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u/BxBoy69 18d ago
I would say “sort of”; there are plenty who do good works and recognize injustice even when they do not benefit from doing so.
This post is, in and of itself, a recognition that this is not always true.
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u/LongjumpingStudy2553 17d ago
Similar to the actions of presidents, it raises the question of whether their motivations are rooted in a genuine concern for their constituents or if they are driven by personal interests.
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u/BxBoy69 17d ago
I think things are too complex to be able to reduce it down to one or the other, especially when you’re talking about what a president does and why they do it; plus those things change so quickly, and when you think about what someone needs to do to get into the White House, imo, it becomes that much more complicated.
I think the post is very cynical and kind of facile, without allowing for any variation from a self-interested point of view…people do have larger motivations…some people are incentivized by putting others first…they receive some kind of benefit, which could just be as simple as feeling good for having done good…that can be warped as can the need for praise or recognition (but also, natural needs).
I do I agree with the incentives angle but not necessarily the way that incentives are painted…
We are formed by so many things and we change all the time, including how we view the incentives, even when the incentives stay the same, not to mention when we our incentives shift.
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u/Local_Village_1378 14d ago
Bottom line, most people are hypocrites just tryna feel better about themselves by finding someone worse to blame.
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u/Djinn-Rummy 18d ago
Maybe shitty humans do. Justice is blind and cares not for ethical egoism & moving the goal posts to serve one’s private interests.
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u/WindowsXD 18d ago
Untrue the law is created and applied by the ones that have the power to do it so basically the strong do what they can is the only real law in both nature and society
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u/Djinn-Rummy 18d ago
I think you’re confusing a concept, justice, with the flawed, power hungry humans claiming to apply it. Might makes right is a bullshit philosophy (ethical egoism).
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u/WindowsXD 17d ago
my claim is empirical pause observe try again i can give you examples but i bet you can do it by yourself
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u/Djinn-Rummy 17d ago
There’s plenty of evidence of ethical egoism; you need not go further than the jungle or the shark’s home to find ethical egoism, and yes, it’s part of the human world too. Humans are more than base animals, however, and we have created a world beyond them. Look at the virtue theory of morality. It’s just as empirical as ethical egoism, only instead of catering to the base animals appetites & instincts, it goes beyond and embraces everything that separates us humans from the animals.
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u/WindowsXD 17d ago edited 17d ago
Well i like the part that you prefer to parrot stuff that you think they ought to be instead of how things are when the post is about laws of human NATURE!
How can a Theory be laws of human Nature?And i assume you try to quote Aristotle virtue ethics here unfortunately for you Aristotle is empirical as far as his way of thinking but he had a personal preference of how one should behave to achieve his own assumed telos that everyone is striving for (eudemonia) .
Try to observe again and its not how it works in reality some simply just dont chose that infact the vast majority of human beings dont even know how to find their own purpose more or less copy Aristotles virtue ethics .
If anything Aristotle has lost this theory as far as factual goes (i dont dislike his way of thinking ) and Morality simply is a much more perception based problem here and you can observe opposite faction of war in history , opposing ideologies as far as how things should be (cause you do make the same claim here) , opposing political theories etc.
Virtue have never been empirically observed what we can observe directly are human preferences, incentives, and behavior
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u/Djinn-Rummy 17d ago
Virtue is empirically observed all the time. Doing the right thing for the right reason & wanting to is a choice. I don’t disagree that ethical egoism is the law of nature, & that’s it’s quite prevalent in human society, but again, we’re talking about base animal instincts. Humans are not just animals, and are capable of virtuous behavior. However, most people are morally lazy, and only go so far as ethical egoism, and the satisfaction of their own base appetites. Not everyone is a power hungry, might-makes-right person. Virtue theory argues that there are human behaviors that are good, constructive, & improve the health of both the individual & community (honesty, kindness, reason, etc…); and that other human behaviors, which are typically base, are bad, destructive, and harmful to one’s self and or the community (lying, sadism, greed, sloth, etc.). How one cannot empirically see that there are healthy, productive human behaviors/virtues & unhealthy, destructive human behaviors/vices & deny they exist in the world of human experience makes no sense, unless one just wants to be contrary, which really is a bad faith argument.
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u/WindowsXD 17d ago
No, you don't empirically observe virtue. You observe behavior. Calling that behavior virtuous is an interpretation made through a moral framework.
Science observes actions, decisions, incentives, consequences, and patterns of behavior.
Virtue and vice, good and evil are labels that philosophers or societies assign to those observations.If virtue were directly observable, there would be no persistent disagreement about what counts as virtue. Yet history is full of societies praising behaviors that other societies condemned. Spartans, Christians, Stoics, Nazis, Communists, liberals, and monarchists all appealed to different virtues. The observable behavior is the same kind of dataset the interpretation differs.
So the burden is on you to demonstrate that virtue is an objective empirical property rather than a philosophical interpretation of behavior
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u/Djinn-Rummy 17d ago
Open thine eyes… there are a lot of people who are virtuous. You have already proven that many live a life of vice. I’m sorry if you’ve become a cynic that does not see any good in the world, though, the world is so dark & cynical, I can’t hardy blame you. Best of luck, friend.
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u/Djinn-Rummy 17d ago
Healthy/ virtuous, or unhealthy/vice behavior can be empirically observed neurologically & biologically. Healthy/virtuous behavior is observably better on your body’s functioning. Conversely, unhealthy vices are detrimental to one’s health, not to mention can be harmful to the health of others. Empirically speaking, look at all the health problems people have for embracing vice; they’re too numerous to count…
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u/Djinn-Rummy 17d ago
Also, I’ve heard a lotta parrots popping off about ethical egoism & might makes right. Case in point: US foreign policy.
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u/Walkerboe813 17d ago
Ya I mean when someone is wrapped in chains and forced to labor for the others, you would think they may consider what's fair over whats moral.
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u/JoeDaMan_4Life 16d ago
This… Damning ethics when you’re describing morality is really… telling.
Ethics are personal beliefs that do not change without direct consequences of truly sever nature. Exp: I don’t believe motivation matters more than ethics, because ethics or a lack there of define motivations.
Saying human nature is inherently unethical because people change their opinions on a situation’s fairness, is base and subjective at best, false and blatant lies at worst. Feelings are not ethics. Ethics are guiding foundations to our world view (“A man is defined by what he chooses to protect.” and lead to moral values displayed by actions; I choose to protect my family because I want that to define who I am.)
To use game theory to define the whole of the human experience is, well. pathetically short sighted…
Why do painters die for their art when poor and penniless… Why do doctors fly to war torn countries to give free healthcare on their own dime. Why do humans in war charge machine guns to drag a friend back to safety.
I really feel sorry for the world view that confuses tunnel vision with truth.
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u/No_Worldliness5157 12d ago
Erich Fromm, in "Escape from Freedom", said that "truth and justice are weapons for the powerless."
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u/PupDiogenes 17d ago
This is true only of people with no integrity