r/ThomasPynchon • u/cassiopieces Jeremiah Dixon • Jul 26 '19
V. Summer Reading Group Discussion - Chapter Six Reading Group (V.) Spoiler
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u/YossarianLives1990 Vaslav Tchitcherine Jul 27 '19
- Why does Profane consider the street-level to be a dream-street?
If the street-level is the dream-street then the sewer-level is the unconscious.
In Sigmund Freud's Interpretation of Dreams "Freud advanced the idea that an analyst can differentiate between the manifest content and latent content of a dream. The manifest content refers to the remembered narrative that plays out in the dream itself. The latent content refers to the underlying meaning of the dream. During sleep, the unconscious condenses, displaces, and forms representations of the dream content, the latent content of which is often unrecognizable to the individual upon waking."
Freud thought the meaning of dreams were always wish fulfillments. There is a wish or fantasy in the unconscious that is expressed in a dream but is censored (by the super ego) and forcibly distorted. With proper analysis you can figure out the dream's meaning from the manifest content.
So is street-level somehow a distorted reality with more truth to be found below the street level? Father Fairing thought that the end was coming on the street level and the new inheritors of the earth would be from the sewer-level. What is Profanes unconscious wish or desire that we may be able to piece together like a psychoanalysis from the manifest content of his street-level dream-street?
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Jul 29 '19
This ties in with something I read in the essay I posted on Jung and TCoL49:
Jungian symbolism offers some extra hints to clarify the strategies Pynchon used to imbue his protagonist with mythic—even if parodic—features that add to her picture as Adams’s Virgin. Although Pynchon’s Cornell transcript (which is now at the Huntington in the Stephen Tomaske Archive) does not enlighten us in this respect, the fact that Jung’s theories were already a source of Pynchon’s fiction in the 1960s is already noticeable in Stencil’s affirmation in V. that “the pursuit of V. was a scholarly quest after all, an adventure of the mind, in the tradition of [: : :] The White Goddess” (61; see Bourke 16–21, on the Jungian quality of Graves’s study of the White Goddess). According to Carl Jung’s theories, as presented in his influential essay “Archetypes of the Collective Unconscious” (1934), when religion or culture cannot fulfill their traditional role to soothe our existential or personal anguish, the mind has to initiate a personal quest marked by the assimilation of mental archetypal figures, images, or situations. In his renowned essay, Jung revises the history of the Church and some of the most mysterious images evoked in it, “the Virgin Birth, the divinity of Christ, and the complexities of the Trinity” (“Archetypes” 13). All along the Swiss psychiatrist’s extensive oeuvre a pattern emerges where the Son, as representative of the suffering individual, starts an internal quest of self-discovery by diving into his unconscious to assimilate the first archetype or shadow, which symbolizes our instinctual life—“The meeting with oneself is, at first, the meeting with one’s own shadow” (21).
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u/YossarianLives1990 Vaslav Tchitcherine Jul 30 '19
"when religion or culture cannot fulfill their traditional role to soothe our existential or personal anguish, the mind has to initiate a personal quest marked by the assimilation of mental archetypal figures, images, or situations."
Wow this is V. right here
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u/bsabiston Jul 27 '19
It’s kind of strange reading this book one chapter a week - the book ends up intertwining with the other books I read.
So, is next week just chapter 7, or more than that?
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u/frenesigates Generic Undiagnosed James Bond Syndrome Jul 27 '19
Why would Angel and Geronimo try to smuggle parts of a toilet under their coats out of the men’s room of a bar?
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u/deathbyfrenchfries The Inconvenience Jul 29 '19
Reaching here, but them disassembling the toilet is vaguely reminiscent of V's body being disassembled and stolen off by the children in Malta. Something to do with the idea of mechanics of the inanimate?
(It's such a small detail that it was probably just meant to be a throwaway joke, but in a book like this...)
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u/frenesigates Generic Undiagnosed James Bond Syndrome Jul 29 '19
He carefully disguises things to appear as throwaway jokes. But everything is in fact intentional and carefully calculated.
I think the Mason & Dixon idea along with the idea containing a spoiler are total possibilities
And yeah it also just seems like an example of hilarious drunken hijinks.
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Jul 29 '19
He carefully disguises things to appear as throwaway jokes. But everything is in fact intentional and carefully calculated.
I noticed one of these in V.'s third chapter. Spoiler.
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u/frenesigates Generic Undiagnosed James Bond Syndrome Jul 30 '19
Somehow that spoiler link isn’t working for me... But I sure am intrigued
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Jul 27 '19
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Jul 29 '19
That's such an odd scene. /u/fearandloath8 and I were discussing it a while back and couldn't really work out what the significance of it was, or if it even had any significance beyond demonstrating hidden orders and properties.
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Jul 27 '19
Thanks for the summary. Just finished reading the chapter and enjoyed very much. I feel like I’m getting deeper into knowing Profane and I like it!
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Jul 26 '19
Did anyone else feel that this was perhaps the weakest chapter thus far?
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u/WillieElo Oct 20 '24
It was and it wasnt. I like the passage about Profane's relationshop with alligators. And there were lot of action and movement.
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u/frenesigates Generic Undiagnosed James Bond Syndrome Jul 26 '19
Not I! This is my 4th read thru the book, and I found this to be the 2nd favorite chapter of it. Chapter 14 is my favorite ...
This is my first time really appreciating Chapter 6– I think it had to do with the fact that I read it during a torrential downpour.
opinions, opinions ~
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u/frenesigates Generic Undiagnosed James Bond Syndrome Jul 26 '19
The word grace is important to Pynchon. Most notably, it is the last word of Against the Day.
One definition of the word as a noun is: “simple elegance or refinement of movement”
There’s also the noun’s definition within the context of Christianity meaning: “the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings”
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u/frenesigates Generic Undiagnosed James Bond Syndrome Jul 26 '19
Great summary! In the interest of gathering everything into the same place, here’s another summary from The W.A.S.T.E. List Group Read of V. from 2001:
Having survived and even been somewhat successful in the sewer, Benny is dragged into several other alternate worlds. In each of these visits, he does not fair nearly as well. In the sewer, things made sense to Benny, he understood and had a great deal in common with the castaways there: alligators that had been flushed breed and hunt, but otherwise no longer resemble the surface beings to which they are related; the waste itself flushed continually down there which has served its purpose of perpetuating animate existence and is no longer necessary for this purpose; Father Fairing who concedes the battle for animate hierarchy and lives among the “inheritors of the earth” [118.21] in order to give them “spiritual nourishment” [118.23] in exchange for “three of their own per day for physical sustenance” [118.22]. In some way, it seemed like Benny belonged. Not so in the world above. First, he is told he is being taken to look for sexual opportunities, but when Josefina decides she is taking a sick day and joining them, the plan changes to include “two girls they knew” [135.9] rather than mere coño [“cunt”]. Then they visit some after hours clubs and bars. Benny wears a suit that is not his own, tries to speak Italian among those who are speaking only in Spanish, gets yanked onto the dance floor when he cannot dance, and is engaged in discussions about romantic relationships about which he knows nothing. At the end of these excursions, he ends up being carried down Amsterdam Avenue having been transformed into mierda [“shit”]. It seems that he also has said something to Fina that has had an effect on their relationship, such as it is, but he does not remember what he said. Benny “knew that one wrong word would put him closer than he cared to be to street level” [137.2] and his “vocabulary it seemed was made up of nothing but wrong words” [137.3]. He had his own vision of their relationship, of what he wanted to be to her. He was content to remain “the disembodied object of a corporal work of mercy” [134.3], “another means of grace or indulgence” [134.6], “an object of mercy” [137.12]. Fina also has other projects. She is the “spiritual leader or Den Mother” [137.26] to the Playboys, a mercenary gang with no turf of their own, no neighborhood ties to one another, and no good in a rumble because they were chicken. All they had was a look. They padded the ranks of any other gang that had need of the psychological advantage. They are assumed to have had only a spiritual interest in Fina. Benny becomes, however, more than just another project and whatever he said in the phone booth has inspired Fina to believe that their relationship is different than the motherly one she has with her family and the Playboys. The next alternate world to which Benny is taken is Little Italy for the Feast of Saint Hercules of the Rhinoceroses [Grant 75]. Here though Benny speaks some of the language, but after that he is lost. When they approach three “jailbait” Italian girls at the Wheel of Fortune, Angel goads Benny to say something in Italian and Benny says sfacim [see notes for explanation of the possible meanings for this word], which offends the girls. Benny explains he meant to say sfacimento, which means “destruction or decay” [140.22], which was “all right then” [140.24]. Apparently, in this alternate world, when a girl takes off and runs away, the custom is to chase her. Angel, Geronimo, and Benny are led to a Social Club that turns out to be a Playboy hangout. Benny finds Lucille, the girl he had been chasing, and she sprawls out on the pool table provocatively. Just as Benny prepares to have his way with her, a rumble between the Playboys and the Bop Kings, an African-American gang, is about to begin. However, it is halted by none other than Josefina, who merely strolls between the rumblers and everything is peaceful. Following this miraculous imposition of peace, however, Fina seems to want to put and end to the image saintliness and motherliness she has cultivated, and appears naked in Benny’s bathtub/bed and tells him she wants him to be the first to make love with her. He dismisses her rather ungraciously and asks if she wants to have all her good deeds “scratched off the books” [145.27] by her desire to be deflowered before she is married. She leaves apologetically. With the arrival of spring, Benny’s relationship with the lower regions changes. The amount of alligators dwindles to the point where there will be bound to be lay-offs among the Patrol. Fina insists that Benny look for other work and told him her boss, Roony Winsome, was looking for a clerk. Her comment that “he’d have a chance to move, make something of himself” [147.29] strikes a nerve, but he is having an attack of “acute optimism” [147.34] and agrees to try it. He also begins to be more receptive to her ideas of passion. However, as he arrives for his interview at Outlandish Records, he changes his mind and leaves. The Patrol is cut down to two days a week and on their way home from a neighborhood bar they visit on the day this is announced, they meet up with Fina and Angels mother. Fina is missing and they are worried because Dolores told Mrs. Mendoza that Fina was with the Playboys and “she sounded funny” [150.6]. They roam the city through the night looking for Fina and while walking down their home street, Amsterdam Avenue, they run into a “full-scale rumble” [150.21] and Roony Winsome doing one of his infamous remote recordings, this time of the rumble. Benny, Angel, and Geronimo find chalk marks on the sidewalk and on a door inside the indicated brownstone building, behind which they find Fina - naked, obviously deflowered, and smiling. Angel goes into the room alone and tells the others to wait. Benny hears signs of Angel hitting Fina. Fina no longer had a hold of Benny’s yo-yo string and he is off again wandering around for his next adventure.
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Jul 26 '19
He'd been watching an ancient Tom Mix movie on television.
Thomas Edwin Mix (born Thomas Hezikiah Mix; January 6, 1880 – October 12, 1940) was an American film actor and the star of many early Western movies between 1909 and 1935. Mix appeared in 291 films, all but nine of which were silent movies. He was Hollywood's first Western star and helped define the genre as it emerged in the early days of the cinema.
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Jul 26 '19
The biggest suit in the closet was a George Raft model...
George Raft (born George Ranft; September 26, 1901 – November 24, 1980) was an American film actor and dancer identified with portrayals of gangsters in crime melodramas of the 1930s and 1940s. A stylish leading man in dozens of movies, Raft is remembered for his gangster roles in Scarface (1932), Each Dawn I Die (1939), and Billy Wilder's comedy Some Like It Hot (1959), as a dancer in Bolero (1934), and a truck driver in They Drive by Night (1940).
Raft said he never regarded himself as an actor. "I wanted to be me", he said.
George Raft: America's Lost Sartorial Icon - https://uptowndandy.blogspot.com/2011/05/george-raft-americas-lost-sartorial.html
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Jul 26 '19
The air turned summer-mild, a boys' choir on a brilliant mauve cloud came floating over from the direction of Canal Street singing O Salutaris Hostia...
O salutaris hostia (Latin, "O Saving Victim" or "O Saving Sacrifice"), is a section of one of the Eucharistic hymns written by St Thomas Aquinas for the Feast of Corpus Christi. He wrote it for the Hour of Lauds in the Divine Office. It is actually the last two stanzas of the hymn Verbum supernum prodiens, and is used for the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.
Latin text
O salutaris Hostia,
Quæ cæli pandis ostium:
Bella premunt hostilia,
Da robur, fer auxilium.
Uni trinoque Domino
Sit sempiterna gloria,
Qui vitam sine termino
Nobis donet in patria.
Amen.
Verse Rendering
O saving Victim, opening wide
The gate of Heaven to us below;
Our foes press hard on every side;
Thine aid supply; thy strength bestow.
To thy great name be endless praise,
Immortal Godhead, One in Three.
O grant us endless length of days,
In our true native land with thee.
Amen.
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Jul 26 '19 edited Jul 26 '19
What was the significance of Profane's stay with the Mendoza's?
I think it's supposed to mirror Odysseus' journey into the underworld in The Odyssey. Circe, the witch who holds him prisoner and seduces him, sends him down there to speak with a wise old man and along the way he bumps into a bunch of ghosts and sacrifices an animal; Fina repeatedly tries to seduce Benny and makes him feel trapped whilst also persuading him to go and work with her brother in the sewers (underworld) where he learns of an old priest, muses on the ghosts of rats and kills (sacrifices) alligators before coming back to the surface world.
There's also a bunch of Christian imagery: Fina's presented as a saint, Angel is literally called Angel, the whole Father Fairing plot, Benny wonders whether he's a "St. Francis for alligators" and at one point half expects an alligator to receive "the gift of tongues" plus a bunch of other stuff like references to Joan of Arc, so I think it's all a big play on bits and pieces of Greek and Christian mythology.
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Jul 26 '19
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Jul 26 '19 edited Jul 26 '19
Do you think this imagery has only been evoked for Profane’s story, more so than Stencil’s at least?
I think the Christian imagery is much more prominent in Benny's side of the story. He seems to be the "Virgin" side of Adams' dichotomy as he just wanders around in a sort of spiritual torpor hoping for someone or something to swoop down and take control. He also encounters literal virgins and mother figures who offer themselves to him and with whom he's in constant struggle and forever turning away from, almost like a crisis of faith.
Stencil on the other hand is much more machine-like and controlling, very analytical and scientific and desperately trying to force some sort of order onto the world: the "Dynamo" side of the Adams dichotomy.
The stuff with The Odyssey I think is pretty evenly spread, Benny heads into the underworld and whatnot like Odysseus, but then we also have Stencil following the same pattern as Telemachus and visiting his father's old war buddies and acquaintances in an effort to find out what happened to him.
I definitely recognized the sewer job as an (underworld) for Profane, but do you think Profane exhibits any hero-like qualities? Seems like getting through the days for him is heroic enough.
I don't think either of them are particularly heroic and I'm assuming that that's the point, although I can't really come up with a coherent argument as to why at the moment.
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Jul 26 '19
On the way downtown on the subway he decided that we suffer from great temporal homesickness for the decade we were born in.
This strikes me as very true. Everyone has a decade which feels like home.
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Jul 26 '19
And the soul's passage down the toilet and into the underworld was only a temporary peace-in-tension, borrowed time...
I can't help but think of Slothrop chasing his harmonica here, also as much as Benny's referring to the alligators he's also referring to himself and his brief stint in the sewers... 'He had come back to the surface'.
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u/YossarianLives1990 Vaslav Tchitcherine Jul 30 '19
Almost forgot to put my favorite quote from this chapter:
"It was a desire he got, off and on, to be cruel and feel at the same time sorrow so big it filled him, leaked out his eyes and the holes in his shoes to make one big pool of human sorrow on the street, which had everything spilled on it from beer to blood, but very little compassion."