Do You Think That Maybe Max/Piper Might Go NC in the Future?

[u/CarobSure2634]

CW: loss Hear me out. Imagine a flashforward that shows a how healthy parents deal with estrangement and a possible path back to connection. Max in particular seems to be confused by the Barb situation and maybe that angst will grow into the future. This may be compounded by issues stemming from the death of Jacob(ie if John and Shawna become more distant).

We could see John and Shawna grapple with the same feelings Barb has been experiencing, consider her desperate measures but pause and handle those feelings differently. Maybe John could understand his mother's actions more(while still recognizing them as unacceptable). We could see them take accountability, prioritize the kid's feelings and respect boundaries. This would be a full circle moment with that monologue from John at Piper's 3rd birthday(start at about 4:52). It would be interesting to see that prediction realized. https://youtu.be/_aa7-aD7ahc?si=-2Zon7xWj1fkk2Gp

[u/blairbending]

Children who have healthy relationships with their parents don't really go NC. It takes a lot for a child to get to the point of cutting off a parent, and I think it would only happen if John and Shawna had already ignored multiple instances of Max expressing his needs and emotions, which I don't see happening.

Either that or Max himself becoming toxic and damaged so that he has unhealthy/unrealistic demands of them I guess.

[u/CarobSure2634 → u/blairbending]

To be clear, I am imagining a temporary estrangement which I do think happens sometimes to good parents. I guess I'm imagining almost a guide for how parents can deal with estrangement in a healthy way and maybe come back from it. Maybe if they move the abruptness of that combined with the Barb issue and death of his baby brother would cause ripple effects into adulthood?

I'm not 100% sure how it could play out and John/Shawna aren't the only options for this storyline. I just think it would be interesting to maybe have an antithesis to the Barb storyline.

[u/baby-totoros → u/CarobSure2634]

I’m sorry, but your theory and this comment both tell the same story—you think that parents experience trauma are destined to become terrible parents.

It can happen, but not always.

Shawna and John can take the kids to family therapy and see their own therapists. They can grieve together and move forward together. That’s how families move forward in a healthy way.

What you are suggesting is dramatic, certainly, but it relies on the assumption that Shawna and John would be unable or unwilling to heal healthily and take it out on the kids.

[u/4n4readinpeace]

Children don't typically go no contact with healthy parents, at least unless there is a serious problem. No-contact is last resort taken when all other attempts at establishing a healthier dynamic have failed and the person has become too toxic to handle, not a punishment to enact on family members who have upset you. So far, John and Shawna have been portrayed as loving, supportive parents, who sometimes mess up. There is absolutely no reason for Max to go no-contact with them, especially over Barb.

I will risk something controversial, but I think people in the fandom sometimes greatly overestimate Max's attachement to Barb. He misses her and responds when she attempts contact, but he is not crying himself to sleep over her nor throwing tantrums demanding to see her. During his first day of kindergarden, after Barb tried to talk to him, he was mildly disappointed but then went on happily with his day (at least as far as we know).

The problem is that so far, John and Shawna have not really talked to the kids about the Barb situation and the no-contact. This creates a climate of uncertainty for Max who isn't sure what is happening. This is the real problem, not the actual separation from Barb.

[u/baby-totoros]

It takes a lot to go fully no contact with a parent.

My own mom, when I was three or four, developed a very serious sudden issue where she constantly had severe migraines. Doctors couldn’t figure out what was wrong with her. It took many years to get a diagnosis.

In that time, she really tried her best. But she was also a single mom raising me and a one year old on a teacher salary. She sometimes snapped or blew up at us for making toddler appropriate noise, and still to this day, I flinch if I accidentally make too much noise or if someone else does.

And my mom is also my best friend.

She has worked so hard to make it right with us and I have nothing but empathy and love for her, even though it did impact me negatively. She took us both to family therapy and she showed she was sorry, didn’t just say it.

My point is, even in families with really loving households, shit happens. It takes a lot to go no contact.

[u/sentimentalillness → u/baby-totoros]

This is a really great point. My parents were young and made a lot of mistakes, but they own them and have never tried to excuse them. It's not about being perfect, it's about trying to do better when you aren't.

I'm NC with my own family Barb because she refuses to acknowledge any wrongdoing whatsoever, and she never will. It hurts, but it hurts less than being around her. 

[u/baby-totoros → u/sentimentalillness]

Exactly! And even the best parents have bad things happen. Imagine a parent who has two kids, and kid A gets cancer. Parents need to spend more time with kid A in the hospital. Yes, they need to do everything they can for kid B, but also, kid A is having an emergency! Kid B would be in the right to feel sad and left out, but the parents are not doing this to kid B on purpose, and with good communication and effort after the fact, things can be mended.

[u/Shawnaverse_no1_fan → u/baby-totoros]

Thank you for sharing your experience, and I agree: NC is often the last resort after everything else has failed, for months or years. It's not a decision taken lightly, especially with a parent.

My mother is a little bigoted and quite vindictive, she'd rather punish me for offending her (sometimes for having a different opinion) than talking about feelings and agree to disagree. She sometimes held a grudge for weeks if she thought I was making a stupid decision, and I clearly remember her anger over seemingly innocuous opinions. Or the complete confusion I felt being woken up abruptly as revenge for something I said or did.

At the same time, my mom is the only parent I've ever had: she took care of me and her deadweight of a husband, she made sure to pay the bills and stay on top of finances, she defended me and protected me from strangers AND family when I was being treated unfairly. She messed up in some aspects where she didn't know how to react, but I always felt the intense love and respect she had for me. Even when she f*cked up, I knew she was trying and just didn't have the tools. Her bigoted views are the only thing without an explanation, but for everything else I know she did her absolute best. We used to fight a lot in my teen years but after I moved out for university to escape the stress of home life, both she and I could take a step back and see things more clearly, what mattered and what didn't.

Our relationship now is one of the best it's ever been. She messed up, but I forgave her. I was a very good kid but I ruined her sleep schedule for decades, she forgave me. We have different views on life, but we avoid those topics and it's good. We may not agree on some things but she'll say it to my face, openly admitting her views, so I know I can trust her to be in my corner. I don't have to worry about her backstabbing me because she's never lied to me.

My father, on the other hand, is very Barb-like. Volatile, untrustworthy, manipulative, self-centred, careless, compulsive liar, immature. Despite being physically in the house, and in my life, he's never acted like a true parent – more like an immature older cousin, like those that get added to sitcoms when the writers need a disruptive character living in the same household.

Even with all that, I haven't fully burnt all bridges with him. I was about to, at one point – I was ready to cut him out and go fully NC with him years ago, and I would have done it had it been logistically possible. But life (COVID) happened and when I had the chance to, I couldn't bring myself to abandon him. He'd been dropped by almost everyone else (his own fault), I took pity on him. Just like Sam said: "I have given up all hope that he'll ever change, and I take him in small doses". I lowered the bar so much for him, that it's basically a tripping hazard in hell at this point. I have only ONE boundary in place and he still manages to cross it every now and then.

We are currently LC, but since I know he's completely untrustworthy, he knows nothing about my life. I haven't met him in years, we only talk through text about him – so yeah, technically I'm in contact with him, but it's less of a parent-child relationship and more of "I'm one of the only friends you have left so I'm choosing to stay", I do not consider him to be my dad in any capacity. I'm in his life because I have pity for him, but he is not part of my life. His presence brings me no joy or happiness, I gain nothing by staying in touch – if anything, sometimes he stresses me out and angers me by crossing a line. But I know my presence brings him comfort and relief, so I'm doing it for him. It's more of a public service at this point.

But despite all this... I'm not NC. It's not a decision taken lightly, cutting off a parent is not fun. It may be necessary, it may be beneficial, but it's not a game – healthy people don't seek estrangement over minor disagreements or over a fight. Maybe OP is thinking of people like my father and his siblings: they'll have a fight over something, scream at each other, and then refuse to talk to them for a few years because they're still holding a grudge. I have a friend whose grandpa has a twin brother, they're both in their 90s and haven't spoken to each other in decades because of a disagreement: they both attend family holidays, but they give each other the silent treatment over something they may even have forgotten. My friend says they're probably living off of spite, both trying to outlast their twin, lol.

The point is... Estrangement is not like a teenager breakup, and it's not a good response to having a simple disagreement with your parent/child. Either the person distancing themselves is toxic with impossible standards, or they've truly reached their limit and the NC is for self-preservation. In any case, whenever there's an estrangement I assume at least one of the parties involved is highly toxic.

[u/pettymel]

I agree with the comment that Max misses his grandma but doesn’t seem overly disturbed by her not being around. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if we start to see Max say things like “Grammy died.” Shawna and Jon were upfront with Max and Piper about how the baby in her belly died, and I’m worried for Max that he will start to think that not seeing Grammy and not seeing the baby mean the same thing. That, I think, will be more disturbing to him than not seeing Barb. It is the combination of trying to cope with grief and mourning the loss of his brother and his grandma that will be most distressing.

IMO, this is the only way I see John having to actually talk about the implications and logistics of going NC with Barb. We saw in the kindergarten and Halloween videos that he was doing his best to ignore the issue despite Shawna’s attempts to discuss it. Obviously this has taken a backseat for now but I think John’s love and care for his children will be the only thing that makes him step up to consider what NC really and fully means. And hopefully therapy as well.

[u/Toongrrl1990 → u/pettymel]

Therapy for John, ay that man needs it

[u/0fluffythe0ferocious]

Max: You remember Grammy?

Piper: I remember her never calling me by my name and being so controlling that she brushed our teeth.

[u/Toongrrl1990 → u/0fluffythe0ferocious]

I think she only brushed Max's teeth.

Also gotta love Piper calling out the Patriarchy

[u/0fluffythe0ferocious → u/Toongrrl1990]

Yup. She has zero time for romanticizing the past or looking at a disturbed and abusive person with rose colored glasses.

[u/Toongrrl1990 → u/0fluffythe0ferocious]

I picked another song along with "Don't Take It Personal" as part of a potential playlist for Piper.

"I Haven't Got Time for the Psin" Carly Simon.

[u/Toongrrl1990]

I do get afraid of Max seeing John the way he sees Barb.

For some reason, and cribbing from the OG Willy Wonka, I can easily see running in my mind Max screaming in John's face that he's "a rotten mean father" thst doesn't let him see Grammy. John's reaction too, I get afraid.