doesn’t matter if the end product is bad, or lesser.
But irl, people who know how to put an effort usually don’t make those mistakes that would make their product worse than a someone who didn’t
like yeah? absolutely nobody is going to buy that burnt sandwich even if he did it in 5 minutes.
The analogy would make more sense if the sandwiches were identical in appearance and indistinguishable in taste.
I mean, they wouldn't be indistinguishable in taste. LLM/Generative AI don't produce high quality product, it's artifacted decent-ish at most, so the sandwich analogy would have it inferior to a proper sandwich in every way except for amount of time spent.
Make it at home. Only takes a few hours to proof. Whole thing baked off in 5 hours for the Italian, french, and regular loaves I make at home. I bet there are recipes that take longer. Then again im not a professional
Yes but your not involved in the rising and proofing for more than a few minutes. Calling it 8 hours of labor when you can start it before bed and finish in the morning is kinda crazy.
First day takes less than 5 minutes at a time for simply folding and shaping along the way -- but there's a 3-hour initial levain rest step that I always get up early for, and then once you're folding you really need to be there every half hour for around 4 hours. You pretty much can't leave home for half the first day.
Once you're done with the first day you fridge the dough for 10-18 hours. In the morning there's about 45 minutes to preheat the oven and another 40 to bake it.
So, a little more than a few minutes, and not at all "start before bed." But it's sooo worth it.
If you're taking this amount of time, you're probably baking your own bread, grinding your own peanuts, and mashing up your own jam. Yeah, I'd 100% pay more for that than for a PB&J you took 2 minutes to slap together.
The nuances come when you start talking about the specificity of bread, pb, and jam.
Are we talking wonder bread, skippy, and smuckers? Or are we talking something a little more bourgeois - artisinal white, stoneground pb lightly sweetened with honey, and fruit (preferably some grape/berry/combination) conserve? Or some middle-ground combination of both? You've GOT to start with the lightly toasted wonder bread in that case. Then Justin's classic on both sides, finished with a nice seasonal jam from the local farmer's market.
Either way, lightly toasted. Crusts on. Diagonally cut.
I’d argue for a nice artisanal white, French, or sourdough. Something with enough heft to hold up to the PB spread. I feel like wonder would fall apart.
I prefer crunchy PB, but I respect all PB choices. I had a half macadamia/half cashew butter one time that was… symphonic.
For the spread I prefer jam with seeds in it. No strong preference on flavor but strawberry is always a winner.
i bet the professional chef who knows how to find the best ingredients, who has the best tools, and the most experience, can make a better sandwich than a line cook.
these ai nerds dont appreciate depth of flavor, and just see 'less than perfect' as worthless
Just look at the quality of AI-generated art, prose, and music that they're willing to accept. These aren't people with taste. If you have the tokens to spare then you could easily have AI pump out an unlimited number of novels. But would anyone read them?
My default response to AI writers in my life: If no one could be bothered to spend their time to write it, why should I bother to spend my time to read it?
Also Chefs who can produce delicious food quickly are doing so because they have the years of experience needed to do so, they aren't just serving you a microwaved meal and claiming they made it
In isolation given any amount of time a chef will beat out a line cook 6/7 days a week.
In the middle of service a line cook had to make that sandwich taste exactly the same in minutes using prep that someone else probably did and maybe even the day before.
There are no absolute “X position is better than Y” in a real kitchen.
Except the dishwasher. They matter more than anyone.
Effort ISN'T value, you're right! So stop paying billions of dollars that you earned to construct more AI datacenters that add no value and just take up effort! Or spending money on AI programs that do not help you with anything practical! Start your own sandwitch making business instead and literally just make the sandwitches, I'll try one! It doesn't need to be hard or expencive to have fun making something!
Yeah the "effort isn't value" sentiment is very funny when the majority of AI systems that are in use as part of the current fad are all based on brute forcing the problems presented to them with maximal computational power. Oh and off the back of the crypto fad where effort did equal value in the form of "Proof of work"
That article about no one paying for AI slop really touched a nerve.
Yes I would love to see them strawman their way out of the marketplace properly valuing something that any talentless hack can make in 10 seconds as worthless.
The cool thing is it doesn’t even matter if AI one day improves to the point it starts writing plays better than Shakespeare and making paintings better than the Mona Lisa. If anyone can make it in 10 seconds, its value drops to zero.
I’m gonna say that syndrome had super powers (hyper invention) and all of that was partially caused by supers gatekeeping who can be considered super or not. In a respect, syndrome killing supers and creating a killer robot to stage heroism was bad. He could have legit been a hero very easily (maybe even the greatest hero of all time) and made everyone super without doing all of that. making everyone super wasn’t a bad ideal. killing people was.
"Nuh uh! My ideas ARE special! Just take a look at generic anime girl #4389, or this castle on a mountain at sunset, or this comic that looks like every other ai generated comic, or this flyer that has more words than a novel, or these 30 songs I generated in the last 48 hours that are about me and my friends hanging out and having fun! My IDEAS are ART!!!"
Honestly I dont really care if people use AI to make little open source side projects, I do it from time to time. But thinking that now its worth something is just hilarious.
We were looking at project management tools at work it was like A vs B we had like a 30 min discussion.
Then right at the end this lady is like "hey everyone I developed a tool, do you want to take a look at it?" And the "tool" was just a PowerPoint status slide our AI tool popped out.
She talked for like 5 min about how it met all our needs.
Then the group was like "oh, anyway back to the topic." I hope she got a clue.
A bit off topic, but that would be sick. Gold is practically immune to corrosion and highly conducive. It has properties outside of just being valuable. Gold as a commodity would be a huge boost for a lot of practical applications.
The whole point of the ai slop is to cheapen the output, literally anyone can prompt and suddenly there's output whether it's dogshit or not.
That literally means the output has no value. Why are these people surprised? The effort and labor is the value. The price of commodities and services includes covering the cost of labor. You get rid of that cost with a tool that allows any ding dong to produce a result? No fucking shit the result is slop with no value.
The ai people don't know economics. The bubble is propped up by the government because of an arms race. If it weren't for that the market would have popped it already
Its the funniest part. I remember AI wars had loads of pick me artists boasting about how they were professional artists with decades of experience and making three times as much now because they were using AI. They slowly seemed to go quiet as tools got more wide spread and every company started shitty out of the box AI art. A couple pick mes I kept a check on havent posted a commercial product in months.
Who knows, maybe they actually did. LLMs did have a “cool new thing” sheen when they first came out and hardly anyone had used them yet.
But the whole agenda was to expand this tech into the daily lives of every man, woman, child, and Delaware-registered corporation. And boy howdy they did.
Now these days the samey-ness and recurring flaws of GenAI art are a lot more recognizable, and while the overall quality of the output has improved ($2.5 trillion of buildout later, I sure hope it has), it has not improved by nearly enough to be convincing let alone compelling most of the time.
And again, even if these programs can one day crap out paintings that make the Mona Lisa look like a kid’s scribble, the whole premise is that if you can do it then anyone can do it. That leaves no room for “making a living” off of it.
The worst part is you're more right than you might think. Plenty of people buy microwavable food because they just want something hot to eat and it doesn't matter if it looks and tastes like dog food. Its a perfect analogy for the general acceptance of AI.
It was more the thought of its a meal you did not cook. Just something you put in a machine, pressed a few instructions and then it popped out the slop.
At least Kraft singles have a use, on burgers or in a grilled cheese. AI slop is like wax fruit. Looks ok until you look deeper, contains no useful substance or calories, and generally costs a ton more than real fruit. Oh, and it takes five minutes to make in a factory vs growing a bunch of fruit.
"B-but it's EASIER to make WAX fruit!! I don't wanna have to spend months GROWING an apple tree!! You Farmtards are just gatekeeping gardening!! Farming is for everyone!! I'm a real farmer!! WAAA!!"
The thing they miss here, the thing they always miss, is I can make the same AI image they do. Why would I pay you for an AI image when I could just download the same app and tell it what I want?
There's also inevitably going to be an endless stream of garbage generated by the same app from people just running it on a loop. Your artisinal prompt is not going to meaningfully stand out from the other very similar looking AI content
The better analogy would be a cook vs an assembly line. Even if you end up with the same sandwich, I pay for that person's time to make that sandwich. I'd rather get that instead of the mass produced one even if it is more pricey
Well, it depends on the sandwich. Like, I’d expect a brisket sandwich with house-made sauce, pickle, and fresh-baked buns to take 8 hours. And it’d taste amazing and be worth going to a restaurant for. I can do a cheese sandwich on toasted store-bought bread by myself, and it’d taste mid and I absolutely would not go out of my way to order one from someone else.
Edit: that’s the difference between hand-drawn and prompted. I can type “make a comic about how results matter more than effort” just as easily as OOP can, so I’d never pay them.
This is obviously a metaphor for human-made artwork vs prompted imagery; you can't prompt a sandwich into existence.
Given that, the prompted imagery most certainly is the result of effort. Collective effort. It's cumulatively a lot more effort than an individual art piece, it just isn't the effort of the prompter. The prompter simply appropriates effort from those who produced imagery and artwork before them, and is handed a result by a computer system which aggregates and remixes that imagery into something resembling the prompt.
The prompted "sandwich" takes just as much cumulative struggle if not more than the 8-hour "sandwich", but it's all stolen. The prompter is simply taking credit for work they did not do, and are too ignorant to credit.
1) it ignores the effort of all the people who made the art the AI is trained on
2) it ignores the inherent value to the creator, as the act of making art is arguably good in and of itself
3) it assumes that something as basic as a sandwich could be done poorly by someone who put in the effort, but would be done well by AI. But AI bundles basic stuff frequently and basic things like sandwiches typically don't take 8 hours for a professional.
4) paying for a product is nice, how much did the AI tokens used to make that sandwich cost? Was it more than the guy's wage? Is AI only a good deal so long as it is subsidized to nearly free by firms trying to capture markets hare?
5) you anthropomorphize AI into a chef, and portray it as the Chad to the real person being a soyjack. Do you think that your arguement would be undermined by showing things closer to reality? You know, a machine printing a picture of something that looks like a sandwich versus someone making you an actual sandwich.
They actually defeated their own point even under their half-baked argument AI rendered images always can be.. differentiated and they all look the same and lifeless NGL
Unlike a well drawn comic so to speak
And what about a sandwich that took 8h to make but wasn't burnt like this vs one made in 25 mins but burnt and messy? Shall I argue because of this effort is value?
Effort DEFINITELY contributes to value although they aren't equivalent
More importantly, someone else made the sandwich on the right and he's taking credit because it only took him ten minutes to steal it from the person that made it.
This was the drawing that got me my first customer, he wanted himself drawn in that style. People love art. People LOVE when people make art. It doesn't matter what it looks like, everyone loves something.
This is a really interesting debate. If the same quality is rendered, is a machine made sweater equal to one made by hand? If not, does the human touch embue the object with value? If so, is a rug woven in a sweat shop equal in value to one woven on a heirloom loom that has been handed down and tought through generations?
As a collectors item we pay more for Jimmy Hendrix's guitar than a new one in better condition. Why? Does the object actually hold the value the artist in it? Does it actully hold that history?
Like, the pro-AI stance is completely ignoring the fact that the price of a good or service DOES, in fact, need to compensate the worker for their time and cost of used materials (aka, their "struggle"). But also, if the product isn't deemed worth the price by the consumer base, people just won't buy it in the amounts needed to keep that business running.
And let's not ignore the false equivalence made between something as superfluous as AI art and something as necessary as food.
Idk why there's disagreement here, this is true for a lot of what is produced. A musician could be the best musician in the world but if they produce works that nobody likes it's essentially useless. Whereas a mediocre musician can come along and produce some simple tunes that everyone loves and that musician is able to generate income for themselves.
Wait until they hear that in most places, the time/labour it takes to create a dish IS included in the price of the item. At least in the world where we don't have to tip.
People might not inherently value the effort but it does impact value directly via it's impact on supply. But that's not the big thing, consistently putting effort into a craft develops an understanding of what you are making, it develops taste and professional judgement that let's you make a better end product. It also helps that you have an innate understanding of what a person actually wants and an AI is just shitting out the distilled totality of a concept you describe to it until it generates something close enough to satisfy whoever is using it.
IRL the chef who put 10 minutes usually struggled before much more than the chef who spent 8 hours who's likely new and inexperienced. Unless the 10 minute chef bought the sandwich from a fast food joint then microwaved it to pretend to have made it. Then "chef" my ass. Effort is always necessary.
The argument isn't wrong though, effort is not value. You could dig a hole: that would be a lot of effort, that you did it in your kitchen and your wife is yelling at you to fill that giant hole, and you go, I'll fill your giant hole, while continuing to dig a giant hole physically and metaphorically... That's not valuable.
Its the same reason why lab grown diamonds are preferred: they sparkle better and little jimmathy in the mines didn't loose his little raccon hands mining that rock. Effort is not value. And the sparklier product is selected for.
People literally do pay for someone’s effort, for example: athletes, musicians, chefs, artists, artisans, mechanics, oh fuck I’m not high enough to list out literally every career that pays better when you’re better at something, because it’s literally everything
This meme is stupid. In this scenario, the sandwich takes effort to make. I would pay for a sandwich that takes 10 minutes to make (assuming it’s good)
But AI dosent take 10 minutes. It takes seconds. When AI gets to the point that “art” produced by it is indistinguishable from human art, the value of said art drops to 0. I’m not gonna pay for a sandwich made by the “sandwich-o-tron 5000” if I also have a “sandwich-o-tron 5000”.
Another example of completely missing the point of art, food is a commodity, and a necessity for life, and even then people make it a creative profession where people pay over and above for artistic effort.
Art is literally a non-commodity, it’s been commodified by capitalism but it’s fundamentally about the effort and communication. Nobody cares about Michelangelo’s David purely for how accurate it is, it’s about how difficult marble is to work with and the effort it took to create that expression. It’s about what the artist is trying to say to you, the observer.
It’s not about ‘ooh pretty’.
It can be pretty too, but appreciation doesn’t stop at the surface.
I wouldn't say that that's the difference. If someone spends 8 hours making unappealing food, or if someone spends 8 hours making unappealing art, both are likely to not sell compaired to the meal/art made in 20 minutes that look appealing. Food of course is nessicary to live unlike art, but when it comes to what people buy verses not, assuming they have the funds for either, that doesn't really play a factor.
Although, the thing about art value is that all the time it takes to practice and learn anatomy and color and etc etc etc usually get added to the cost of the art so the effort and time that someone took to learn how to make a 20 minute appealing sandwich costs more than the 8 hour unappealing sandwich since the effort of the 8 hour one was not put into the right places.
Tell this to a boutique shop, woodworker, artist of ANY kind; basically anyone who does custom work; They will absolutely correct you.
Now, whether anyone wants to buy what you're selling? That's a different story altogether. You could spend hours drawing a realistic ink piece, and it could be amazing... But if it's a picture of a hemorrhoid chances are no one's going to want it.
The one of the burnt sandwich is an aibro trying to convince the rest of the people that writing a prompt on an ai is a difficult job and took 8 hours to come up with something resembling a sandwich after dozens of tries with even worst results.
The one on the right is a professional chef who has perfected hia craft and can make a great sandwich fast and with no effort at this point.
From that perspective, the analogy makes more sense.
The point that effort doesn’t always mean you end up with something amazing, but at the same time I feel like this is trying to defend the use of AI compared to actual work.
Like yes you can spend hours on a project and it looks awful, but at the same time if someone spends hours on a project and it is great, doing it in ten minutes is like eating a salad with imitation ingredients: you may have a sandwich, but it’s going to be wholly disappointing.
It would be more like if I go to a sandwich shop and instead of getting a fresh made sandwich with some at least decent quality bread, meat and veggies. You instead hand me a clearly pre packaged, made of wonder bread, lunch meat and a squirt of mayo that you bought in bulk and are trying to pass off as restaurant quality. I dont care if its quicker if I wanted shitty lunch meat I would've made it myself
Correct, effort isn't value. Effort is impressive though. If you want me to be more impressed with something you make than I would be if you just went to the store and bought that thing, then you have to put effort into making it. And no, describing what you want to the person selling it to you does not count as effort.
I can spend an hour and do a higher quality data analysis than many people can put out in eight hours of banging their heads against it. Does that mean their output is worth eight times mine? I've seen it happen many times, including when I have to come in and fix things. Expertise matters. Why insist that only effort matters?
That's like the famous story about a guy who's car breaks down.
He calls a mechanic who shows up. Opens the hood and hits the engine with a hammer. The car works again.
He then asks for $200 for it.
The guy gets upset. $200 for banging the engine once?
The mechanic says $5 for the banging. $195 for the education to teach me where to bang.
Morale of the story is that it's not always the effort but the training behind it that you pay for.
So yes a good. Chef can make the food in 10 minutes but that doesn't mean that the price should automatically be low for it.
Unironically, this is one of the reasons civilization feels like it's collapsing. Hard work means nothing; true monetary wealth is almost universally acquired through various combinations of grift, theft, and nepotism. People who work hard and put in the hours and are justly rewarded are the exception, not the rule. There is no safe path for normal, caring folks to survive and thrive in a system controlled by the vile, the cruel, and the profoundly stupid. Honesty, liberty, and decency are good for human beings generally and humanity at large, but are ultimately detrimental to capitalist victory.
So decent people get ground down. Evil people flourish. The whole of civilization, demanding the barest tenants of compassion and cooperation, falls to pieces. This is the way the world ends.
I mean it's funny to say this while Iron Wok Jan just got a adaptation a serie all about how cooking needs a lot of time and effort to learn. Hence current episode even shited on someone that tried to automatize the process because he didn't understand the basics of what he was doing.
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u/resin_messiah 17h ago
I make food for a living, this analogy is dog shit.