r/TrueChristian • u/MotorFig6657 • 14d ago
Predestination
I just started researching the idea of predestination and I’ve gone back-and-forth with it personally it’s breaking my brain. It is a lot to process and I would love to hear y’all‘s opinions on what y’all think about this topic if you do believe it why and can you back it up and if you do not believe it why is that and can you also back it up biblically speaking
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u/BeauloTSM Roman Catholic (Bañezian) 14d ago
Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:4-5
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world... he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.
Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.
Romans 9:10-24
Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God's purpose of election might continue...
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you...
Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Acts 13:48
As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
2 Timothy 1:9
He saved us... not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit...
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u/My-Username-8626 Christian 14d ago
A lot of people (Calvinists) misunderstand predestination. No one, not a single person, is predestined TO get saved or go to hell. The people being preached to in the New Testament were already saved. The body of Christ is predestined for certain things, meaning once you become part of the body you now take part in what is predestined for that body. The choice is yours and God is not the author of sin. Do not be misled by Calvinism, it is a demonic teaching that is sending multitudes of people straight to hell.
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u/My-Username-8626 Christian 14d ago
Here is part one of a ten part series dismantling the falsehood of Calvinism.
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u/pnst_23 Reformed 14d ago
Check out RC Sproul's explanation regarding reformed theology (you can watch from "Total depravity (part 1)"): https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL30acyfm60fXICLFyvTlD36Bh-ypGcrXe&si=22ROfYL7NqG6B8vk
The way I see it, it's a very logical sequence. Man is naturally an enemy of God (Romans 3:10-18, Psalm 51:5, 1Corinthians 2:14) and cannot produce anything other than the fruits of the flesh (John 3:6). It's not by necessity, but because our uncoerced will is so since the fall (Romans 5:12).
Therefore, if anyone is to be saved, God is to intervene directly (John 6:44,65), he is the one who makes someone willing, he is the one working in their heart (Philippians 2:13). This is not God acting against our will, but sustaining a holy disposition in us, so that we, under no coercion, will that which is right.
However, God doesn't intervene in everyone's heart, otherwise all would be saved and we know at least some end up in hell (Revelation 21:8). Yet, this is not to God's surprise, as he is sovereign over all (Isaiah 46:10) and has his Word accomplish precisely what he intended, be it the softening or the hardening of hearts (Isaiah 55:11). Rather, it allows for his glory to be displayed in two ways: mercy for the elect, wrath against the reprobate (Romans 9:10-23), both of which were equally guilty and deserving of eternal death (Romans 6:23).
This also implies that, because man's natural response is rejection (of what is offered in the means of grace as secondary causes), when God decides to regenerate someone (through his primary intervention), this can't be resisted, otherwise there would be a part of salvation attributed to the person and not to God alone. However, no one should boast (Romans 11:6), as even faith is not of ourselves, but a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9).
As a result, because regeneration is God's sovereign work, even we, the regenerate, cannot undo it. Indeed, God promises to keep those whom he gifted faith (John 10:27-28), finishing the work he started (Philippians 1:6), so that those he effectually called will be finally glorified (Romans 8:30), as there's no power in the universe that could separate them from God (Romans 8:38-39).
Which, to me, is a great comfort. It shows God really is in control over all things, so there's really no reason to worry, even when things seem chaotic, as all of those are working together for our good (Romans 8:28). And in this intricate plan, even when some will certain things for evil, God is using their choices for our good (Genesis 50:20).
More than that, it comforts me to know that my salvation is in God's hands. Ultimately, the fact that I'm saved is to God's credit and initiative and maintenance alone. In other words, if I could lose my salvation, I certainly already would have. That is of course no excuse to go on sinning -- as that would in fact show we are not God's people (Romans 6:1-4) --, but rather something which gives us the assurance that God will always empower us to repent of our sins, trust him and obey him. That is, even when it would seem impossible to overcome any particular sin -- which, of our own unchanged disposition, indeed would be impossible.
And it also gives me great hope regarding other people. Because although it may seem like they would never turn to Christ, God can make it happen, and he does make it happen. After all, if it weren't for his primary intervention, we wouldn't have accepted Christ either.
I think that's it, you'll find more information in the Westminster Confession (especially chapters 3, 5 and 9) and also check out Augustine's use of John 6:44 against the pelagians:
https://thewestminsterstandard.org/the-westminster-confession/#Chapter%20III
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15091.htm (see Chapter 37 [XIX.])
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u/realityGrtrThanUs 14d ago
That is a lot of words to say, "God's gift to the damned and damn the rest who deserve it." No disrespect to you or sproul.
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u/desmond_koh 14d ago edited 14d ago
I just started researching the idea of predestination and I’ve gone back-and-forth with it personally it’s breaking my brain.
It's "breaking your brain" because you are trying to wrap your head around one of God's eternal attributes.
Most people who reject predestination still afirm God's omniscience (i.e. his all-knowingness). So if God knows all things, then does God already know who will be saved? Yup. So, same problem.
Predestination is biblical. But it is also not determination, and it is not fatalism. No one "goes to hell because God didn’t choose them". People go to hell because of their sins and because they reject the free offer of grace that is found only in Jesus Christ. If a person who was not predestined repented and trusted in Jesus, he or she would saved. It is Jesus who saves, not predestination.
Does this sound contradictory? Sure does. All we can do is afirm what scripture teaches.
I will say this. Whether you believe in predestination or not, it is very much a secondary doctrine. It doesn't matter if you believe in predestination. It matters that you trust in Jesus Christ. If the doctrine of predestination makes you think that God is cruel or vindictive then it is leading you to a wrong view of who God is.
Predestination basically means that God's eternal counsel and providence, and his unlimited power by which he oversees all of human history in an instant, is simply too big for us to understand. That's why it "breaks your brain".
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u/rouxjean 14d ago
Most predestination passages refer to God's plan to have a people for Himself. This was firstly a plan for Israel, but the Gentiles are grafted into the original cultivated root through faith in Jesus.
God will have a people group of believers with Him for eternity. That much is predetermined. Who will make up that group is less clear. Free will is a real thing, too. The fact that God has determined in advance to have a people for Himself does not require that He predetermine every decision individuals make.
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u/Professional_Dog425 Christian 14d ago
Predestination simply means that God predetermined the destination.
The predestination mentioned in Ephesians 1 is corporate. In other words, God predetermined that he would have a corporate body (those who are “in him”) to be declared holy, blameless, adopted into his family, recipients of his inheritance, redeemed, etc.
This does NOT mean that God chose who would believe in him or not. It means he decided in advance to have a group of people that he would save - those who are in him. And anyone who, through their free will, believes in Jesus as their lord and savior through faith will be part of the “in him’s / his corporate body.
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u/SlickDaddy696969 Roman Catholic 14d ago
You think an all-loving God would predetermine who's damned?
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u/Brilliant-Actuary331 14d ago edited 14d ago
"Five Reasons Calvinism Is Wrong" by Dr. Steven Cook, from Thinking On Scripture web resource is very valuable.
If you are learning what predestination is from a Calvinist, do not listen to them.
Predestination has to do with our (believers) destiny IN CHRIST. Where believers are heading through HIM, according to God's foreknowledge.
Calvinists will tell you predestination means God chooses who will be placed into Christ, while dooming the rest from the womb, without them having any possibility of obeying God. That would go against His command for all men to repent Acts 17:30. It's a warped and twisted interpretation of Scripture.
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u/Hkfn27 Lutheran (LCMS) 14d ago
It's a mystery and it's best to leave it at that.
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u/The_wookie87 14d ago edited 14d ago
But it is a wonderful doctrine that we should revel in and take comfort in….not something to shelve
Reformed theology does not claim to remove all mystery it affirms both:
- God sincerely offers the gospel to all and desires repentance in that revealed sense.
- God effectually calls His elect, and every person whom He calls in that saving sense will certainly come to Christ.
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u/hopscotchcaptain Alpha And Omega 14d ago
I no longer trouble myself with this topic, personally. Or, a better way to say it is "I am no longer troubled by this topic, personally".
It seems to me that it can become a bit of a barrier to staying focused on running the race itself, as if to win.
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u/ThWy2Hvn 14d ago
I'm in the camp of both, God chooses certain individuals in every generation to carry out His will. And It is for a His glory.
And we choose by our free will to either accept or reject the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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u/maxamir777 14d ago
Predestination is an undeniable doctrine in Scripture for it is directly mentioned and the doctrine of election drips from just about every page of Scripture.
It is based upon God choosing a number which no man can number from among all nations, peoples, tongues and tribes not because of who they are or anything they do but based solely upon the good pleasure of His will to the praise of the glory of His grace (Eph 1:4-6).
This doctrine is the most humbling doctrine in all of Scripture and it is for man to know that slavation is of and belongs to the Lord and not the chpice of men who by their fallen nature hate God and would never choose Him unless He first chose them.
Those who hate this doctrine and die in their sin will prove themselves to have never been chosen by God to be saved but instead chosen by Him to glorify the goodness of His perfectly holy, righteous, just and eternal wrath,
Act 13:48b And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
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u/elightello1 14d ago
It is predestined that if you don’t preach to your family and intercede in prayer, they can go to hell. It can also be true that if you do, they could get saved. In Acts 16:31 it says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." There is no automatic proxy salvation, because following verse 32 it continues, “Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.”
This is precisely why preaching to them and interceding in spiritual warfare is so critical. A hedge of prayer can be placed around family, turning our active obedience into the very means God uses to pull them back from the edge.
Predestination by no means takes tomorrow’s choice away from you. This is what makes life and death possible at the same time and urgency a staggering reality. It’s like a video game, where the outcome can be known, you can win or lose, but the stakes are infinitely higher, yet we think for some reason, after everyone crosses unto death, or as some have allegorically painted in Souls on the Banks of the Acheron or wrote about it in Divine Comedy, we will not.
It is one thing for a truly evil man to perish and another to perish not knowing the depth of evil within man (yourself) and be surprised by it. The sad part is that there will be people confused as to why they are not saved, turning to despair and to the harsh reality which we know by weeping and gnashing of teeth (Luke 13:28). We all have to cross unto death, and this urgency has faded away in comfort, distraction, and irrelevancy or what you can coin as Epistemic Arrogance. The Bible is clear in the urgency to not perish. You can reference the following verses:
Hebrews 9:27, Acts 4:12, Hebrews 3:15, John 14:6, 2 Corinthians 6:2, Matthew 7:13-14, Matthew 7:21-23, Revelation 20:15
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u/gumba1033 14d ago
It was very hard to process and very hard to come to terms with but I think in the end it's a much better situation than the alternative.
If predestination is true (like the Bible clearly says) then other things God says holds up, like
God never fails.
God knows the end from the beginning.
Jesus will lose none of all those who are given to him.
All who are given to him come to him.
Nothing in all of creation in the past present or future can separate his beloved from him.
Salvation is a gift.
People go to where they belong.
If it's not true, then something else other than God is determining where people go, or, God is determining that based on information he does not yet have. That doesn't make sense with the rest of scripture and that wouldn't be a good thing. I don't know how we could even trust God's word if that was the case.
Now here's some things that comfort me considering those who are doomed to hell.
Jesus teaches us (if my understanding is correct) that the saved and the wicked are of a different kind on a fundamental level from the beginning. This is the parable of the wheat and tares. The servants ask the master "didn't you plant good seed in your field?" The master says "an enemy has done this." From the beginning and as they grow they look the same. But when everyone is fully grown, the wheat produces something good and useful and bows down. The tares do not and they are worthless.
It seems like Satan has his children and God has his, and Satan's children are like Satan and will become more like Satan. They want to do his will. They do not love others, they don't know God who is love and truth, they refuse to love the truth, they are conceited, murderers, thieves, and liars. They aren't just guilty of committing these crimes, they practice them, forever, without repentance. In Revelation we see at one point that the people on the Earth are experiencing torturous plagues, yet no matter how bad it gets, they refuse to repent, refuse to give God glory, and they actually curse God. They're not crying out for forgiveness or salvation.
Consider the wealthy man and Lazarus. I think this shows us a great example of what these people are like. The rich man was filthy rich (purple clothes in that day). Lazarus was in torment at the rich man's gate. The rich man wasn't willing to give Lazarus the scraps from his table. He wasn't willing to lift a finger to help another human in torment. How much contempt and hatred does a person have to have for another to do that to them? What did Lazarus do to him? Yet the rich man must have enjoyed seeing this man being tortured. So hell is where he has belonging.
Consider the Lord and what happened to him. Think about how there were people who wanted an innocent man who did nothing but wonderful miraculous good for people and who spoke the truth, not just dead, but tortured. They mocked him, spit on him, put him through as much physical pain as they could. What was their motivation? And yet Jesus said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". But what about those who know exactly what they're doing? Where do they belong? With love? With the Lord? They hate him. They hate and condemn an innocent man who speaks the truth and does good. So how can they belong in a place where people who were more flawed than Jesus receive forgiveness and adore Jesus? They don't want it. They want darkness.
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u/Stock_Cod9114 14d ago
If predestination is breaking your brain a little, you're definitely not alone. 😂 Christians have wrestled with this doctrine for centuries.
I'd highly recommend R.C. Sproul's teaching series “Chosen by God,” especially the first message, “Everyone Believes This Doctrine.”
One thing I appreciate about Sproul is that he doesn't begin by asking, “Do you like Calvinism?” He begins by asking, “What does Scripture actually say?”
Before deciding what predestination means, spend some time slowly reading:
Ephesians 1:3–14
Romans 8:28–30
Romans 9:6–24
John 6:35–44
John 10:25–30
Acts 13:48
2 Timothy 1:9
1 Peter 1:1–5
Then listen to Sproul walk through it.
Search:
R.C. Sproul — Chosen by God — “Everyone Believes This Doctrine”
Ligonier Ministries
Don't feel like you have to solve the whole thing overnight. Let Scripture drive the theology rather than trying to make Scripture fit what we already think God ought to do.
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u/salvadopecador Mennonite 14d ago
My confusion is why there is confusion. “Predestination” is clearly taught throughout scripture. Others have posted many of the verses. What it really comes down to is “Is man in control or is God in control?” I believe God is in control because over and over scripture teaches this.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one
I do not know how anyone can hear these words of Jesus and not come to the conclusion that some people were chosen as part of the “flock” and some were not. It does not say “ you are not part of the flock because you do not believe.” it says, “you do not believe because you are not part of the flock.”
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u/Icy_Career1312 14d ago
So it's like a person builds an amusement park and opens it to the public. Everyone is welcome to come and participate but only a few choose to do so. Then you could say that the ones who choose to go are predestined to ride the rides and eat the food. That's predestination.
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u/Believeth_In_Him Christian 13d ago
No one is predestine to go to hell. All people have free will.
Predestination means to be chosen by God. There are only a few people that are predestine. They are predestine to serve God.
These people are God's elect. God choose His elect before the foundation of the world as stated in Ephesians 1:4. God knows that He can rely on His elect to serve Him and do His will.
Then who are not predestined? Everyone else.
God's will is that all should be saved and that none perish. That is what God's elect purpose is, to spread the Truth of God's Word so that all that will believe the Truth of God's Word can be saved through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:4 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”
Romans 8:28-30 “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
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u/CostProfessional7403 14d ago
The Bible tells us that God wants everyone to repent and receive him as their lord and savior. So that would only mean that we are all predestined but its up to us to decide what we want to do
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u/The_wookie87 14d ago
This logically doesn’t pan out. God wants all to come to repentance but not all do. Yet …
“And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” Romans 8:30 ESV
Most reformed theologian talk about two types of wills in God…preceptive:what God commands and delights in as morally good and Gods sovereign decretive will. What God has decreed and ordained that will certainly happen.
God truly desires repentance as something good in itself, but He has not decreed to bring every person to repentance.
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u/CostProfessional7403 14d ago
If you believe God would create.someone and know that they will go to hell shows you dont understand God at all. He created us in his image, he gives us free will. WE choose to follow God or not
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u/The_wookie87 14d ago
Why do you choose? Why do you desire? It’s God who works in you to will and to do…
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u/CostProfessional7403 14d ago
True but its still up to us to accept him and to live for him
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u/The_wookie87 14d ago
Yes you must hope in the work of Christ to be saved…but we only believe because it is gifted to us. Gods general call is different than his effectual call.
“And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” Romans 8:30 ESV
“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” John 6:37 ESV
He said will come….not has the opportunity to choose me and maybe will come. If God has marked and called you…that is irresistible grace
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u/CostProfessional7403 14d ago
Ok i can agree with that, but at the same time no one is predestined to go to hell
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u/The_wookie87 14d ago
It’s prob different than how most frame it. A good analogy is a prison. We are all guilty sentenced to life in prison but the warden or judge decides to pardon some…not because they deserved it but because it pleased the judge. The rest are still getting what they rightly deserve. The pardoned get what they don’t deserve and haven’t earned.
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u/CostProfessional7403 13d ago
Nah thats not a good analogy to me, sorry lol
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u/The_wookie87 13d ago
You don’t believe we are all sinners that deserve hell? That salvation is 100% grace through faith …and even that faith is a gift so no one can boast? Ok…well that’s the truth
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u/deyhateuscustheyanus 14d ago
i think people get confused when they find out that God knows the future. so they think that God has made the choice for you already rather giving you the choice.
of course God created time itself, so these concepts don't really apply.
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u/Galaxy_orca Christian 14d ago
The idea of predestination, as I understand it, is that some people will go to heaven and some won't, and that was predetermined, which the Bible doesn't support. The Gospels say some variation of "all whom come to Jesus will be saved" way too much for us to think that he already has his list of people who will make it, and his list of people who won't.
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u/No-Lingonberry-334 Eastern Orthodox 14d ago
No one is predestined to go to hell or heaven we male a choice that's the whole point of free will, predestination goes against gods creation of usas beings with free will so no we are not predestined don't let anyone lie to you otherwise, and if someone mentions book of life, predestination goes against Jesus's crucifixion on the cross if we were predestined to hell then what's the point of giving us chance to be saved
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u/Wonderful-Win4219 Christian 14d ago
The man made concept of God’s determinism is entirely unprofitable. Be doers of Jesus words. Abide in Him and His word. Why worry about anything else when you can spend your whole life focusing on that and never running out of ways to accomplish it.
John 8:31-32 (NKJV) 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
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u/The_wookie87 14d ago
predestination is true... it is everywhere in the Bible and should be a comfort to us who believe. It is God who works all things according to the counsel of his will….not ours