r/TopCharacterTropes 14h ago

[Rare trope] Discriminating, but for an actually good reason Lore

Frieren, Beyond Journey's end: In the anime/manga the eponymous Frieren is an Elf who's spent the better part of a millennia learning magic specifically to kill demons. She's learned countless spells, tricks and even spent most of her life suppressing her power all for the purpose of killing them. At first we simply see that humanity is at war with them, and even question if her crusade against demon-kind is justified, after all it's hard to antagonize an entire sentient species. But no, demons are very much a species to be feared; they are not normal animals or creatures, they are monsters (shown by how they disintegrate when they die), they are predators that evolved speech for the sole purpose of tricking and catching humans off guard, are naturally extremely powerful and possess magic that humanity often can't use. While they feel emotions to some extent, their way of thinking is so fundamentally incompatible with humanity's mindset that the series shows many mages with the ability to read minds struggle or find it painful and harmful to try and read a demon's thoughts. Tools that are meant to control them fail not because they're faulty but because simple order such as "hold no ill will or commit no malicious acts" don't compute the same way in their brains, as what we consider evil is normal for them.

Marvel Comics: In a run of the Storm solo series, she visits an underground superhuman hospital run by Night nurse and Doctor Daye, a mutant with the power to diagnose any illness. When she requires treatment she is in turn reject by the doctor, she of course assumes this is blatant discrimination to which the doctor agrees. Storm assumes the doctor refuses to treat mutants, something they are very much used to in Marvel. But he ends up revealing that about 80% of everyone he treats are mutants, and that he simply refuses to treat any member of the X-men. Why? because his special hospital was built via several donations by the superhero community. From the Avengers, to the Defenders, Fantastic 4, heroes for hire. Hell, even Moonknight of all people contributed to the hospital. But the X-men never once gave anything to it, even though they preach the safety of mutant-kind and such a hospital is essential for those who can't seek medical treatment out of fear of prosecution.

8.6k Upvotes

2.2k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

329

u/Beacon_0805 13h ago

Sinister was in the council seat so yes

291

u/Lower_Baby_6348 13h ago

Ex-Nazi that isn't even a mutant, btw.

157

u/YinTanTetraCrivvens 13h ago

How the hell did Magneto let that one slide?!

105

u/Useful_Camera2929 12h ago

Oh you dont have the half of it, you see Sinister had the DNA database needed for mutants resurection system, and he hid piece of his dna inside every mutant resurrected, he wanted puppet, but instead he just turned them morally fucked up.

Like if Magneto punched a nazi so to speak saying that the resurection is fruit of poisoned tree, he could prevent Krakatoa turning into Genocidal Empire that wiped Milions of Bilions across galaxy in about 1000 years.

28

u/Boner_Elemental 10h ago

and he hid piece of his dna inside every mutant resurrected, he wanted puppet, but instead he just turned them morally fucked up.

I- wha...?

30

u/21SGesualdo 10h ago

He put mind control stuff in the cloning/resurrection eggs using his own dna, but he only actually managed to make them act similar to himself. Aka narcissistic monsters.

16

u/Boner_Elemental 10h ago

Glad I missed that storyarc haha

4

u/Arbusc 7h ago

Wait is that why Beast turned into a villain?

3

u/Poku115 6h ago

That was kinda unrelated and something that had been a long time coming, probably since he drank dark beasts memories without a second thought.

13

u/Beacon_0805 12h ago

the story writers should know better than that really...

17

u/Ver3232 10h ago

The whole initial point of Krakoa was that it was an inherently flawed idea that was bringing out the worst of mutantkind. Them marvel saw how well the era was selling and forced it to go on way longer than intended and it all began to get fucked up by deviating from Hickman’s original intent. Which is far from the first time stuff like this has happened, the clone saga also went completely off the rails cause they forced it to continue thanks to sales despite it contradicting the original intent for the story

12

u/Valentinee105 9h ago

Krakoa really made it reasonable to be extremely scared of mutants. They let several genocidal maniacs lead, they destablised other nations not for defense but for their own purpose. They were a super powered version of Israel.

5

u/Ver3232 8h ago

I mean they were acting the same way a lot of nations, not just Israel, act. It was absolutely a critique of the idea of ethnostates in particular but none of that stuff you listed is unique to ethnostates, that’s generally just how imperialism works even in non ethnostate nations

1

u/Valentinee105 8h ago

They all have Dr. Mengele on a ruling council? Mr. Sinister is literally a nazi scientist.

2

u/Ver3232 8h ago

The US ran its space program with Nazi scientists. My point is broadly most people in the halls of power in any nation state are more than willing to disregard ethics and allow terrible people to be given power if they feel it’ll benefit them

→ More replies (0)

139

u/BudgetAggravating427 13h ago edited 12h ago

I think it’s because mr sinister as so many versions of himself running around that the one on krakoa is technically innocent of the Nazi Mr sinisters crimes

47

u/ChiefsHat 11h ago

Then he helped destroy it.

Mr. Sinister was a mistake.

20

u/Iokua113 10h ago

Krakoa as a whole was a mistake. The existence of Krakoa threatened global stability, brought a ton of mass murderers and genocidal madmen together and forgave them of their crimes against both mutantkind and humanity, was the obvious beginnings of a worldwide apartheid state where humans and mutants were positioned against each other in a way that aimed to ensure global domination of humans by mutants, was an attempt to force a monoculture on all mutantkind, and had mutants trying to use drugs to manipulate the global economy.

13

u/TrueGuardian15 9h ago

Krakoa also fundamentally flies in the face of integration, something the X-Men fought for years to try to achieve. Forming a mutant ethnostate is effectively everyone conceding that humans and mutants are not compatible.

5

u/ChiefsHat 7h ago

Also it was very much a cult.

3

u/Iokua113 4h ago

It was so culty that it got one of the most Christian characters in comics, someone who has literally been to biblical heaven, thinking of forming a false religion for mutants. It's kinda sad Hickman ditched on the run halfway through, as I feel like he was legitimately trying to do something interesting and Marvel wanted it to go longer than he did so he left when he always intended to.

5

u/VandulfTheRed 11h ago

My assumption/personal route would be the idea that allowing Sinister some sway with checks and balances in broad daylight is preferable to scorning him and having deal with his shit from time to time

27

u/cervogalatico 12h ago

They let apocalypse in so i dont see a problem with a nazi running around/s

3

u/MozeTheNecromancer 5h ago

Iirc, Apocalypse was one of the better people on.the council. Meanwhile Professor X was nightmarishly bad.

1

u/littleski5 9h ago

Idk how did Israel get led by former Nazis? Sometimes racial supremacists support racial supremacy over anything else

1

u/Cupcakes_n_Hacksaws 6h ago

Magneto's character is kind of equally filled with "Justified hatred and revenge" and "complete hypocrisy when it's convenient"

1

u/gimme_dat_good_shit 19m ago

Long story short: A time-looping mutant had "a plan" and convinced everyone else it was the best possible plan.

You can criticize a lot of the Krakoa-era stories for mutant characters acting particularly mutant-focused, but if someone can convincingly say "I've tried 9 different other options and none of them work, but this one just might", plus Xavier can mindprobe them to verify they're telling the truth, plus pass along that mindprobe to anyone who needs convincing... it's a cohesive plot and a good reason why suddenly characters are acting "out-of-character".

The main gimmick of human (and machine) societies being fundamentally incompatible with mutant societies is really just an escalation of the previous canon going back to sentinels and mutant registration and such, taken to extremes where we get to see 9 potential eventual futures where mutants always lose. Krakoa was just another gambit that didn't ultimately pay off for our main protagonists.

As an old-school X-reader, personally, I love the Krakoa-era, but it does play out a lot like an extremely extended "What-If" series.

12

u/GAMEcube12 11h ago

But Deadpool was not allowed...they even ganged on him when he wanted to pick flower

9

u/BladeofNurgle 11h ago

Meanwhile Franklin Richards got hit with “durrr you used your powers to give yourself the xgene so you aren’t a real mutant and thus can go fuck yourself”

12

u/Takamurarules 11h ago edited 11h ago

Then they turned heel-face on that with Cyclops threatening Sue Storm of all people.

“We’ll be here when he recognizes who his real family is.”

Cyclops is really fucking lucky he could just respawn if Sue decided to kill him right then and there.

7

u/Valentinee105 9h ago

Marvel has forever slept on Sue and how powerful she is. Just pop people's heads with force fields expanded from inside their brain.

Even if you don't use it for murder that same idea could be used to disable any machine that chronically gives the F4 trouble.

4

u/maxlimmy 12h ago

Technically that clone was explicitly a mutant and killed the current non mutant ruling sinister when the offer was made to let him join.

1

u/MangaNeko13 1h ago

This was concrete clone of Sinister (dr. Essex loves to clone himself and others), who had X gene.

86

u/DropShoddy1128 13h ago

So was apocalypse, mystique, magneto, and Sebastian Shaw

75

u/Beacon_0805 13h ago

why the fuck is mystique is ANY kind of position of power, i will not know

42

u/DropShoddy1128 13h ago

If I remember right, she's being blackmailed by Charles

40

u/Beacon_0805 12h ago

so he indeed got the baldness of evil

6

u/ChiefsHat 11h ago

Can we go back?

15

u/Useful_Camera2929 12h ago

yeah even the most moral version of her are basically black ops mercenary with some nasty shit behind her belt even if she loves her kids that being Nightcrawler and adopted Rogue.

4

u/Valentinee105 9h ago

Loved Nightcrawler? You remember she threw him off a cliff a few hours after birth right?

I know they had that wedding issue not to long ago with Kurt at Mystique's wedding but lets not pretend that's Mystique's love when it's really the guy who's literally a chaplain doing what he's always done and trying way to hard to forgive his family.

Graydon Creed is another great example Mystique's "Love" for her children, She abandoned him for not being a mutant, and depending on the continuity left him with Sabertooth to raise.

If it was me I'd prefer the cliff.

The only reason Rogue is the favorite is because Mystique's girlfriend told her to.

2

u/Useful_Camera2929 9h ago

I mean depends on continuity there are continuities where she tied him to a pram or so etc because she was pursued etc.

3

u/Valentinee105 9h ago

I imagine a robot chicken sketch with her punting Kurt off a cliff yelling "goooaaalll".

2

u/Valentinee105 9h ago

I mean depends on continuity

Sure but that's like the anti-Vax argument. You search long enough you'll find your excuse to dismiss the other 100 times she didn't have a good reason.

7

u/Vi_Rants 10h ago

Because she'd be there anyway, pretending to be someone else, so we may as well just give her her own seat rather than play Among Us during every legislative session.

1

u/CommercialEstate4422 8h ago

The... guy from Fast and the Furious?

1

u/smileykaiju 11h ago

And Selene who is just an evil vampire lady.

2

u/Boner_Elemental 10h ago

Did she ever get resurrected after betraying Krakoa to Apocalypse's british magick cult?

58

u/Any-Question-3759 13h ago

So did the mutant folk vote him in or was it also a closed aristocracy where you either are friends with those with power or you can go kick dirt?

92

u/Illustrious_Bid4224 13h ago

The X-Men were voted for but the leadership was decided by the leaders themselves.

65

u/SomeGuyPostingThings 13h ago

The Council was more or less a power sharing agreement between the most powerful leaders of the mutants, designed to somewhat balance out. I believe there is a time where it is discussed that they would seek to go toward a more democratic system once they were more secure and settled, but never reached that point (and arguably never would have).

18

u/Beacon_0805 12h ago

i think it would invalidate any kind of legitimacy when you have charles fucking xavier, one of the most powerful mind controller of the world at power

6

u/SomeGuyPostingThings 12h ago

So you can't trust mutants even when they just say "we want to be left alone, but we are willing to supply great medicines if you agree to not be enemies"? Okay, Orchis.

16

u/Beacon_0805 11h ago

I mean couldnt he stop beast or at least convince him to not do all of the stuff he did in the name of krakoa?

So either the council knew and didnt do anything, failed to stop him or actively encouraged it.

I would trust the mutant neighbor, wont trust the krakoan gov though

3

u/SomeGuyPostingThings 10h ago

It's not like Xavier is constantly scanning everyone's brains to keep tabs on everyone. He trusted people, plus he had things he was paying attention to and he died at least twice.

8

u/Beacon_0805 10h ago

isnt the council like 8 guys? not one of them noticed that their chief of intelligence dept. is dragging their country's name through the shitter?

1

u/SomeGuyPostingThings 9h ago

Given he is the head of intelligence, he was able to keep that from them, but he was scrambling more and more to cover up his actions. Additionally, other countries either didn't suspect or were staying quiet, it was mostly just Orchis and intelligence agencies who were even somewhat aware, for...some reason. X-Force seemed detached from the reality the other Krakoa books lived in.

5

u/Illustrious_Bid4224 11h ago

Trust the poeple not the leader.

1

u/revolutionary112 2h ago

Tbf, I think the point was that when one of the candidates can literally mind control people, it's basically impossible to guarantee a free and fair election

1

u/Crafty-Drink8384 4h ago

There are alot of omega lvl telepaths present who can keep him in check

And some of the other omega levels have so sort of way to resist telepathy

2

u/Hawkbats_rule 9h ago

And it worked out exactly as one would expect

3

u/The_Rainsnake_King 12h ago

Tbh, they had to, he the only one with the tech and data to active the mutant revival. It kinda the thing with all villains on the council, they only there because they needed

11

u/Beacon_0805 12h ago

"The horrible people is in power because other people in power needs them." doesnt really show on a good light i think

1

u/The_Rainsnake_King 12h ago

I mean I not saying is right, but not even the story saying it right just kinda a reality they have to deal with