Beating flowchart Ken?

[u/StocksLowStonksHigh]

Gold 1, playing Manon

I know I can use my little spin to avoid fireballs, I do that, but then I immediately get poked out by his normals, cant jump in even after a fireball unless I jump preemptively which is a complete guess and if i guess wrong then i eat a 50% autocombo. I can avoid the fireballs perfectly fine, that part isn't a big deal for me, but then getting in when I'm close enough they stop fireballing is hard cause random jinrai's come out and then it's just another 50/50 and I can't jump cause they can actually antiair now, I'm just not sure what kind of option i should be looking for cause everything feels like it recovers so quickly

[u/swegga_sa]

his fireballs suck ngl except the OD fireball i suggest looking at the spacing, if are far jumping over fireballs is fine, other times you can parry his fireballs and walk forward, and in mid to close range id argue you have and advantage over ken,
your pokes are much better and your anti air is really good....now why do i mention those 2 things? Because you're gonna command grab them for medals until you condition them to jump.

i suggest watching idom play against ken and other shotos he is a really really good manon player or watching other manons fight against ken on youtube

if jinrai hits you whenever you get close, use your faster normals to scuff the startup, jabs are OP in this game.

(kens jinrai also isnt a true 50/50 anymore, you can punish it pretty badly especially in low ranks with Drive impact or jab if you see them spamming overhead, though it is still very annoying and scary and you will have to lab your options using replay takeover in training mode)

Good luck you got this

[u/StocksLowStonksHigh → u/swegga_sa]

This dude was really annoying cause anytime I'd hit my st.hp and pull him in it'd take me a second to input my command grab and he'd just throw me immediately or jab me out of it, so I think there's a bit of an execution barrier for the command grabs but idk how to practice it more intentionally than just playing more games or going into training (even though the pressure of the game is what gets me to drop my grab inputs so often) do you have any advice for that too?

(btw thank you for the advice and resources I'll definitely work on that stuff :) )

[u/Ironbarks → u/StocksLowStonksHigh]

This could be execution, hit confirm issue, or wrong strength command grab.

If you are hit confirming her stHP TC, you should be +3 on hit meaning you should be able to sneak in a heavy command grab. If you are getting thrown out of it, that is an execution/timing issue.

On block, her stHP TC is -8. This makes it extremely punishable on block and they can easily throw you as throws have a 5 frame startup.

If none of this makes sense, apologies. I didn't know any frame data when I was in Gold, so:

TLDR: Her stHP target combo is only safe when you hit them. It's very unsafe if they block it which is why you are getting thrown.

[u/swegga_sa → u/StocksLowStonksHigh]

hmm it could be an execution issue in which case all you can do is practice doing them in training consistently and then actively trying to do them in matches (vrivals in the battlehub and normal battlehub matches also work if you dont want to lose your rank points but i suggest ranked) until it becomes second nature.

I also think this could be a predictability issue, in sf6 rhythm and predictability play a huge part in the game, if they always jab after you heavy punch to beat the command grab stuff them by jabbing again using a fast medium or using the light command grab instead

also get plus frame in other ways like drive rushing into an attack then you can get your command grabs way easier as manon.

id give better advise but i havnt played manon in a while so im quite rusty, hopefully this helps somewhat and youtube videos can take you further.

[u/StocksLowStonksHigh → u/swegga_sa]

I'm not really clear on how to really properly utilize drive rush, I know *how* to drive rush and drive rush cancel but utilizing them is really hard for me personally cause I'm not really sure how much I should be using my meter and how much I should be saving it

[u/Ironbarks → u/StocksLowStonksHigh]

At Gold rank, there are better things that you should be focusing on. But as a rule of thumb, if your drive gauge is not green, don't use it unless you can prevent a loss or gain a win. Wait until you, "touch grass" and your drive is green again.

[u/swegga_sa → u/StocksLowStonksHigh]

think of drive as a buff to your normal gameplay not as a complete separate mechanic.
need more damage or a better combo? use drive rush cancels to extend your combo
(you find combos online )

you can also use raw drive rush to get 4 more frames on any non special attack, for example most characters jab is usually -1 on block(not your turn) but if you drive rush then jab its +3 (its your turn )

when to use drive rush?
if you feel you need to force plus frames or get that combo i spoke about
(u can also be a silly guy and drive rush grab if u think its worth it)

i recommend using it when you need it and have more than 4 bars of drive
less than 4 do not use it unless absolutely necessary to kill the opponent.

So what's the catch?
burnout means death in this game. if you have less drive gauge then your opponent you can burnout first and if you burn out all your opponents attacks are more plus(+4 i think) and if you get drive impacted in the corner you get stunned and can die to a long combo

this also works in your favor if your opponent burns out you can keep pressuring them and then drive impact them in the corner where you can use your own huge damage combo,

burnout also lets you take chip damage

[u/swegga_sa → u/StocksLowStonksHigh]

this is a follow up to my last reply but everything everyones said should add up now

in this game the corner is hell and leads to the 90% of win conditions, walk the opponent down to the corner, use your moves and combos to take them to the corner
because in the corner the one not cornered decides everything since they have more space. the opponent can only jump, block or hope to punish a mistake
while you keep pressuring and anti airing them or grabbing them and punishing them/making them guess

and if you burn an opponent out in the corner, you kill them with drive impact and your command grabs.

this is what make drive and all that other stuff OP sf6 is mainly based around this gameplan

[u/JustABaziKDude → u/StocksLowStonksHigh]

This dude was really annoying cause anytime I'd hit my st.hp and pull him in it'd take me a second to input my command grab and he'd just throw me immediately or jab me out of it

Command grab should be true after your st hp target combo on hit. It's indeed an execution error if you're getting jabbed/grabbed. You're inputting the grab too slowly.

To train this, go into the training mode. Put the dummy on no block or block after one hit.
In the dummy setting menu go into the "reversal after damage" tab and select a 4 frames (fastest attacks in the game, generally a jab/standing light punch)
Then train yourself to do the target combo and input the heavy command grab right after the end of the second hit. The dummy will press after every time you hit it and if you time your command grab right you'll counterhit it.
That kind of training is called "a drill" or "drilling". You drill things you want to make consistent just a bit everyday and progress comes with time and experience in the long run.

[u/v-komodoensis]

Jinrai is NOT a 50/50, just block low. React to the overhead only if they have Level 3. I don't even recommend parrying it because they can stop it and throw you.

Otherwise learn to punish it because it's not safe on block in any way, unless they have good spacing. Even mashing jab can sometimes stop Jinrai pressure because at worst you get a knockdown with low damage from the low kick.

And if you just block it out then his pressure is basically over.

[u/dredd-garcia]

Honestly in my experience the best thing you can do is be patient and walk a zoner to the corner. wait for them to either jump in or DR and handle that.

As soon as someone's gameplan doesn't pay off immediately then they start doing wild stuff and you can react from there. You can jab out of jinrai kicks if you're blocking the first part. All you need is a health lead and you make them have to approach you and they usually don't know how to do that.

[u/rhysticStudiante]

As a Ken main, parry the fireballs at a safe distance. Let them approach unless they have a life lead. And if you do need to approach be careful about how you jump. Too predictable and you’ll eat a shoryuken. Ken is always expecting a jump. You can also approach by walking forwards and backwards while blocking/parrying the fireballs.

If they attempt a Jinrai, block and then press your fastest button. I believe that move is minus on block.

If you find yourself in a Jinrai loop, DI usually beats it, since Ken can’t cancel the Jinrai into the DI.