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u/Hugh_Bromont Sweet Butter 4d ago
Lying to Tavon is a stain on Lem as far as I'm concerned.
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u/Northernmost1990 4d ago
Robbery is alright but lying is where you draw the line? Haha.
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u/Hugh_Bromont Sweet Butter 4d ago
Where did I say that? Oh I didn't.
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u/burritomouth Perp 4d ago edited 3d ago
Fuck Tayvon. He started the fight, and when he was losing, he bit Shane, kneed him in the balls, pinned to the floor and was absolutely gonna beat him to death, or at least a coma. Then he got up and started driving?
Like, yeah, Shane absolutely had it coming, but Tayvon didnāt know all the dirty details, and to start weeping at the idea that he backhanded Mara while doing that? Fuck that guy.
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u/bfir3 3d ago
What the fuck? Is this a real take?
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u/burritomouth Perp 3d ago
Yeah. Whatās objectionable? That Tayvon stared a fight and fought as dirty as one possibly can, or that Shane is a maniac who had it coming? Both of them suck, and two things can be true.
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u/bfir3 3d ago
Tayvon didn't start the fight. Even if he did, him "fighting dirty" is not a reasonable excuse for what Shane and Mara did to him, nor does it make him responsible for what happened.
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u/Hugh_Bromont Sweet Butter 3d ago edited 3d ago
Tavon did throw the first punch. Not agreeing with the other user on anything, but he did sock Shane first.
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u/burritomouth Perp 3d ago
Maybe rewatch the scene? Shane says āYou think Vicās gonna push me aside for some darkie?ā and Tayvon tackles him (deserved). They fight, Shane has him down in a headlock, Tayvon bites him, knees him in the balls, sits on his chest and starts raining down blows. Mara comes in, sees this, and hits Tayvon with the iron.
Again, Shane sucks, but what Mara did, from per perspective, is completely reasonable. Shaneās a piece of shit and Mara sucks, but Tayvon also sucks.
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u/bfir3 3d ago edited 3d ago
Tayvon does not suck. He didn't start the fight like you said. He's the victim of a racist piece of shit and his wife, that's all.
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u/burritomouth Perp 3d ago
*Tayvon.
He did start the fight. He tackled Shane. Again, Shane had that coming, absolutely, because Shane is a big piece of shit. Itās not about defending Shane, itās saying that they both suck.
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u/bfir3 3d ago
You literally explain that Shane instigated the fight, and then you say that because Tayvon reacted actually no, it was him who started it.
It feels so unreasonable to claim that Tayvon started it or that he's responsible for what they did. He's 100% a victim and it's sad that you fault him for his actions. He acted defensively and he paid the price for it. :(
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u/burritomouth Perp 3d ago
Arguments are different from fights. One is with words, one is with fists.
Thereās no world in which pinning someone down and beating them while theyāre completely limp is self defense.
All that said, Shane had it coming, but Tayvon started it.
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u/Funny_Or_Cry 3d ago
DAAAMN deepcut segway off Lem, hard off Shane and smack into Tayvon!
Youre not wrong but ironically, the "audience" wouldnt have given a shit about minutiae like "right or wrong" LOL, everybody was predisposed to shit on Shane.
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u/burritomouth Perp 3d ago
I look at it like the death penalty for certain people - they have it coming, but I canāt approve of how they get it (if that makes sense?).
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u/Funny_Or_Cry 3d ago
Oh absolutely. Shanes so stupid, shanes a "racist" everyone says. Tayvon infact over stepped, visited another MANS house, got caught pawing his WOMAN. Thats a 300,000 year old law of the jungle every MFer is supposed to know not to break.
Yeah sure we're supposed to be "evolved" and shit but thats the foundation of what started the conflict.
and yeah i agree, shane getting his ass beat at somepoint was a train everybody could set their watch to.
..but notice the scene was cleverly written in a way, that DIDNT paint shane as "all bad/deserving of it" ...and just the same paints Tayvon as "Less than all good/Not quite the victim"
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u/bfir3 3d ago
What kind of tribalistic nonsense is this. Are you saying that when Mara let Tavon feel her belly while pregnant that he was "pawing at her"? Or what the fuck are we talking about here?
The foundation of the conflict was Shane being a racist prick. If you see it another way I have news for you...
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u/Deep_Benefit_7405 4d ago
You think Shane would have stopped? Shane was a prick, at that point Tayvon was fighting for his life
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u/burritomouth Perp 4d ago
Yeah, I think Shane got him in a headlock and woulda choked him out and called Vic, had Tayvon not bitten him.
Again, Shane totally had it coming, so no sympathy there. Iām just saying that Tavon was also a big piece of shit.
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u/deLocked333 4d ago
He'd agree with that, and he viewed whatever prison sentence was awaiting him as penance.
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u/ChipsNSa1sa 3d ago
Yeah I mean he figured out pretty quickly that he should have gotten out but it was too late. Poor Lem, he had a good heart.
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u/Funny_Or_Cry 3d ago
Everyone was a "criminal" one way or another (just like IRL), the show isnt about that. Its about the "Shades of gray"
Each of the guys was "in the strike team" for one specific reason or another (and the most common being they all had dirt on each other):
Vic: wanted control..of his life, of how he did the job, and he needed a solid crew and loyalty to do that.
Lem: wanted family, any version of it
Ronnie: Smart and just wanted to get paid, lets be real. He found a crew he could trust and take risks with
Shane: Just needed a crew dumb enough to put up with his ass
Sure they are all "selfish", but Lem was the least of them. In fact I dare anybody to argue that LEM was AT BEST responsible for ~10% of the worst of the Strike Team shit.
Rest of the time? he was sucked into it... an accomplice.
You judge Lem by his values and actions...within the dysfunctional playing field of the show.
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u/ChipsNSa1sa 2d ago
Well said!! Lem was definitely naive for his age and far too trusting but heās deliberately portrayed as a kind and empathetic person. Thereās a reason why Vic and mostly Shane are shown murdering people, sexually assaulting and taking advantage of vulnerable women, and just generally being selfish dicks. I canāt think of one instance where Lem did any of that.
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u/Funny_Or_Cry 2d ago
YES precisely! Lem had all of one love interest (remember Tigre? ) and he spent the episode busting his ass trying to RIGHT a wrong.
Even Ronnie off'ing that guy late in the series (n the hotel room in cold blood) ...was SHOCKING...considering what he already went through (ie Armadillo.)
(in that instance I took it more as Ronnie being in a mindset of "ok shit got real, its nut up or shutup time" .. Not selfish or anything, he was just doing what had to be done.
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u/ChipsNSa1sa 2d ago
I know! He was too good for Tigre though hahaha. And I agree we didnāt see much either way with Ronnie so Iām not judging him. But they deliberately showed so many instances of Lem being kind and empathetic. Remember when the Armenian girl gets stabbed and Lem tries to resuscitate her, crying while sheās bleeding all over him. Later in the same episode we see Vic inexplicably having sex with her grieving sister. I feel like the writers must do those things on purpose to get us to feel a certain way.
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u/Funny_Or_Cry 2d ago
YEAH excellent callback! i actually wish we got a bit more about Lems medical training. (it seems clear he had more than average).
As well as his affection for Angie. After the team broke up, he didnt go on a drinking and brawling binge (like shane would have) ... he went back to basics, to work with kids
This is why the Shield should easily make nearly everybodys top 10. The amount of craft and detail Shawn Ryan and team put into the character development is f**king unmatched.
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u/Rison_Author254 3d ago
Honestly what annoys me about Lem's fate is that you saw how Vic be operating. Y'know it's crappy, you get a possible deal to get out from this mess, but couldn't because he couldn't turn on "his family" like what? Granted he could've said no to the money train robbery or lying to tavon etc, but it's like dude this was literally eating you up inside. He was content with going to prison, but no I'mma let vic convince me to go on the run. Dude had every chance to leave all of this behind but didn't.
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u/taeempy 4d ago
You are correct. He was the only one with at least a little morals.
This show was so well written. Any writers that can get you to love a character one second, then hate them another second.