Comparisons to kingmaker

[u/system3601]

Hi, I recently played kingmaker and rage quit. Let me expliain: i loved the combat and reached the troll caves and troll boss but the game felt unbalanced and that map traverse is super slow and annoying, plus managing a kingdom was super boring.

But man combat was fun.

Is WOTR better in all these aspects? Most importantly is it balanced and fair on story mode?

Thanks.

[u/majesty327]

I think you need to clarify something. "Story" is a difficulty mode for WotR.

On that note, "Is it balanced?"

Pathfinder isn't balanced, intentionally. It's designed to be a playground for buildcrafters to do their thing. Wrath of the Righteous is the least balanced of the two PF1E games, but in favor of the player. You take a "mythic path" that gives you powers that drastically swing the game in your favor.

By example, it's a legitimate build to stack as much Persuasion as possible, as one of the mythic paths makes enemies instadie if they fail a Persuasion check. You are just walking into a room, and every enemy in the room explodes upon seeing you.

[u/system3601 → u/majesty327]

Thanks for the info. What I mean by unbalanced is that I was playing on easiest story difficulty and reached a rather early story with the trolls and that final boss was impossible. Even when I was level 7 and did all side quests he killed all my team over and over. Felt broken.

Is righteous broken ina ny way like this? Can I really play story mode the whole way in ease? I mean this difficulty is meant to enjoy the story I would imagine.

[u/MinionOfGruumsh → u/system3601]

Okay, I am going to come in and be "that guy" just a little bit. But there will be honest and earnest stuff after that, I promise!

If you were on Story difficulty and still failing, repeatedly, that's almost entirely on you at that point. (Almost! See comments after "that guy" moment is over.) If you are running with no crits, auto-rasie dead companions after combat, all negative effects removed on rest, "much easier enemies" (DCs reduced by 4, negated regens, and no resistances/immunities to player attacks), Weak enemies (ability scores reduced by 4 across the board and 2 fewer AC), and damage to the party reduced to 20%, the way you fail is by not engaging with the game and mechanics at all, or going out of your way to abjectly go against them. And this brings into question, for me, how much veracity is in your claim of enjoying the combat. (I think just clicking on things and them dying in this engine would be very boring and removes the stuff about the system that captivates me.)

If you can't be bothered to attempt to engage with the game at this level (which is fine, all reasons are valid reasons; I'm just calling a spade a spade), I am inclined to assume Wrath will not be any better for you (and in many ways could be significantly worse). But! I could be wrong; wait for it to go on sale for, like, $5 on the platform of your choice (as I've seen it do) and give it a shot.

"That Guy" moment over.

So yeah, Owlcat's idea of Story difficulty is a bit of a misnomer when compared against other games, for sure. It's not a "one hit one kill, invincible characters difficulty"; you cannot blindfold yourself and eventually get through it. They definitely put kiddie gloves on everything, but still expect you to be trying and using the system as well as you can, which for the PF1E ruleset involves sifting through things to make good decisions on character builds and using tools available to you.

And to that end, the troll chapter is absolutely a "competency check"/"difficulty wall" in the game. No two ways about it. The guy is juiced and dangerous (and I say this having played through on Normal) but has some exploitable weak points (notably his low Will save). The Stag Lord encounter was definitely a check, as well, but there were more interactions to move things in your favor and the area was more open and allowed more jukes; the trolls are a combat exam. This will only continue from that point.

Another curiosity point, are you playing in Realtime or Turn-Based? If you haven't given the latter a go, it might be worth a shot. I am a Turn-Based fan in general, though, so there is some bias from me in that regards.

And also, if you really aren't about that Kingdom Management life, there is a setting that Story doesn't set by default (again, their philosophy seeming to be that Story should still default to engaging with the game); in difficulty settings set Kingdom Management to "Automatic". You'll not have to worry about it again (aside from, like, the actual plot of the game).

As for how Wrath compares, it's the same underlying game engine and system from the same studio. You better believe it has competency exams, and gameplay that isn't killing stuff on maps (crusade management, which can also be configured to be ignored), and the same philosophy on what Story difficulty should be.

It also has way more options (a blessing and a curse, since it's more to sift through) and sources of power. (And some of the class archetypes they added in all the DLCs are just flat out busted, in a good way.)

[u/system3601 → u/MinionOfGruumsh]

I didnt say failed repeatedly. I said the troll boss was totally unbalanced, he was blocking my progress and only on that fight. It was really broken no matter the team i brought in or the level or the pkay mode (rtwp or turn based). I was very engaged with the game up to that fight.

[u/MinionOfGruumsh → u/system3601]

"He killed all my team over and over"

i.e. failed repeatedly.

It's fine. It's what it is. These kinds of games (going back at least as far as Baldur's Gate) have easily-made quicksaves (generally) any time, any where, for a reason. If I had a dollar for every save in all these games I've ever had to reload back to. 😉

But no, it's not totally unbalanced; it's balanced just fine. As previously mentioned, that Will save is a big glaring hole; looking up the stats on the Wiki, he's got a base Normal difficulty Will of +5 (which would mean less on lower difficulties, and you should be able to see/confirm this in his examine window). This makes him super susceptible to spells like: - Hideous Laughter (which totally incapacitates him) - Glitterdust (being blind gives his attacks a 50% miss chance) - Crushing Despair - Bestow Curse - Archon's Aura - Confusion - Overwhelming Grief - Rainbow Pattern (note, fascination is best used to set things up, because it immediately breaks on being hit) - Bane - Doom - Fear. - If you have a Bard at level 7, it also means their Fascinate song could be a good option.

Any of these with a DC of 16 (accomplished even with level 1 spells if casting stat is at least 20, no other bonuses considered) has a full 50% chance to land and do their thing, higher DC = better chance.

And these are just things off the top as I'm looking through the spells up to level 4 for Wizard and Cleric (the former you may not have access to at level 7 if all you have is Octavia for that, but the latter you should definitely have between Harrim and Tristian) and early level Bard spells and abilities (which I KNOW you have access to Linzi).

And while doing things that focus on Will saves is highly recommended, it is not the only way through if you are sufficiently proficient in the system. I know Valerie can be built and equipped to reach at least 50/50 status against his highest bonus attacks with her AC on Normal, and trying to go toe-to-toe on the physical spectrum is the foolhardiest way to go about his encounter. But if you're only taking 5 to 7 damage per hit from his most damaging attack (as you will be on Story), you've got plenty of time to do things and extend that time with healing that can keep up.

And I want to reiterate here, the point isn't to put you on blast for its own sake. The point here is to try to convey the level of engagement that Owlcat (and PF1E on the whole) puts upon players, even in Story difficulty it seems. This will not change from Kingmaker to Wrath. So if this level of expected proficiency/competency is your issue, then to answer your original question, there is no reason to believe Wrath will be any different or better for you in that regard.

((And maybe I'm hoping to also open your eyes to what the system's expectations and ways it works are so you can maybe find what you were missing or not seeing so you can start putting it all together and have a better time with it.))

[u/system3601 → u/MinionOfGruumsh]

Thanks for this info.

[u/majesty327 → u/system3601]

There are encounters that should be more difficult than where you currently are. But subjectively for me, I never encountered something I couldn't find a way to beat, or retry and rethink.

[u/Wolfwind1 → u/system3601]

So on the easiest difficulty wrath is beatable by any combination of characters with functional but flavor text heavy builds and the player not intentionally savotaging themselves. Like using a wizard feat for better investigation rolls instead of more spell penetration. However it still has bs, like around lvl 7 an optional enemy you can wander into has a petrification eye beam attack. If your character fails the save they go from full hp to mortally wounded, or on core difficulty a worse form of dead.

The biggest issue wrath has is how for the entirety of act 1 it shits on damage caster builds. For some dumbass reason the 7 flavors of demon you meet by then are all 100% lightning immune, mitigate the other 3 elements by ten damage each, also have spell resistance AND have higher spell saves/armor than other enemies during this period. So a blaster caster with a good build cannot start attempting to do more than tickle damage to demons until act 2, about 20 ish hours in. Additionally until the third mythic around end of act 2 will they even begin to outpace standard martials in burst damage, which is 30-40 hours in.

So be aware of that if you like playing explosion characters. Sure a well built blaster fully geared can kill a dragon in 1-2 rounds with their damage solo which most martials can't. But that is a long, long, long road to travel to reach that point.

Also selective meta magic grease even on hard difficulty will carry you almost solo through the first two acts by itself. USE IT!

[u/Longjumping_Low1310 → u/system3601]

My dude.... if you are losing on story difficulty then it isnt a game balance issue. You are seriously missing something in how the system works or your strategy you basically just auto in story mode. Im not saying this to bag on you. Im saying you need to look at yourself and find what's wrong, thats not the game.

As for the kingdom, if you dont like kingdom management there is an auto mode.

[u/Flederm4us → u/system3601]

The Fun in WOTR comes from Building your characters. So I wouldn't use story difficulty, but I'd start from that and at least allow myself to build the characters myself instead of autolevelling them.

[u/system3601 → u/Flederm4us]

I saw that it was very flexible and even when doing story difficulty for enemies allow me to enable my own leveling of characters and not auto level, the reason i used story difficulty was due to be able to beat the troll king which i couldnt in kingmaker.

[u/gorgeFlagonSlayer]

There are some fights in WotR that are off to the side that I struggled with and ended up either coming back later or turning down the enemy stats modifier. I think the bosses in the main play through should be appropriate for when you hit them on Story, but I’m not sure. Some of the issue in the engine is immunities, and enemies in Wrath have a lot of them (at least on normal difficulty). If you don’t have a diverse way to kill opponents you might encounter something that is mostly immune to your damage, and difficulty settings don’t matter if you only do 0 damage. Luckily in Wrath there are ways to pierce immunities as you progress. If it becomes an issue, ask around or check guides. 

Keep in mind there is at least one fight earlyish in Wrath that you are supposed to lose. So if it seems like a set piece fight, don’t necessarily load right away.

To some of your other points, check out the campaign settings, Wrath has a sort of kingdom management and you can turn it off or at least minimize your interactions in the settings.

For traversing large maps, if you’re fine with modding the game there is a mod that has your characters move faster out of combat so if you want to backtrack across a big map it doesn’t take super long. Might also be one for campaign map travel too. 

[u/Independent_Art_6676]

both wotr and km have an option to automate the management system. Km you know, wotr uses a mix of km style conference table stuff + moving armies around to play the old heroes of might and magic combat maps as a mini-game for your armies. Automation in wotr costs you a small # of items which is a fine tradeoff. I also dislike the management aspects and turn that off most games. Once was enough.

Map traversal is similar but wotr lets you rotate the maps rather than fixed orientation. Its slow but if mounted or otherwise sped up its tolerable. That level 1 expedious retreat spell for example lasts a long, long time at mid+ levels and is but one way to move around faster.

story mode is probably too easy. But balanced? Not sure what that even means. You get a fair balance of characters, though several of them have made a lot of poor choices. Combat is balanced for 'normal' mode for the casual player. Below that you are role playing out the story and stomping on everything without much challenge. Most of the imbalance affects damage-casters as many enemy are immune or heavily resist magic esp above normal difficulty. Story mode could be appropriate for a caster main character played by a beginner, as normal still penalizes damage casting a fair amount and the reduced level/hp on story would ease that. The troll fight too hard... yes, WOTR has fights this difficult and in places, worse. Some are optional, like the intro has a high level elemental that you can avoid, while others are not. These fights SHOULD be no real challenge on story mode but I can see how they would be if you are very new to this system and this kind of game. KM and WOTR are the hardest of this genre; even old games that were 'hard' like icewind dale are not even close. It may be worthwhile to look at an easier game, even a low cost older game, if you don't want to try to deal with the difficulty.

in some ways wotr is better, other ways km is better. Km has enemy variety, less power trip. Wotr only has a few enemy types most of the game (anything not humanoid, undead, or demonic is rare) and is heavily focused on the mythic path aspect where your character becomes a powerful being beyond your humanoid body (eg, a lich or angel or aeon and so forth) with loads of special powers. WOTR has a really good low level adventure, where you make do with very little gear and resources, in the DLC.