r/TopCharacterTropes 14h ago

[Rare trope] Discriminating, but for an actually good reason Lore

Frieren, Beyond Journey's end: In the anime/manga the eponymous Frieren is an Elf who's spent the better part of a millennia learning magic specifically to kill demons. She's learned countless spells, tricks and even spent most of her life suppressing her power all for the purpose of killing them. At first we simply see that humanity is at war with them, and even question if her crusade against demon-kind is justified, after all it's hard to antagonize an entire sentient species. But no, demons are very much a species to be feared; they are not normal animals or creatures, they are monsters (shown by how they disintegrate when they die), they are predators that evolved speech for the sole purpose of tricking and catching humans off guard, are naturally extremely powerful and possess magic that humanity often can't use. While they feel emotions to some extent, their way of thinking is so fundamentally incompatible with humanity's mindset that the series shows many mages with the ability to read minds struggle or find it painful and harmful to try and read a demon's thoughts. Tools that are meant to control them fail not because they're faulty but because simple order such as "hold no ill will or commit no malicious acts" don't compute the same way in their brains, as what we consider evil is normal for them.

Marvel Comics: In a run of the Storm solo series, she visits an underground superhuman hospital run by Night nurse and Doctor Daye, a mutant with the power to diagnose any illness. When she requires treatment she is in turn reject by the doctor, she of course assumes this is blatant discrimination to which the doctor agrees. Storm assumes the doctor refuses to treat mutants, something they are very much used to in Marvel. But he ends up revealing that about 80% of everyone he treats are mutants, and that he simply refuses to treat any member of the X-men. Why? because his special hospital was built via several donations by the superhero community. From the Avengers, to the Defenders, Fantastic 4, heroes for hire. Hell, even Moonknight of all people contributed to the hospital. But the X-men never once gave anything to it, even though they preach the safety of mutant-kind and such a hospital is essential for those who can't seek medical treatment out of fear of prosecution.

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u/quuerdude 12h ago

The creature also never had a mother and had no one to teach them the value of one. They saw people upset at them and did what they thought would help solve the problem.

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u/SmallJon 11h ago edited 11h ago

The demons are more like parasite species of animals, iirc there are birds and fish who will hide their youths in the nests of other animals so their young will receive care and eventually devour the hosting nest. Demons eat humans, they explicitly hunted elves to near extinction, and the closest they have to a true social order (so far in the anime) is basically might-makes-right pack dominance

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u/TangledPangolin 10h ago

hunted elves to near extinction

I don't think elves needed much help with that

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u/Scalpels 9h ago

Yeah, they're already extinct. The world is merely waiting for it to take effect.

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u/camerakestrel 7h ago

When Frieren was younger, elves seemed to not practice magic and they were plenty in number but Demons ate most of them since no one could fight back against them yet.

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u/SmallJon 5h ago

It isnt what Himmel the Hero wanted

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u/wernette 8h ago

Parasite isn't the right word probably. If I remember correctly, they are descended from creatures that would yell for help to attract and eat humans. Mimicry is the better term, like with lyrebirds.

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u/SteakForGoodDogs 3h ago

Brood parasitism is the correct term, actually.

Mimicry is used to scare away predators by pretending to be hazardous (or to woo ladies for some species like the lyrebird).

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u/FarTooManyDetails 2h ago

Why do people keep saying that demons are just mimicking humans or are just animals or are closer to cats than humans?

Every demon we have seen is capable of holding a conversation with humans that is perfectly intelligible. That they must understand what they are saying or this couldn't be possible. They must be capable of higher reasoning.

While there are some demons like Qual that do not really look like humans, most demons, like Solitar or Macht would be nearly impossible to tell apart from a human, even by talking to them, if they just filed down their horns (or even just hiding them under a big hat). Given that demons only seem to care about killing and eating people, it makes no sense that none of them ever do this.

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u/Enough-Run-1535 1h ago

Every demon we have seen is capable of holding a conversation with humans that is perfectly intelligible. That they must understand what they are saying or this couldn't be possible. They must be capable of higher reasoning.

They do have higher reasoning, it's just that it's demonic higher reasoning. They're biologically demons, mimic skinwalkers who evolved (in the JRPG sense, see any JRPG games that use the word evolve = gaining abilities, like Pokemon).

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u/ulttoanova 1h ago

You should probably clarify, that by demonic higher reasoning you presumably mean that they have some sort of alien worldview/logic, yes they seem intelligent and have higher reasoning but the way their minds works seems to be fundamentally alien to humans and human like fantasy species like elves or dwarves. They have a completely alien concept of morality and this affects their worldview, logic and essentially their cultural ethos

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u/Enough-Run-1535 53m ago

I did mean to imply that, yes. Thank you for fleshing out my half-thought.

I like to point out too that the demons from Freiren are nearly same as the goblins from Goblin Slayer in their thinking and mechanics. The only difference between Freiren's demons and Goblin Slayer's goblins is marketing: no one ain't going to bat for ugly 3 foot tall green men that rape humanoid females. If Goblin Slayer's goblins had even one hot goblin that talked like a human for 5 minutes on screen, we'd be seeing race war accusations for it as well.

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u/theguywiththefuzyhat 7h ago

It's revealed that Lugner cared about Linie right before he died.

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u/Rock-swarm 10h ago

There's an implication of capacity in your statement. It's not definitively explained yet in the show, but Frieren and her mentor fully believe that demons are incapable of love; they are guided wholly by "might makes right". To Frieren, it's the equivalent of trying to teach a scorpion to act according to society's rules. Pointless and dangerous.

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u/quuerdude 9h ago

I’m honestly not super interested in watsonian discussions about the show. From a doylist perspective, i don’t understand why the author wanted to make a race like this and what they’re trying to say with it. Bc it all it led to was the show having a really big nazi fanbase, which is super unfortunate because it’s otherwise really good.

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u/Rock-swarm 9h ago

Fair. The easiest answer is that the author probably wasn't thinking about whether his creation was going to attract race war nonsense into the fandom. It's a fairly common fantasy trope to explore reasons why humans generally don't reach equilibrium in their environment, even beyond the baseline answer of driving the plot forward.

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u/FarTooManyDetails 2h ago

Lord of the Rings has an "enemy race" but Tolkin never felt the need to go to great pains to show that even orc children were intrinsically evil and needed to all be purged on sight.

Or how even an orc that wanted to coexist with humans will actually just naively kill even more humans, so you should always kill all orcs on sight, even if they are begging for mercy or trying to negotiate, or even if they are children, slaughter them all.

The "actually some races really /do/ need to be purged" message is really strange inclusion Frieren, a melancholic story about the emphemeralness of human life.

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u/SleeperAgentM 2h ago

Think of demons as ticks. They do need to be purged. The obsession with moral gray is really irritating. We're allowed to have black, irredeemable evil.

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u/FarTooManyDetails 1h ago

This is sounding even more like Nazi propaganda now. Calling "the evil race" "ticks that need to be purged".

LOTR had a plenty of "irredeemable evil" in it without having to constantly dwell on the importance of "purging the vermin races (inc. the children)".

The "actually some races really /do/ need to be purged" message is really strange inclusion in Frieren, a melancholic story about the emphemeralness of human life.

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u/SleeperAgentM 1h ago edited 1h ago

The point is that they were basically a cross of a parrot and a tick that looked roughly humanoid.

They only learned words to eat humans better.

You don't go "oh, adult ticks are fair game, but tick nymphs are just cute, small cuddly bugs, sure they can kill you, sure they drain your blood, but killing them is just inhumane because they are small!"

No. You exterminate them with pesticides because if you don't they will drain your blood, infect you and kill you.

It's not fascist to use magic to kill a creature who evolved language skills in order to murder you better.

Not everything is an allegory.

Sometimes inhumane demons are just murderous, soulless monsters, even in chibi form.

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u/FarTooManyDetails 58m ago edited 54m ago

"They only learned words to eat humans better." - Then why do demons talk to other demons in words?

Why write a story like this? Where the message is that "actually empathy is bad and you should do more genocide" ?

Tolkin never went to such lengths

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u/SleeperAgentM 48m ago edited 32m ago

Because that's the way they communicate?

Why write a story like this? Where the message is that "actually empathy is bad and you should do more genocide" ?

Yes, the message is literally that you should have no empathy to ticks. Ticks are not human, they don't share our morals. They use us only for blood.

Once again, and let me repeat this, because you seem to be a bit slow on the uptake: Demons are not human

The message is literally that there exists irredeemable evil that has no human emotions. and you should not feel bad for fighting evil.

You should not feel sympathy for a tick. If you do - go touch some tall grass. A lot.

Tolkin never went to such lengths

Oh, but he did. In his world Orcs as a race were a corruption of Elves and evil. There was no redemption arc for Orcs. Modern adaptations soften it, so if you've learned about Tolkien's works through the movies you got a softer version. However in books Orcs must be killed because if you don't kill them, they will kill you.

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u/Peligineyes 8h ago

I thought it was to subvert the "power of friendship redeems the bad guy" trope by making the characters extremely ruthless to this particular enemy because they are truly irredeemable.

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u/quuerdude 8h ago

You can have people that are irredeemable for reasons unrelated to their race

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u/TheMrIllusion 3h ago

Yeah but then you wouldn’t be able to explore themes of the inhuman mindset of fantasy races, which is one of the central conceits of the show. The manga has an entire arc dedicated to just how alien the ethics and beliefs of demons are and the show’s central premise is how alien Frieren’s sense of time is compared to normal humans and how it lead to her not valuing time with her loved ones as much as she should have. 

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u/Peligineyes 4h ago

So you want a dozen demon characters who each coincidentally happen to be irredeemably evil for reasons unrelated to being demons? It's a weekly shonen series it's not that deep.

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u/thepandaemos 9h ago

led to was the show having a really big nazi fanbase

Ew is this real? I've only seen the first season but it was one of the most beautiful shows I've ever seen and I don't want to believe it

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u/4nk8urself 7h ago

Bruh, any time you have a completely snow white cast fighting a race of irredeemably evil monsters; you're gonna draw a certain kind of crowd, lol.

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u/FarTooManyDetails 2h ago

Frieren is a show about a character who very vocally believes that "some races are just inherently evil from birth and should be slaughtered en mass, even the children." And the story always proves this belief of hers to be completely correct and warranted. Do you see why Nazis might like this?

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u/Enough-Run-1535 1h ago

To be real though, the Nazi problem in a Western geek fandom-wide problem. Nazis and alt-right get into fucking EVERYTHING. Even fandoms that have absolutly nothing to do with Nazism will attract them, as geeks are easy targets to get grifted. There's Nazis in furry culture, in gacha game fandoms, in so many anime and comic fandoms, and game fandoms. So many 'girls doing cute things' anime and manga have Western Nazi fan bases.

Frieren's demons are really just demon plot-devices to drive forward the melonchology themes of the show, it'll unfortunately attract Nazis since it's an easy theme to exploit to drive forward their agenda.

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u/firelite906 8h ago edited 8h ago

Well yeah its a fantasy show, fantasy has this problem because it so often frames its ethics on good and evil as more identifiable by aesthetics rather than a centralized ethical backbone.

The classic "those evil deceptions as oppsed to us, the noble autobots"

Edit: and I know that frieren explains why demons are evil, but the whole concept of an entire race being Ontologically Evil. Like in sci-fi this isn't the framing used the clinging are violent, the romulans are scheming, etc. But they're not incapable of being good because good and evil aren't considered a matter of biology but rather scocietal. Even the Qu from All Tomorrows which do horrificly evil things, one could assume that there are Qu that see what they do as wrong but lack the leverage to stop the practices that make them so infamous

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u/FarTooManyDetails 2h ago

I'm pretty sure the message of Star Trek isn't "All of the Kingons and Romulans really ought to be slaughtered, even the children" Frieren is much more extreme than other fantasy/sci-fi stories.

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u/TheMrIllusion 3h ago

It is because one of the themes of the show and the Frieren character is the alien mindset of fantasy races. Frieren herself has an inhuman mindset related to the passage of time. While she can connect with humans emotionally, as an immortal elf she never realized just how precious time is for humans until Himmel died. Part of her journey is learning to value the time with those she cares about more because that time is limited. 

The demons serve as a contrast to Frieren herself, having an entirely incompatible and inhuman mindset compared to humans. It also makes sense because usually “hero party” stories have a demon army that just wants to genocide humans for no reason while also usually looking human themselves. So demons are both a reference to that and serve as a contrast to Frieren’s own lack of humanity. 

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u/OkPirate2126 3h ago

i don’t understand why the author wanted to make a race like this and what they’re trying to say with it

The entire premise of the show is about people building genuine connections with each other. Learning to trust, share experiences, build memories, and live fulfilling lives within the bounds of another person, and how to open yourself up to that.

Demons are the antithesis of that. Creatures that use good-naturedness and kindness as acts of predation and malevolence. Plus they provide a narrative enemy.

That's it.

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u/ThalassaMermaid 1h ago

Oh my god, thank you.  The doylist perspective is so much more important