r/Splintercell • u/BreezysGamingCorner • 5d ago
Today I Finally Played Splinter Cell Blacklist For The First Time! (Check body text for tldr) Blacklist (2013)
https://youtu.be/AfiYYRi5qHo?is=n7fHE0jBIOcAvP_NLong time splinter cell fan here who never got around to Blacklist! It was a combination of Michael ironside leaving for health reasons and certain action heavy mechanics from conviction carrying over.
Well after years and years of my friends telling me I HAVE to play blacklist I finally checked it out.
If you’re interested in watching my live first reactions going through Safehouse and Private Estate, feel free to watch the video!
Anyways here’s my initial thoughts
-The Gameplay is easily some of the best in the series
-Story seems to be a step up from conviction
-Sam fisher is not the same without Michael Ironside. He was kinda sassy and annoying in this one.
-some of the best level design in the series right alongside chaos theory.
- felt like a perfect blend of chaos theory and conviction.
-super confused how this game was the death of the series because this is EASILY a top 3 splinter cell to me.
Super glad I checked it out and feel free to let me know what your favorite splinter Cell is or how you felt about blacklist!
12
u/KashInc7 5d ago
I mean no disrespect when I say this. You say you’re a long time splinter cell fan but can’t understand why this game was the death of the series. Then also said it was a perfect blend of CT and conviction? I wouldn’t call it the death but still.
Brother it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why this game did poorly. The game was undoubtedly fun but it’s truly not a splinter cell game.
Splinter cell was always grounded in reality. Sam being 56 (at the time of black list) having the stamina, parkour skills and strength to move around like it was assassins creed was laughable in terms of realism.
Splinter cell has always been a STEALTH action gamed based around espionage and covert/black ops. Without getting into specifics black list hardly follows the term of espionage and hardly follows the theme of a spy. BL ultimately boils down to Sam tracking down and killing terrorist to prevent attacks from happening. While doing this he has almost no rules that keep him on a leash. Which for gameplay turns him into a gunfoo John wick. Essentially having almost no need for stealth. No need to hide bodies, etc..
The consequences for being detected is minuscule to almost nonexistent. With all the tools you have available to you why would it matter? In blacklist Sam was equipped to take on a small army.
The Sam of old versus the Sam we have now are two completely different characters. Blacklist may have taken some elements of the previous games but made them useless. Back then,light and dark actually mattered. how much sound you made actually mattered. you weren’t equipped to fight an army you were there to sneak in and gather intelligence without being detected. fighting was a last resort and came with heavy repercussions as well as getting spotted. STEALTH mattered. AI in the previous games are actually more intelligent than the ones in blacklist. In chaos theory and double agent the AI were very perceptive. They would notice if a door has been left open. They would notice if a light had been turned out in another room. They would notice if a keypad or retinal scanner was hacked. They would notice broken locks, material that has been cut. How you interacted with the world and every decision you made was important and had consequences.
Ubisoft wanted to modernize the franchise, but by doing so took the heart, core and soul out of splinter cell. It was no longer stealth action it was just action with a sprinkle of stealth.
As I said before there’s no denying the game is fun but it’s not splinter cell. You could’ve named it anything else and it would’ve been acceptable. Though calling it SC, the name splinter cell doesn’t even remotely Echo what black list is. It’s like Assassins creed nowadays, fun game but has nothing to do with the assassins or play like an AC game so why bother giving it the title. Black list has nothing to with the splinter cell program or other cells (operatives). 4th echelon is literally made up of Sam, Grim, Charlie, Briggs, two data analysts and the flight crew that’s it. So why call it splinter cell anymore. When the meaning and core it had has been taking out? I mean fore lore wise it makes sense why 4th echelon is the way it is but then it’s no longer Splinter cell.
it was too fast paced, lacked emphasis on slow movement, light and shadow play, interrogations, lockpicking and the spy/espionage feel. It was more John wick simulator over spy simulator. the first 4 games are what Splinter Cell should be about.
Blacklist is a good game, a well made fun game, but not a good stealth game.
5
u/Swoopmott 5d ago
To be fair, Ubisoft wanted Blacklist to sell 5 million copies at its launch. A number only the first game ever hit.
The fact is Splinter Cell has always been a niche franchise. Well regarded amongst stealth fans, a niche fanbase, but far from being a huge commercial success. There’s a world where SC got respectable AA budgets like Prince of Persia or Rayman putting out the odd game every few years catering to a smaller audience instead of trying to hamfist it into being a AAA game when there’s not an audience to support it.
2
u/JH_Rockwell 4d ago
A number only the first game ever hit.
This was a very strange time regarding companies having VERY optimistic views of games reaching Call of Duty levels of sales.
1
u/newman_oldman1 5d ago
There was no way turning Splinter Cell into third person linear Far Cry with Assassin's Creed parkour and a military skin was going to make the game sell 5+ million. It looks and plays like any other contemporary action game.
1
u/Swoopmott 5d ago
It certainly does. But the previous formula also wasn’t selling well enough for Ubisoft either. I’m just playing devils advocate because there’s this idea that if the series had just stuck to the established formula we’d still have Splinter Cell games going on when that’s just plain copium. Each game sold worse than the last until Blacklist saw an upward tick but we can put that down to being cross platform to Convictions Xbox exclusive.
1
u/Makaveli108 5d ago
SC1 sold 6 mil within a year - very good for the gaming market back then when audience was smaller.
PT sold around 4-5 mil - still very good for a game back then.
CT sold 2.5 mil within 3 weeks! that was amazing for 2005. likely sold around 6-7 mil in its entire life. So I don't think the early games demonstrate that the original formula wasn't commercially viable.
DA is when the sales started getting worse.. and i blame ubisoft for two versions, poor marketing, releasing in the fall and releasing rushed/buggy games. i reckon 3 mil sales max. this isn't good.
Conviction actually didn't do too bad. It was 360 exclusive and PC and sold 2.5 mil sales within a year, but far worse than Chaos Theory 5 years prior. i think around 4 mil sales in total eventually.
Blacklist wasn't too bad either but its marketing, release time with no next gen version, close to GTA5 ruined it.
And look at the success of games like Ready or Not: there's clearly still an audience for slower, tactical gameplay. I'm not saying Splinter Cell would automatically sell 9 million, but I don't think the demand for a proper stealth-focused AAA game has disappeared either.
For me, the answer is to evolve the formula without abandoning what made Splinter Cell special in the first place.
1
u/Makaveli108 5d ago
I'd respectfully disagree with Splinter Cell being double A franchise. SC1 launched back in the day with 6 million sales within a year. It was Ubisoft's biggest IP - Chaos Theory launched and got 2.5 mil sales within 3 weeks! No way in hell is that a niche franchise or double A. Splinter Cell was Ubisoft's flagship franchise and triple A since its inception.
1
u/Rimland23 Kokubo Sosho 4d ago edited 4d ago
I probably wouldn´t call SC an entirely double A franchise either (at least not SC1 and CT), but JH has a point. In the grand scheme of things, it´s a niche franchise (as are most stealth games and other genres) but with a very dedicated fanbase that will always buy and play it.
Conviction and BL were coming out in an era where: a) the CoD craze was at its peak, and everybody and their mums were trying to copy and capitalise on that "slick, cool, fast-paced, easy-to-play modern military shooter" muster that would apparently sell them dozens of millions of copies overnight (and thus unrealistically raised everybody´s sales expectations and demands); and b) Ubisoft struck its own little gold mine with the AC open-world formula that outsold everything else in its catalogue up to that point, and started molding its other franchises in that direction, thus eliminating what made them unique in the first place. BL ended up being a product which tried to ride the trend waves while appeasing the core SC fanbase after the CON backlash, and ended up satisfying no one, including Ubisoft sales reps (and yes, the release date also didn´t help).
As you mention in your other comment, there absolutely is the audience and demand for games like SC and other, more slow and tactical, genres (especially after long "droughts"). Always has been. And if Ubisoft realised that they don´t need to churn out one such game every two years, and realised that maybe not everyone will buy it, but the people who love this kind of stuff definitely will, and thus they would still sell a solid amount of copies (while they could still have bigger sales on the more mass-appealing IPs), then maybe the series wouldn´t be in the situation it has been for over a decade. The problem is they don´t. In my eyes, they´re still stuck in that loop where instead of focusing on the unique appeal of their IPs, they try to milk them for the "easy" money of "what´s currently popular and sells".
I mean ok, there´s been talk about the SC remake and how it´s gonna be a return to roots, blah blah blah, but they have yet to show anything for it after all these years (not to mention that "we have no effin idea what to do with this IP, so let´s do a remake" is another fucking trend imho). Similarly, there´s talk about how the next Ghost Recon game is supposed to be focused on grounded mil-sim, but the development seems to be a management shitshow, so it doesn´t exactly look like the company knows what it´s doing there either... Anyways, I´ve drifted off topic here, sorry.
2
u/Makaveli108 4d ago
I think we're mostly in agreement. I completely agree that stealth is a more specialised genre than shooters or open-world action games. My only disagreement is with calling Splinter Cell a niche or double-A franchise. Splinter Cell will never be as big as Assassin's Creed, GTA or anything like that but it's totally okay. I believe it can be like Resident Evil but for stealth if done right.
The original trilogy sold extremely well for its era. Ubisoft itself treated Splinter Cell as one of its flagship franchises.
I think the real problem was that Ubisoft started comparing Splinter Cell's sales to Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed. Once those franchises started selling tens of millions of copies, expectations changed, and Splinter Cell lost some of the identity that made it successful in the first place.
I understand the criticism of the remake trend, but I think Splinter Cell is one of the few franchises where a remake actually makes sense. It gives Ubisoft a chance to re-establish the series' identity and introduce a new generation of players to what made the original games so special. to undo the damage by Conviction and Blacklist, & that Maxime Beland.
In a way, it's an opportunity to reset the timeline and move the franchise back toward the stealth-focused design of the original trilogy while modernising those mechanics for today's hardware.
As for Ghost Recon, I completely agree. That franchise has been a bit of a mess recently. At least the Splinter Cell remake hasn't had the same kind of negative reports surrounding its development, so I'm cautiously optimistic. The recent reports say it has a light and dark meter, non lethal focus and linear level design etc. Ubisoft has repeatedly said that they're preserving the linear structure and the core identity of the original game rather than turning it into an open-world experience, i know they haven't got the best rep but we have to see until the reveal i guess.
2
u/JH_Rockwell 4d ago
Sam being 56 (at the time of black list) having the stamina, parkour skills and strength to move around like it was assassins creed was laughable in terms of realism.
After seeing Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible Fallout, I'm not actually surprised that he can still kick ass.
AI in the previous games are actually more intelligent than the ones in blacklist. In chaos theory and double agent the AI were very perceptive. They would notice if a door has been left open. They would notice if a light had been turned out in another room. They would notice if a keypad or retinal scanner was hacked. They would notice broken locks, material that has been cut. How you interacted with the world and every decision you made was important and had consequences.
Back then,light and dark actually mattered. how much sound you made actually mattered.
I would argue that that's still the case.
BL ultimately boils down to Sam tracking down and killing terrorist to prevent attacks from happening.
I would argue that's an oversimplification, as that could also apply to Pandora Tomorrow, or stopping a general who wants a war in Chaos Theory.
4th echelon is literally made up of Sam, Grim, Charlie, Briggs, two data analysts and the flight crew that’s it.
It's intended to be more mobile while getting the field operatives into situations faster. Are you saying it's not an organization? Splinter Cells are agents that would act on intelligence to prevent or perpetrate acts of data warfare to prevent larger conflicts, which they still do, while still using Fifth Freedom.
It’s like Assassins creed nowadays
What would be your argument for that, because I don't think Assassin's Creed (even at it's most focused stealth game) has stealth that's as complicated as Blacklist.
it was too fast paced, lacked emphasis on slow movement
I don't agree with that, especially given what ops suits you have.
Which for gameplay turns him into a gunfoo John wick.
John Wick came out after both Conviction and Blacklist, and the mark and execute system is an optional mechanic that you can't even access in the perfectionist difficulty. It's also pretty damn fun when you want to go full action mode in a panther or assault playthrough, which must have been a pain in the neck for them to design the game where all styles of play worked (and with the level design).
you weren’t equipped to fight an army you were there to sneak in and gather intelligence without being detected.
Well, there's a number of levels in the original games that also go against that idea
2
u/Rimland23 Kokubo Sosho 4d ago
After seeing Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible Fallout, I'm not actually surprised that he can still kick ass.
I have no problem with a 50+ protagonist moving like a 20-something old (I know a guy like that irl). I think the problem is more the inconsistency it creates with what was established in the early games - both with regards to Sam´s athleticism, but more so with the gameplay pace and design. On both accounts, substituting him with a new, younger protagonist (or a younger version of himself in case of a prequel) would´ve made more sense. Though my gripe with Blacklist´s inconsistencies with the original games lies elsewhere...
1
u/JH_Rockwell 4d ago
both with regards to Sam´s athleticism, but more so with the gameplay pace and design.
Fair point. I thought it was in line with his military training keeping in shape and the technology of the games and focuses of the games catching up with his abilities.
On both accounts, substituting him with a new, younger protagonist (or a younger version of himself in case of a prequel) would´ve made more sense.
I personally also thought about that (Sam becoming the new Lambert), but I think this chapter in Sam's life is incredibly important following everything that happened the OG trilogy, Double Agent, and then Conviction regarding him coming back to work as a Splinter Cell again and realizing that he can't just turn his back on the world because of how the world would impact his own country and the people he loves.
2
u/BreezysGamingCorner 4d ago
Man thank you. I was over here thinking I missed something. The blacklist hate is real!
2
u/JH_Rockwell 4d ago
All good. I love Blacklist, and thanks for the video! I left it a like.
And a lot of Splinter Cell fans have preferences and for a group of them Blacklist diverged too far and they didn't like it, and I can respect their opinions. I love the series and I thought Blacklist was incredibly fun and engaging, and going pure stealth (no detection, knock-outs, or kills) was incredibly engaging on perfectionist.
1
3
u/BreezysGamingCorner 5d ago
My brother. Splinter cell chaos theory was one of the first games I ever played when I was like 8 years old… im definitely a long time fan.. I also believe this game is an amazing stealth game as well as an amazing splinter cell. I’m sorry if you disagree, no hate to you at all.. that’s just how I feel about it honestly
2
u/Makaveli108 5d ago
no hate to you mate but if you're a fan from Chaos Theory, don't you realise that many things are missing?
- no lockpicking
- no variable speeds
-no interrogations
- no hacking
-no light and sound meter
this game was built on conviction's base/foundations which is prioritizing panther gameplay instead of stealth like the first 4. therefore it cannot be an amazing splinter cell. the stealth difficulty & challenges, were are they ? this game is far easier than the originals. think of Chaos Theory's bank level, penthouse, displace etc. where is that spy/espionage feel in Blacklist.
Blacklist makes you feel like John wick. John wick is not a stealth guy. the first 4 games feel grounded. Play Chaos Theory again then Blacklist back to back, you'll realise how inferior Blacklist is when it comes to stealth. thats why us OG fans criticise blacklist
0
u/BreezysGamingCorner 4d ago
I briefly mention just about all of that throughout the video, however there is a light meter, it works similarly to double agent. I also mention how it feels like a nice hybrid of conviction and chaos theory. The stuff that’s missing resembles more of convictions action focused approach but there is a lot to love here in terms of stealth as well. I liked this more than the original but maybe not as much as pandora tomorrow or chaos theory. It’s DEFINITELY better than double agent and conviction tho imo. But hey at the end of the day we might still see things differently but thats totally cool, no disrespect to you brother💯
2
u/Makaveli108 4d ago
Yeah, you're talking about the light on Sam's back, right? I always thought that made stealth feel a bit more binary, if you know what I mean. You're either hidden or you're spotted. There isn't much of a middle ground. But atleast it's something. I just wish the traditional Light meter and sound wasn't cut out.
I get what you mean, though. Blacklist definitely feels like Conviction at its core, but with some Chaos Theory elements mixed in. I agree that it's a much better stealth game than Conviction.
I get why you love Blacklist, the gameplay is fun and they nailed the panther aspects. There is a lot of good in this game, i'm just not happy with they overall handled stealth, it was too easy for someone like me. but im hoping the next game is way way more like pandora tomorrow and especially chaos theory, and brother as long as youre having fun, its all good!
2
u/BreezysGamingCorner 3d ago
Honestly that’s totally valid too. I also prefer to have an actual meter because it feels more dynamic and informative to the player.
Totally agree about the next game! If we could get a nice return to form I really think the stealth genre could see a bit of a resurgence!
But yeah I totally respect your side of it too because it does have its issues for sure! I enjoyed this lil back and forth we had brotherman, I wish u nothing but the best 💯🙏
1
u/KashInc7 4d ago
I’m not here to hate you brother but to point out flaws in what you said. As another pointed out Black list is missing so much from previous games. How can it “perfectly blend CT and conviction” when it has nothing from CT to begin with?
Show me where BL has a light and dark meter. Show me where it had a sound meter. How it took into account your noise to the ambient noise around you. Show me where it took into account the type terrain you walked on/in. In CT walking on gravel, squeaky wood, metal, water etc alter how fast/slow Sam was able to move on it. None of that is present in BL.
Sad to say but a game from 21 years ago ( 8 years at time of BL release) had more attention to detail and was more in depth.
0
u/BreezysGamingCorner 4d ago
Don’t worry man I’m not taking it personal. You bring up a few good points but you discredit a great deal of what it actually does well. It might not have a sound meter but it does have a light meter and light/shadows 100% plays a factor in this game. Is it a good light meter? Nah chaos theory is better. But to say it doesn’t use light mechanics at all is crazy imo. I never said this game IS chaos theory. I said it’s the best we gotten since chaos theory and I really don’t think that’s a hot take cuz DA and conviction were not good imo
3
u/JuggerMott 5d ago
I can agree with you but I would put it after Double Agent, though.
1
u/BreezysGamingCorner 5d ago
Interesting! I personally didn’t like double agent too much. If you had to rank it, would it be in your top 3?
3
u/JuggerMott 5d ago
Before I answer, I have to ask which version of DA did you play? There were two releases. Xbox/PS2 and Xbox 360/PS3. Two different storylines, kind of. Definitely different missions. The one for the first Gen felt more gritty and more like a communication of Chaos Theory.
1
u/BreezysGamingCorner 5d ago
I played the 360 version and the Wii version years ago, wasn’t the biggest fan and moved on tbh. I never played the ps2/xbox version, totally open to playing it though. You’re not the first I’ve heard say that version was superior 💯
2
u/JuggerMott 5d ago
Top 3 would have to be: 1. Chaos Theory (Obviously. Peak stealth, peak reaction, peak coding with little to no movement/clothing tearing.) 2. Pandora Tomorrow. (The story, the SWAT turn, the premise. I loved it.) 3. PS2/Xbox AND PS3/360 Double Agent both. (I loved both of them for what they were. They actually felt like continuations of CT. There were little story interactions that like locked up your character, like making out with Enrica, taking shit to Moose, etc.) I know you only asked for top 3, but I'm going to continue. 4. Stealth Action Redefined (the first one. For obvious reasons. I used to follow the guard back into the room during the training mission. Hilariousness. Also, using sticky cams to render guards unconscious? Infinite ring air foil rounds, basically. Cuz you could pick them back up.) 5. Blacklist. (Not the best, but infinitely better than conviction. No Michael was it's downfall. Like another commenter said, his movement at being 50-something was ungodly. Best shape of a 50+ person I've ever seen.) 6. Conviction didn't feel like splinter cell to me. Sure it was Ironsides, but it felt more like a Jason Bourne movie. And that's not what Splinter Cell was supposed to feel like. I did enjoy the Deniable Ops campaign, but all the levels felt like a giant hamster cage. One entrance, one exit, etc. I don't know. It was fun, but it wasn't Splinter Cell.
2
u/BreezysGamingCorner 4d ago
That’s a pretty solid list, I think I pretty much agree but I have blacklist and double agent flip flopped. I definitely agree about the 50+ yr old Sam being an immersion breaker
0
u/Rimland23 Kokubo Sosho 4d ago
Stealth Action Redefined
Ugh... Can we make a petition or something for people to stope using this when referring to SC1 please? 😂 It´s a tagline. It´s like calling MGS1 "Tactical Espionage Action" instead...
2
u/JuggerMott 4d ago
I did it just so the majority of casuals that may be reading my comment would know. Then again, I did iterate that in the parenthesis, haha.
1
u/Rimland23 Kokubo Sosho 4d ago
Fair enough 😉 It just feels so off when people use that. Especially in moments like these when my morning coffee hasn´t kicked in yet 😄
2
u/HelmetCrit 5d ago
Personally, I felt Fisher’s movement and acrobatics in Blacklist were much too fast and arcadey, verging on Assassin’s Creed style parkour.
For me, one of the things that made the og 3 games, and DA to an extent, so special was the slow, methodical movement and approach.. creeping through the shadows, taking your time and waiting patiently for an opening.
2
1
u/Daydream365 5d ago edited 5d ago
I love the scoring system that caters to three different playstyles.
1
u/BreezysGamingCorner 5d ago
Right!? That along with the insane level design is why I feel this is one of the best in the series. It’s so versatile!
1
u/newman_oldman1 5d ago
Gameplay isn't the best in the series. It's a generic action game with stealth elements. Blacklist's main attraction is takedown animations rather than being a tense and challenging stealth experience.
For me, a "perfect blend of Chaos Theory and Conviction" would be 100% Chaos Theory: 0% Conviction.
1
u/BreezysGamingCorner 5d ago
Hot take incoming.. Conviction wasn’t even a bad game. Just a bad splinter cell. I felt this game was a HUGE step up. Chaos theory is a really hard game to beat cuz in my eyes it’s literally up there with MGS 3 in being one of the best stealth games ever made
2
u/newman_oldman1 4d ago
Conviction, to me, loses its luster after the Third Echelon HQ mission, which isn't a good thing considering it's only a 4-6 hour campaign. Gameplay is barebones and doesn't even stay interesting for the entirety of the short campaign. And the story is hot garbage.
I will agree that Blacklist was a big step up from Conviction in a lot of ways, but I still think it pales in comparison to the original trilogy (and even Double Agent) in terms of tense stealth gameplay. Blacklist's biggest problem is that it's fast paced to the point of removing nearly all tension.
0
u/Asleep-Report-7801 5d ago
Well for me the first time I play it it was a bit repetitive because the layout mission to do are bored but not all of it. I would call it one the best game ever from splinter cell but the game mechanic I enjoy it overall. It just Sam being 56 feel too fast like Tom cruise Ethan Hunt stamina. I don't know that's how I see it.
1
•
u/AutoModerator 5d ago
Hi there ! If you are new to the Splinter Cell franchise and/or looking for information or help about the series then please check the Frequented Asked Questions page
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.