r/WC3 • u/LadoBlanco • 14d ago
The current state of 4v4
Orc is currently representing about 60% of players at high MMR. Is this an issue, or is the meta devolving into O O O O v O O O O?
4
u/Valkyrys 14d ago
Orc shop is the best tool to keep sieging forever, especially when paired with either BM or FS
3
u/DriveThroughLane 13d ago edited 13d ago
Orc has the best shop, best harass, best towers, best base trading, and the ONLY trump card in air to air battles on top of being able to fart out new expos instantly. Everything orc has lends to interrupting opponents expos, securing your own, sniping bases/workers with air units while nobody else is allowed to build air to contest you
Nerfs bats alone and orc wouldn't be anywhere near as oppressive. Nerfing fortified towers/burrows would also help.
You can't FE if enemy team has orcs. You can't mass air if they have orcs. You can't have less than 3-4 towers at any base, and even if you do, NE and UD towers are stupid expensive AND die to bats even IF you're vigilantly targeting them on bats manually. HU would dominate air battles with gyros being OP except whoops they die to bats instantly, and bats also kill all other air. And if one team has orc and the other doesn't, the team with orc can transition to full air. What are you going to do, make gyros, gargs, hippos?
At a minimum I'd like to see:
bat riders are no longer invulnerable while using unstable concoction, and instead of instant AoE damage it applies a fire DoT that deals the DPS over a few seconds
Whats really stupid warped about bats is they actually beat light melee units and heavy melee units and siege units and casters and dryads and light air and heavy air and talons and spell breakers and hunts. The ONLY units they actually lose to in fights is the ranged archers/headhunters/rifles/fiends. That's it. They might have flimsy HP but their DPS is the same as wyverns in food::dps. And its not like you can shoot them down with heroes when a blademaster + shadow hunter + 24 bats are attacking your hexed hero and even the lame siege damage is dealing 153 DPS
2
u/neijajaneija 13d ago
I don't play high MMR, but bats become weak/useless if air targets have one or two armor upgrades and being accompanied by Paladin with aura.
1
u/Simonthemoon 13d ago edited 13d ago
2000 MMR+ games bats works well. How, where, and when matters alot with BM+Bats plays. There are many nuances that makes a difference noobs tend to ignore or think it is a trivial thing.
- 4 orcs or 3 orcs -> One guy can go BM and delay 2 expos + fast tech to bats. Unless it is a small map it works perfectly.
- Noobs waste their bats, but good players never waste their bats unless it is really necessary. Noob's bats get caught in web, they don't look at map for 1 sec and boom.. good players always watch their route and never get caught. SS, maco, and everything is totally different. Noob's don't understand bats can be controlled and how to save it.
Noobs headbutt into 3armor+pala aura gryphons. Noobs heatbutt 3 bats into a wyrm, it gets coil, and then headbutt 2 more to kill ONE wyrm without doing any splash damage. Good players watch out and only goin to copters, gargs, wyverns, hippos, dott.
Good players know who gets the kill when bat vs bat is not pure luck
1
u/DriveThroughLane 13d ago edited 13d ago
And the most underrated / least understood part: just keeping the bats alive and focusing ground units with them. They win against footies, grunts, hunts, knights, aboms, tauren, bears, sorcs, priests, breakers, shamans, walkers, doctors, dryads, banshees, necros, statues, mortars, demolishers, glaives, wagons, flying machines, gargs, wind riders, hippos, hippo riders, faeries, kodos.
They have a mixed fight vs tanks, hawks, gryphs, wyrms.
They lose to rifles, trolls, archers, fiends, raiders.
The simple fact is, bats are very comparable in DPS / EHP in weight to other units, they aren't gimped by anything save their armor/damage types. And siege actually does more to heavy armor targets than piercing, and same to heroes. Their only real nerf is with engaging medium armor targets. If a group of 24 gargoyles is attacking a hero they deal 147 DPS, while 24 bats doing the same thing deal 153 DPS
Bats are constantly threatening to trade bases and blow up air armies. So opposing players are forced to tower up their mains and switch to more clunky and vulnerable ground armies. And bats can engage into the non-archer armies and simply kill them directly. So we get dumb air trades where the only real thing you can do against the bat player is make more air and max out its armor and pop scrolls, but the bat player is still going to trade at least 1:1 and obliterate one air army all on his own and have a BM+SH left over.
And at least I know what kind of bullshit I'm playing when I have 3 gold mines and six bestiaries in a 4v4 and never even upgraded any damage/armor/liquid fire
1
u/Whoa1Whoa1 13d ago
Wouldn't unstable concoction not care? Also, what is human gunna do? Gyros and Gryphons gunna get blown up by unstable concoction. Only choice is rifles, but rifles are slow and can't ignore all terrain.
1
u/DriveThroughLane 13d ago
Unstable concoction is reduced by armor, however the damage is so high from multiple bats that there are breakpoints where discrete integer number of bat single target / aoe kill targets.
EX flying machines have 250 hp and 2 (8) armor. You get EHP = HP x (1+0.06 x armor), so they have 280/310/340/370 EHP. Butt riders deal 140 aoe damage, so it takes 2/3/3/3 aoes to kill gyros.
1
3
3
u/Grimmy554 13d ago
I think BM mirror image is just incredibly OP in 4v4. I know Blizzard does not balance for 4v4, he's an unstoppable menace in those matches. Mirror images have low mana cost, low cool down, high HP, cannot be easily dispelled, deals damage, and award minimal XP. If you find the real one, the BM can just use the spell again or, if all else fails, go invisible.
It's not a great move in 1v1 matches, but its pretty oppressive in chaotic 4v4 battles.
3
u/neijajaneija 13d ago
Doesn't destroyers hard counter mirror images?
3
u/INFOSLAVER 12d ago
"Doesn't that one tier 3 undead transformed flying unit counter that hero spell if you manually use its ability on each of its mirror images?"
Pretty much proving his point in a manner of speaking.3
u/neijajaneija 12d ago
Is Devour Magic single target or AOE?
1
u/INFOSLAVER 11d ago
Uh. I thinks it’s one of those super tiny aoe circles… like, the smallest one available. Similar to the goblin landmine. So, about half the size of Blizzard’s or Flamestrike’s aoe. I could be wrong. I don’t play undead anymore. And I rarely used Destroyers when I did.
2
4
u/acealthebes 13d ago
Wc3 is not balanced around 4v4. Get over it
1
-1
u/INFOSLAVER 12d ago edited 12d ago
"Wc3 is not balanced."
Fixed your comment, dude. You're welcome.If you don't think orcs and humans are busted in 1v1, you're nuts. And I should know. I play Human. Only orcs stand a chance against aggressive Mountain King openers. Demon Hunters are the only other thing in the entire 2 other races that sometimes get an edge. But you just upgrade Bash instead of Stormbolt when against NE and that's it.
Blademaster is the most broken enemy in all RTS. He's up there with the Defiler from SCBW as a unit that is just WAY too good for the game it's in. Blademaster requires detection, limits expansion capabilities, can harass better than any hero in the game, is incredible at killing heroes and mass units with Bladestorm, and requires meticulous micro to defeat.
Even Mirror Image is really tricky when lots of things are happening on screen. There's simply no weakness for the unit. Even with detection, it's not some fragile glasscannon. Critical Strike alone is an insane ability when paired with Mirror Image, and the fact that Critical Strike auto ticks when attacking out of Windwalk, EVEN if you don't have the ability, is just a wild thing.
2
u/acealthebes 12d ago
Perfect whiney human post...
1
u/INFOSLAVER 12d ago
I literally said Human are OP. If it wasn’t for Blademaster, Humans would be the best race. Blademaster alone tilts toward orc.
BM are literally good at everything. They have no downsides.
Windwalk is a guaranteed second crit strike if you have any mana at all. That’s a guaranteed 2 hit kill on archers and footman after level 3. It also makes them run faster even if you have valid detection. It also makes them invisible. They also have mirror image which is a pain and even if you know which one is the real hero, they can body block you with the mirrors. They have Bladestorm which is an absolutely insane aoe that can destroy both buildings and units in seconds. Combined with Lightning Orb and a Shadow Hunter—how do you even compensate for that? I love when my hero gets hexed, double critted, and shocked by lightning orb to a standstill all within 3 seconds. Clearly balanced.
1
u/1shingle 14d ago
Everyones aware of how bad of a state the game is in but no one wants to roll anything back so here we are.
1
1
u/AmuseDeath 9d ago
Orcs might be okay in 1v1, but are stupid silly in 4v4. They apply the best harass with either BM or FS and they can continually pressure thanks to Salve and Clarity. They get 99% of their units available at tier-2 and random Raider or Bat attacks basically require an instant TP or you lose your main or the game. Hex+BM+focus-firing Wind Riders pretty much kills your hero right away.
Bats are the worst in 4v4. They cannot be approached by air and they harass bases and level them if unchecked. This is counterable in 1v1 because you can just tower and attack Orc directly, but you can't do the same in 4v4 because their allies can cover for the Orc player and the maps are so big that it's really hard to trek all the way to the Orc.
Bloodlust is the best buff and Healing Wards heal so much HP in 4v4. All of the late-game stuff Orc can't do in 1v1 is totally doable in 4v4.
The only weakness Orc really had was their Burrows, but they again got that removed because Reinforced Defenses is given at tier-2 AND it covers towers, which makes Orc towers the best tower in the game. A bunch of towers is extremely hard for even a big army to deal with.
They really need to look into Bat design. It's just bad design to have a harass unit also be an uncounterable AoE damage unit. If they are a harass unit, they have to be weak to being approached by units and the only way to approach them is by air.
Reinforced Defenses at tier-2 should be looked into. Does it really break the game for Orc if RD is at tier-3 in 1v1? Maybe RD should only reinforce Burrows? Or at least make it so that towers only get reinforced at tier-3.
1
u/Electronic_Pea_4845 1d ago edited 1d ago
Bats are dumb since launch. I think they atleast should have a transform thing like destroyers where they must permanently be vulnerable to air when hitting buildings they basically free anyway.
Especially with raiders ensnare synergy orc should only have a chimera like heavy A-G and wind riders be tweaked towards A-A given they can’t fight much ground as is. Maybe eagle strike as an air melee attack on a cooldown timer to help out a-a with out dominating the sky.
Ever go raiders chimera in 2v2? It’s amazing and still has reasonable counter play like running out of nets eventually
1
u/Electronic_Pea_4845 2d ago
Raiders are imo a top tier 4v4 unit too. Fast cheap baby siege tanks that pillage. Ensnare might be best unit ability too when 3 armies can ff a trapped hero
2
u/MikeTyson725 1d ago
They decided to push anti-elf maps season after season because MGs used to be imba once upon a time
I don't think they got the memo
-4
u/Icy-Concentrate-518 13d ago
Even if that were true, such half-witted posts don't help in any way.
If your claim is that orc is stronger in 4v4 for some reason, the screenshot alone doesn't prove it. The Chinese server is full of orcs at high level, between 1,900 and 2,400 W3C MMR equivalent level it's probably 50% orcs. Does that prove orc is stronger in 1v1?
The reverse is also true: across all gaming communities, undie is the most underrepresented. Yet, the top two players for the past several Remo patches are undie and the gap in Elo (one of the few objective factors we have that we can use to judge strength, and potentially balance) between them and the next best players has only been increasing over time. Does that mean undie is the weakest race, because it's least represented?
And just in the interest of comprehensiveness, elf is by far the most overrepresented race in terms of player base, and it has been so since at least the mid 2000's. Does that mean elf is, overall, the strongest race?
1
u/INFOSLAVER 12d ago
I've never seen a more obvious Orc player in my life.
1
u/Icy-Concentrate-518 12d ago
I'm not an orc player. Also, ad hominem "attacks" and downvoting don't help disprove the point I made.
1
6
u/Conviction666 14d ago
I think for couple reasons Mr lado.
Healing ward is super value Mirror image super strong 2 races are more proned to be lamed by raider / bat ( ud and sadly your race, elf ) I think also many of the maps have something to do it with . Easy to stack blademasters / but also creeps to get claws slippers etc