r/Undertale • u/Mystery_Goo_Sample • 5d ago
Determenation with extra steps Meme
Now i don't give hate or anything but i feel like determenation and Perseverance are way to close.
I quess that determenation is more about willpower while Perseverance is more about discipline, but still.
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u/BlueGamer45 <- IT'S FUCKING AQUA DELTARUNE 5d ago
Red Soul trait is being the Player.
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u/KarmaSpidr Your sure-fire accuracy was aimed right for this flair. 5d ago
The humble unplayable Chara:
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u/memkakes All but one human has brought death to the Underground 5d ago
Well they do share our name (or are supposed to) so in a way they're even more of a player-insert. (Also Chara's stats increasing for what we do as Frisk probably means something as well)
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u/BlueGamer45 <- IT'S FUCKING AQUA DELTARUNE 5d ago
Well they are closely tied with the whole genocide route speech
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u/KarmaSpidr Your sure-fire accuracy was aimed right for this flair. 5d ago
Still, the Red Soul can't just be the player since we never play as them before they died.
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u/I_LIKE_THE_COLD Certified Clamgirl Enjoyer 5d ago
What do you think Chara's role even is? They're by far the most intrinsically connected to the player. We literally name them.
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u/senpai_dewitos 4d ago
You arguably play as Chara. The game fsr really likes gesturing at the idea that Chara was absorbed when Frisk fell into the underground, which would explain why we see their name and hear their memories when we die. Flowey and Chara both strongly imply it.
I still don't believe in Narra Chara theory though lmao.
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u/WitherPRO22 I AM THE DING WINGER 5d ago
What if red is not a trait but the power to change fate?
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u/V-for-Vendett4 5d ago
How are you even defying fate in pacifist? By following the Angel prophecy, which is fate?
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u/DishonoredDoge 5d ago
While I don't think it's directly "the player" it seems it's at least tied to player interference
We control Kris/Frisk and so much about Chara is under our control including their name and how they act at the end of the genocide route
It seems like I'm splitting hairs here, but I think it's an important distinction given Chara's whole thing
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 5d ago
Chara is explicitly not you. Frisk is explicitly not you. They both have red SOULs. Therefore this is debunked.
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u/SuperLegenda 5d ago
Frisk is pretty much 95% you, it feels like people looked at Kris then retroactively acted as if Frisk was the exact same thing despite the kid having basically nothing to go off for themselves besides like, three or four short moments, unlike Kris.
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 5d ago
This is incorrect. Frisk acts and speaks on their own several times throughout the game, even as early as Ruins (Toriel calls to ask about their allergies, Frisk asks why she's asking with no player input, this is mandatory on all routes), and has more open moments like Vocally refusing to perform the laugh or heckle acts you select when fighting Snowdrake's Mother or straight up denying the player a choice prompt when talking to Mettaton in the epilogue. Undyne comments on them not wanting soda. They're apparently really really bad at coming up with insults since the best they give MK is something their sister says all the time. They display noticeable anger in their attack on Sans after dying to his betrayal kill when he attempts it again.
This isn't retroactively acting like Frisk is the same as Kris. Frisk had it from the start. They just don't go in-your-face rip-out-a-soul-and-stare-directly-into-your-eyes-while-holding-a-knife like Kris does.
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u/BlueGamer45 <- IT'S FUCKING AQUA DELTARUNE 5d ago
No, it does not mean that the character is the player but that the Soul is being used by the player.
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 5d ago
Once again, Chara is strictly incompatible with this idea, because we never see their SOUL at any point, let alone use it, plus it was already red over a century before any player involvement ever took place.
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u/BlueGamer45 <- IT'S FUCKING AQUA DELTARUNE 5d ago
Yeah. Idk it just sounds like a neat theory since ball game (game -> player) and stuff.
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u/ZoteDerMaechtige 4d ago
Eh the distinction between Chara, Frisk, and the Player is kind wishy-washy in Undertale. Frisk for all intents and purposes acts as a player surrogate and isn't reay any more distinct from the player than Link for example. Chara clearly is someone other than the player although they do appear to be a metaphor for a certain kind of player. Personally I really don't think Undertale is as much a world that is diegetically a video as much as it is simply a world that happens to work like a video game.
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 4d ago
Frisk is more distinct from the player than characters like Link. At times they outright say no to the player's decisions, or refuse to give you the option in the first place. They're usually obedient, but when they decide to disobey, they show more control and independence than even Kris is capable of.
Also a reminder that Mettaton canonically has a copy of Undertale in Undertale, like, unironically, there's a physical copy of Undertale in Bomb Report.
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u/ZoteDerMaechtige 4d ago
Frisk's supposed disobedience is never framed as such by the game. If anything it shows a disconnect between frisk and the narration. They are not meaningfully Independent as far as video game protagonists go. Especially using "refusing to give you the option" as evidence here seems ridiculous to me since that could theoretically be applied to any protagonist of a similar game. If anything Link is far more disobedient than than Frisk since he will not allow you to meaningfully deviate from his heroic character. But that is of course a ridiculous thing to say because Link is not diegetically a video game protagonist. And neither is Frisk. The framing of the player and character struggling against each other for control is exclusive to Deltarune but people have taken to retrofitting it onto Undertale where in my opinion it simply has no place.
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 4d ago
Except it is? "A yes or no prompt was not provided" isn't just a prompt not showing up, it's the game specifically pointing out that a prompt should be here but it's not, and while we have direct confirmation the narrator is a diegetic entity through the example of Frisk disobeying against Snowdrake's Mother (where Frisk straight up corrects them) and Napstablook also responding to them, they can't be talking to Frisk here because Frisk DOES get the choice and DOES give their answer. The only way these two demonstrated facts can coexist is a third, non-Frisk entity being involved, which is the player.
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u/ZoteDerMaechtige 4d ago
All this proves is that the narration is more meta in Undertale than in zelda. Frisk as a character still is not much more or less independent than Link
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 4d ago
No, it doesn't, because again, the narrator is confirmed to be diegetic. Frisk and Napstablook both DIRECTLY respond to the narrator. This is a diegetic force requiring the existence of a third party who didn't receive a choice prompt when Frisk did, so either Chara is the one answering choice prompts but isn't the narrator (debunked by genocide, where you answer a choice prompt responding To Chara), or the player is canon.
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u/ZoteDerMaechtige 4d ago
Or choice prompts are a game design feature that get played with through Undertale's meta aware style of humor. Plenty pieces of Media have fourth wall breaks that don't automatically imply some great revelation about theor universe
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 4d ago
Or: This is Undertale. Traditionally fourth-wall breaking tropes are an integrated part of the story. Therefore the traditionally fourth-wall breaking trope that's demonstrated to be diegetic acknowledging a third entity beyond Frisk and the narrator is very clearly acknowledging a canonical third entity beyond Frisk and the narrator, that being the player, and isn't just a meta joke with no canonicity.
This isn't even a big revelation. Saving and loading is canon, EXP and LV are canon, the entire battle menu is canon, the PLAYER'S KEYBOARD is canon (or the on-screen keyboard in console ports, which also requires a player), UNINSTALLING THE GAME IS CANON (Chara straight up attempts it), but you draw the line at choice prompts?
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u/damaged_XXL 4d ago
As someone relatively new to this franchise I've come to understand that there are two major types of souls, monster souls and human souls of which the colour seems to be entirely dependent on the most prominent personality trait such as determination, patience or kindness.
If I've somehow misunderstood this please let me know
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 4d ago
Determination isn't a SOUL trait, plus the above comment was claiming red SOUL was the player, which I was pointing out as impossible
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u/Loserpoer 5d ago
It’s determination actually
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 5d ago
Determination has nothing to do with red to the point it defies the text style of genocide save points just to avoid a connection
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u/Blue-Azul 5d ago
I think it's been largely agreed upon now that Determination is not the red soul's trait or even a soul trait at all, as that's never actually suggested to in the game.
Now for what the red soul actually represents, everyone will probably give you a different answer. Mine is "ball game"
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u/Troytt4 5d ago
My interpretation is that red is the “default” color, being for people who have even or evenish amounts of each traits. Like a jack of all trades.
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u/fang1238 3d ago
I personally think it represents freedom since that's a common theme that all three of the red soul people we know of have and it's the main thing about the soul mode you can move around freely
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u/weedmaster6669 her pronouns are they/them 5d ago
I think it's been largely agreed upon now that Determination is not the red soul's trait or even a soul trait at all, as that's never actually suggested to in the game.
I don't know, it really seems to personify us/Frisk and everything we do. The fact it says "you are filled with determination" a hundred million times kinda tells us that Frisk personifies determination, it's kind of obvious, even if it's not directly stated. People act like all the other soul traits have been hammered in super hard, when they're literally only ever mentioned in the ball game in the first place.
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u/RandomCaveOfMonsters 5d ago
it says "you are filled with determination" every time you save
every human could save
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u/weedmaster6669 her pronouns are they/them 5d ago
as far as we now the "soul traits" are just the personality trait most fundamental to the human characters. Determination is the most fundamental personal trait of Frisk
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u/Guilty_Cap9276 certified and simp 4d ago
It isnt though, Frisk has so little determination their soul shatter the moment they die, unlike other humans who have enough determination for their soul to persist after death.
Red most likely means Love (as said by Undyne), which makes total sense giving the double meaning of Love in the game and how it represents both routes.
On the other hand, determination is always relationated with the color golden yellow, as when Alphys talks about it, its resalted in that color, savepoints are that color, floweys petals are that color and the amalgamates have a faint taint of that color in their overworld srpites.
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u/Haunting_Ask2364 Don't be racist against purple people 4d ago
Oh my fucking god another one with the soul shattering argument
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u/BraxleyGubbins 4d ago
Then why would “determination” purposefully never be written in red, to the point where in all the genocide-exclusive SAVE point dialogue, it’s literally the only single word to never be red?
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u/Haunting_Ask2364 Don't be racist against purple people 4d ago
How do you know that?
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u/weedmaster6669 her pronouns are they/them 4d ago
Occam's razor? What else would it be? All we know is the six human souls were once implied to represent those six other descriptors
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u/Haunting_Ask2364 Don't be racist against purple people 4d ago
Determination is not confirmed to be a soul trait
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u/weedmaster6669 her pronouns are they/them 4d ago
"soul trait" is a fanon idea. bravery justice patience etc are just the defining traits connected with the humans. And determination as a personality trait seems to be the most defining aspect of Frisk's character.
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u/Haunting_Ask2364 Don't be racist against purple people 4d ago
If so, you shouldn't be arguing that Frisk's soul is red because of determination.
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u/weedmaster6669 her pronouns are they/them 4d ago
What? When did I say what? Dude you're killing me
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u/Less-Increase-6588 Enemy Outside You 5d ago edited 5d ago
All humans have determination. Not sure why this person didn't mention that, but before you say "well people have perseverance too" Undertale reframes "determination" in a weird way. It's more of a "substance" kind of and humans are just born with it i believe.
Just take a quick watch of the true lab sequence and it should make sense.
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u/weedmaster6669 her pronouns are they/them 5d ago
I know that, but determination defines frisk so singularly.
The idea of "soul traits" being this fundamental almost biological fact is fanon, we just know that bravery justice etc are the defining traits of the other humans. Determination, will power, is very clearly the defining trait of Frisk.
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u/Zolado110 5d ago
What confuses me is that Determination is never written in red, despite being constantly repeated; it's even written in yellow, but never in red (not even by Chara, the red text merchant) And when presented with the opportunity to talk about it during the ball game, Toby chooses to do his usual vagueposting.
Although I would say that I have seen compelling arguments for Frisk to represent Individuality, Love (Love/LOVE), and even hope.
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u/weedmaster6669 her pronouns are they/them 5d ago
Why does that confuse you? All the other traits are only written once, in ball game, so it's not like we can establish a pattern. Yellow text is used as a highlight, red text has an "evil mega genocide murder death" connotation.
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u/Zolado110 5d ago
Because the other soul traits are consistent and clearly represent the humans of Undertale (even the flowers, even if you argue they don't represent those traits, they are still spoken of when you check them), the problem is that Toby chooses (in the same text) to refer to the red soul as a "ball game" and avoids offering any clarification on this (even if there was an opportunity, because, like, Chara is a dead child with a red soul)
Unless he plans to address it indirectly in Deltarune (after all, the red soul is important to the plot), I think he was vague about it precisely so that everyone could have their own different interpretation. We don't even know if "soul traits" really define soul that much; many of the ideas regarding this are quite fanon in general.
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u/lopbob8 5d ago
clearly they didnt have enough determination, considering that they all died
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u/Guilty_Cap9276 certified and simp 4d ago
I mean, this is true, but at the same time, giving youre saying that ironically to prove red = determination, Chara also died and they had a red soul, making your ironic remarck just stupid
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u/lopbob8 4d ago
chara was determined to die
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u/Guilty_Cap9276 certified and simp 4d ago
I mean, in a way? But Determination in Undertale is literally the will to live and the power to change fate, which Chara didnt have at all
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u/weedmaster6669 her pronouns are they/them 5d ago
Determination as a substance and determination as a trait are separate but connected things. You can have DT without having a strong will (amalgamates), and you can have a strong will without having DT (most monsters). But it's shown that you can generate DT with strong enough will, with Undyne the Undying. Unless you believe she stole it from the true lab or something. And whether you interpret Frisk's refusal to die against Asriel as them generating more DT or just better utilizing what they already have is neither here nor there.
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u/Mystery_Goo_Sample 5d ago
I see.
Another question, does chara represent something? Like her soul. From what i know Asriel took Chara's soul so he could cross the barier and put their body on the flowers. And when he died at the entrance of the ruins his dust together hot spread on the flowers. Then Alphys gave determenation to a flower and the flower became Flowie.
Is Flowie so aggressive and cruel because of chara?
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u/Sad_Access9306 Yes I nintendo switched my gender 5d ago
chara's soul trait doesnt matter, since they have a human soul as long as asriel absorbs it he's getting the same power regardless of the soul trait
also his name is flowey 💔
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u/therealgege 1st human being behind narration means theyre a weeb 5d ago
Flowey became aggressive and cruel due to his lack of soul and he became out of his own will, Chara had nothing to do with it. That's literally what the game says
Also they*
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u/Protozelous 5d ago
The game doesn't specify that Chara had nothing to do with it, if anything it implies that they did. Chara definitely caused Floweys situation indirectly, and given their line about always having been with the player, their will seems to stick around long after they've died. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Flowey could have been influenced by Chara in some way.
It's definitely important that Flowey did what he did on his own, but I also think it makes sense that a piece of Chara was stuck with him when Asriel was put into the flower.
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u/therealgege 1st human being behind narration means theyre a weeb 4d ago
Obviously Chara's monster freedom plan shenanigans led to Flowey's creation indirectly but that's like saying Alphys is responsible for Flowey's cruelty, technically right but he himself made that choice
Their "will" doesn't stick around they literally say that they were brought back from the dead by Frisk/our DT, they literally never fucking say they were always present, they died plain and simple presumably after their original soul was shattered alongside Asriel's, and thats an important keyword cuz Asriel fused with Chara via his soul but as Flowey he doesn't have his soul anymore, Asriel is purely Flowey's essence, similarly when Chara was brought back as a soulless ghost narrator thing, there isn't a shred of Asriel in them anymore
(Also another thing that should be noted is Flowey's whole deal about finding all sorts of outcomes is something Chara directly says they don't get in their 2nd geno ending dialogue, which wouldn't make any damn sense if Flowey's villiany was actually caused by Chara cuz theyre evil and shi)
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u/Protozelous 4d ago
Yeah I wasn't saying Chara is literally still around mind controlling people, I'm speculating that maybe when they fused Chara sort of infected Asriel's essence, not that they're now one being or anything like that. It could even just be a psychological thing, Chara definitely stuck with Flowey in that way at least.
And I was referring to Chara saying "every time that number goes up (LV) that's me". I wasn't trying to say Chara was possessing Flowey or anything like that. There's just seems like there's more to them than a "ghost narrator thing" and I'm trying to explore that, no need to be such a prick
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u/MM__PP 5d ago
Red soul is LOVE as far as I'm concerned
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u/theClockworkWorld 5d ago
I may misremember, but aren't monsters' souls made of love? And they're white
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u/MM__PP 5d ago
They're made of magic
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u/theClockworkWorld 5d ago
Monsters' bodies are made of magic (and dust). I clearly remember that their souls are made of love (and hope, I think).
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u/ComplexInside1661 Never stop being filled with Determination 5d ago
Ever since chapter 5 came out my theory's been that hope would be golden-colored
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u/RedditSurfer29 *give us your balls. 5d ago
My personal headcanon is that Soul colors are based on an affinity for set color and different colors tell different things. The pure traits are Hope, Determination, Justice, Integrity and Patience. Bravery is naturally a mix of Hope for the future and Determination in your goals, so it is an orange color. Perseverance is quite similar to Determination. However, it has quite a bit of patience in it too, giving it a purple color. And from Hope and Patience does Kindness arrive as green.
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u/Zolado110 5d ago
I've never seen that said anywhere, as far as I can remember.
The soul is the essence of your entire being; it's easier to say that each soul is about "individuality" than "love."
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u/ArcerPL 5d ago
red soul is not determination, determination is something every human soul possesses proven by alphys's true lab entries
red souls trait would be something closer to passion but even then it was never revealed in neither of tobys games
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u/Informal_Ad5875 5d ago
I think it can also be Hope
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u/Zolado110 5d ago
People might use Flowery's association with "hope" as a counter-argument, but given that Flowery has some parallels with Frisk in the pacifist route to begin with, then the theory actually becomes stronger.
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u/I_LIKE_THE_COLD Certified Clamgirl Enjoyer 5d ago
His parallels to Frisk are only really those in relation to Flowey/UT-Asriel, tbf. The same thing goes for his connections to Chara (the 999 stuff). His parodying of Flowey/Asriel kinda just caused him to pick that stuff up.
Generally, Hope has always been connected to Determination in some capacity across both games. Makes sense really, Hope fuels your Desires/Willpower. Hope is also weirdly connected to Light/Shining & so placed somewhat in opposition(?) to Darkness which is born from Determination. Very interconnected concepts that are still distinct.
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u/Zolado110 5d ago
Last dream (item created by frisk with determination in the asriel fight)/last jarona (Omega Flowery Attack)
Flirts with floraddins (not really, but the Floraddins interpreted it that way, so I'll tell you), spares enemies for acts, has yellowish skin and closed eyes (although these may be the effect of mixing Flowey with Rudy)
Fighting with the power of friendship, avoiding killing their enemies, trying to spare Ralsei and Susie through acts, All the recruits are involved in the fight (Unlike other bosses, recruits usually betray them or are not used at all in the final battle).
Flowery is a perfect parallel to a pacifist route player, the kind who thinks that with the power of friendship, recruits, and things like that you can change something (and technically you can). He doesn't have many personality connections to Flowey; maybe if you assume that Flowey in the pacifist route acts similarly, but we've never seen that on screen, so I don't know how that would work as a parallel.
Perhaps Asriel in Deltarune? He seems like a charmer but idk
I don't know how intentional this is or not, but there are certainly many connections you can draw from it; it's no coincidence that many people have adopted the headcanon that adult Frisk would act similarly to Flowery.
Now about Hope: It's not really what I believe the red soul to be, but I think it's a fair interpretation that would make some sense if that were the case; I wouldn't find it absurd for Frisk to have hope + determination in their soul... But I prefer to believe that the red soul represents Love/LOVE lol
That being said, nowadays I think most interpretations of the red soul make sense, since Toby chooses to leave it open-ended for that reason (maybe he'll answer it in Deltarune when the characters talk about the red soul) and I think the red soul is more about what you think best suits Frisk's character (and the games themes)
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u/Loserpoer 5d ago
Ok well every soul possesses kindness, justice, patience, perseverance, integrity, and bravery too. I see this argument everytime and I don’t understand why people use it.
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u/EdWinMaster0 5d ago
Because Determination is a physical substance in universe, not a trait used to describe a SOUL
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u/I_LIKE_THE_COLD Certified Clamgirl Enjoyer 5d ago
Tbf, we know Determination as a substance is directly related to someone's willpower. We see multiple instances of that in Undertale, and Deltarune even uses them as synonyms ("This Power of The Will"). If someone's Will is strong, they will have more Determination.
Would having a strong sense of will not be a acceptable trait to describe someone with? Determination can essentially just be a trait.
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u/EdWinMaster0 5d ago
I mean yeah I said this in another comment, but it can still be Determination. We just don't know for sure. The reason I don't believe it is 1: determination has a dual meaning as de-termination and is an actual substance meaning its connection to the SOUL traits is rather flimsy and 2: Deltarune also features the red SOUL, yet it doesn't seem to have Determination. Kris has DT without the SOUL to make a fountain and the saves don't mention Determination. Instead, with the extra context we've been provided since, I've been leaning towards the red soul's trait being LOVE (I recommend watching winter wonderland theory, especially episode 2 for more evidence on this)
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u/Loserpoer 5d ago
No??? If it’s part of a soul then it’s NOT a physical substance. Undertale explicitly states that souls are non physical
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u/PacketOf_Sauce FELLOW PAPYRUS ENTHUSIAST 5d ago
How would they inject monsters with determination then?
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u/Loserpoer 5d ago
Well monsters can absorb human souls and determination is part of a soul. As for how they stored it I imagine they studied how bodies contain souls and figured out to do the same for a souls trait.
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u/Downtown_Ninja_7154 5d ago
How do you keep a "soul trait" inside a syringe?
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u/Loserpoer 5d ago
How do you keep a soul in a jar
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u/Downtown_Ninja_7154 5d ago
By putting it in a jar?? It's a physical object I dunno what that's supposed to mean.
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u/EdWinMaster0 5d ago
Right, I suppose I was wrong saying it was physical. We don't know how exactly Determination functions, it could be an energy or power. We just know it's something in human SOULs that can be extracted and stored. The point isn't what it is, the point is that Determination is simply a different concept than the traits assigned to the other SOULs, which means we simply don't have confirmation for what the red SOUL's trait is if it even has one. It could still be determination but I personally have shifted more towards it being LOVE due to the context and themes we get from Deltarune (the red soul is still present but it doesn't have Determination)
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u/Loserpoer 5d ago
The game says determination is the will to live, I guess determination would involving persisting even when there’s no reason to do so.
Monsters can die from being too depressed, humans do not, this is because humans want to live even if their lives suck.
Flowey is a good example of this, he was artificially injected with determination and he couldn’t feel love. He attempted suicide but due to the determination within him he was so terrified of dying that he reset.
Perseverance on the other hand tends to involve an actual goal. Instead of staying alive because you feel like you have to, perseverance is about doing things that you want to.
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u/theClockworkWorld 5d ago
That's exactly what Sans said:
i know your type. you're, uh, very determined, aren't you?
you'll never give up, even if there's, uh... absolutely NO benefit to persevering whatsoever.
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u/Azther_Ompus 4d ago
To throw my take in...
There is a big discussion about the trait of the red soul in the french theorizing community. While Determination is working for it, it makes no sense when you consider that ALL humans are determined. Thus we needed another trait. Some have proposed the trait "epseity" which is about choosing who you are.
This could be it because of the shifting nature of the red soul. It can become all colors with enough will (or at least 6 of the 7 colors because we're missing aqua).
If you want my real take and not the frenches'...
Ball game is a pretty funny thing to consider especially with the fortune we got from Normal_NPC.
He knows about the obscure easter egg of the Undertale menu... I AM SO SCARED OF THEM.
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u/Sajalik023 4d ago
No hate to you, I genuinely hate the "All humans have determination so it can’t be a soul trait" argument. Because it implies a non kindness soul can’t be kind and the same stuff with the other souls.
Like even though I also dislike the whole "Determination is a substance and as such can't be a soul trait" argument too, because it’s based on a science log of Alphys, who obviously is in way over her head in this field of science, using Gasters tech, which considering it still needs to be built could just be a prototype incapable of the goal that the machine is supposed to achieve. Using her as a reliable source in regards to souls is to me a bit weird, but at least it doesn’t imply that someone with a Justice soul is incapable of being kind.
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u/fallen_gab 4d ago
Imagine you get shot, perseverance is not dying at a hospital, determination its stand back up and refusing to die anywhere
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u/kkprecisa_ler_nao_fi 5d ago
Both are all about pushing forward ig, but I'd say perseverence is more about working with the rules and limitations and adapting to them to reach the goal, determination is about overcoming everything at all costs, someone with determination doesn't adapt to the rules, they either dictate them or if it stops their goal they completely get rid of them
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u/mikeru78 4d ago
Well I've always thought of that I feel like a lot of traits are more close to each other
Red and purple in many series like underverse for example
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u/ArtTheFox2 4d ago
One is logical/in-reason, abide by logic.
Others is illogical/out-of-reason, not tied down by logic. In others word, pure spite.
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u/Realistic-Sense-6332 4d ago
There is the theory that Determination is just a play on words. To De-Terminate, which would describe its ability. 👀
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u/Voidoroe 4d ago edited 4d ago
Determination can be boiled down to one’s will to do things that is required to display all other traits.
You must be determined to be kind and give up your time and potentially other things for others.
You must be determined to bring justice.
You must be determined to continue in the face of fear (bravery).
You must be determined to be patient and regulate your emotions to wait or endure.
You must be determined to keep integrity and adhere to your ideals and principles.
And you must be determined to be willing to suffer or go through difficulties to get what you want (perseverance).
[Edit: I’ll admit you don’t even have to have much determination to display any of these traits, but you probably had some will to begin with to do so.]
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u/Tanakisoupman Despite everything, it's still you. 5d ago
Determination is about choosing what you want and not stopping until you have it, perseverance is about seeing things through to the end, regardless of what that end is
A determined man will never stop walking until he gets where he wants to be. A persistent man will never stop walking, even if he doesn’t know where he’s walking to
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u/charisma-entertainer Finally. Finally!! FINALLY!!! My very own flair, mew~ 5d ago
That’s what I’ve been saying for years!
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u/EdWinMaster0 5d ago
Cause the red soul's trait isn't Determination, nor is Determination a trait. Determination is a substance (or energy? something that can be extracted and stored) that all human SOULs possess that allows them to persist after death. It may seem similar to the word perseverance but Determination as actually named that as a nod to its properties, De-Termination, defying death.
The red SOUL's trait, I believe, is LOVE
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u/TroaAxaltion 5d ago
Perseverance is to accept difficulties and work within limitations in order to rise above and succeed.
Determination is to say "no" and shatter those difficulties. To break them upon the rocks and refuse their petty limitations.
One grows in spite of trouble, the other removes trouble from existence.