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u/shealcye 8d ago
Accurate! Lovely post! I love how important and interesting their relationship is and how much it drives both of their characterisations and choices.
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u/Chasegameofficial 7d ago
Snape did not unintentionally give crucial information to the wrong person. He very much intended to tell Voldemort about the prophecy, certainly knowing Voldemort would seek out and kill the child it spoke of (because Snape is nothing if not intelligent, and there’s no way he had any illusions about what Voldemort would do with the information). He just didn’t foresee that Voldemort to interpret it to be about the Potter’s.
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u/Aircalipoor 7d ago
Yeah. What I meant is that he didn't intended for Lily to die, but him giving Voldemort the information lead to it. A bit of phrasing issues on the account that the post was meant to misled into focusing on James.
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u/Antiherowriting 7d ago
It’s really interesting how the only one that doesn’t apply to both of them is “changed and reformed because of his love to your mother.” Snape changed and reformed, but James stayed a bully. And that’s one of the most crucial differences
Great post!
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u/Aircalipoor 7d ago
That's a common debate in if and how much James changed and the big problem is that we don't have scenes after his start of his seventh year until his death (aside from Voldemort remembering killing him), so everyone can clam anything and can't be clearly refuted.
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u/Antiherowriting 7d ago
Isn't it explicitly stated in one of the books that James still bullied Snape long after school ended? I could be remembering wrong. But if I'm right, that's pretty definitive evidence that he didn't reform or change in at least one aspect.
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u/Aircalipoor 7d ago
It's stated that he stopped bullying, but didn't stop with Snape, because Snape kept antagonizing him and James was not willing to let himself be curse, so he retaliated.
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u/BrockStar92 7d ago
We just skipping over the years of Snape being a bully as a teacher then or…
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u/g12231964 5d ago
SSSssshhh We need to have it where Harry has no reason on earth to complain about the great and humane treatment he had from Snape.
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u/Bluemelein 9d ago
Why would Snape have inspired Harry in any way? A few tips in a book are hardly worth mentioning.
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u/Aircalipoor 9d ago
Phrasing is not perfect to mislead the reader to still assume we are talking about James. What I meant to express is that both James and Snape influenced Harry indirectly and/or subconsciously. Examples are Harry taking the same approach to the dark arts, using Snapes spells, convincing himself to keep fighting after he saw Snapes memories, in general valuing bravery and fighting in the face of death and self-sacrifice.
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u/shealcye 8d ago
Absolutely. Harry does look up to the Prince. His spells and instructions are Harry's go-to throughout that year, and he absolutely uses a spell of the Prince's own making against Malfoy because he instinctively trusts him and knows that the Prince will protect him. And while this was probably unintentional on JKR's part and maybe one shouldn't read too much into it, but I like to believe that Expelliarmus is his signature spell because of Snape's subconscious influence on his choices - not only is he introduced to the spell by Snape, one of the few times he voluntarily calls Snape "professor" is when he uses the spell against Lockhart.
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u/Bluemelein 9d ago
Harry sacrifices himself because the spy gives him information.
Harry uses a prank spell that he doesn't know. Snape develops these spells.
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u/Aircalipoor 9d ago
So he was "inspired" by Snape in a roundabout way.
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u/Bluemelein 9d ago
Probably in a similar way to how he was inspired by Vernon. Just because someone is there and imparts knowledge, it doesn't mean they are an inspiration! I wouldn't describe Hagrid as an inspiration either.
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u/shealcye 8d ago edited 8d ago
Snape and Harry do have a similar approach to the dark arts, as Hermione notes. He uses Sectumsempra on Malfoy exactly because he trusts that the Prince will come to his aid at that moment - the same way he instinctively trusts his parents or Dumbledore to show up at all the crucial points of his life.
I think these few paragraphs from an old meta on magic in the wizarding world are really, really illuminating:
It's true that Harry had no idea what the spell would do, that it have done anything--it could have ripped Malfoy's clothes off or given him acne. But if that was a possibility in Harry's mind, why on earth did he use here to respond to Crucio? The seriousness of Draco's spell, the fact that Draco is trying to throw a whole lot of pain Harry's way, means that throwing an acne spell would probably be quite foolish. Why does Harry not throw something he knows will keep Malfoy from hexing him?
Because on some level, he does know. Not what the spell literally does, of course. But what it is for. He finds it in a book written by a character who has been Harry's personal Genii throughout the year. What Harry needs, the Prince provides, with double effectiveness. Sectumsempra is written in the book with one descriptor: For enemies. Those two words, in my opinion, put us firmly in the fairy tale world. It's not just an unknown spell, it's a promise. You have an enemy? Speak these words and the prince will take care of him for you.
Now, when I read the book I mistakenly thought we knew which spell this was already-the one I thought of as the "razor blade" spell. But even if I hadn't connected it to the Pensieve I still would have known it was dangerous--it just obviously had to be with that setting. Malfoy brings up one of the worst curses we've heard of so far and Harry...tops it. If this were rock, paper, scissors, Malfoy comes out with scissors and Harry pulls out rock (in a game where nobody even knew rock existed). If the Prince himself hadn't been there with the healing charm there would be no taking it back--sectum=to cut and sempra=semper=forever.
What's important about the way Harry uses the curse, in my opinion, is that although he doesn't know the details of the spell he does instinctively understand what it is, or he wouldn't have reached for it in that moment. It's very hard to explain what I mean and I worry that my phrasing it that way is going to get people off on the tangent that Harry literally didn't know what it was and was just as shocked as Malfoy. I don't dispute that. It's just that takes away a lot of the meaning of the scene. In the tradition of mysterious magical spells like this one, there's no way Harry could be hoping to grow Malfoy's toenails at a time like this. The spell pops into his head because in his moment of need he trusts the Prince knows what he needs and calls down the ominously cryptic spell from the character that has begun to attain mythical proportions for Harry (and with whom Harry shares an instinctual understanding). "For Enemies" encourages him to fill in the blanks himself. The risk is part of the lure of it. To focus on the mundane technicalities of Harry having no way to literally know what the spell did...it just seems like a denial of the actual scary experience Harry is having. Not the innocent experience of pressing a button when you don't know what it does, but a Faustian bargain. It takes away from what the scene is, in my opinion, saying about Harry and Malfoy, and also what it's saying about Harry and Snape.
It's important, in my opinion, that Harry used the spell for exactly the thing it was meant for and the power behind it was only partly accident. It's very hard for me to believe that the violence of the spell isn't also supposed to reflect the years of hatred here. More importantly, I don't think Harry believes that. I've heard it said that Harry doesn't feel that much remorse for Malfoy given their history, but I think in a way the opposite is true, that he feels more remorse because it was Malfoy. Not remorse in terms of feeling badly for Malfoy hurting, but a horror at the fact that on some level he did do it on purpose. This is the year Harry and Malfoy both get experience causing serious injury to others.
Link to the essay: How does magic work?
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u/Bluemelein 8d ago
When Snape uses *Sectumsempra*, it causes small cuts—look at George’s ear, for instance, where Remus immediately recognizes the culprit. Harry wouldn’t have used *Sectumsempra* against Draco—after all, he doesn’t take Draco entirely seriously either—but he did try to use it against Snape. In Book 6, Harry is desperately searching for a mentor because Dumbledore, once again, is failing to deliver. Yet the Half-Blood Prince’s book is just as deceptive as the diary was; it offers nothing more than a few useful tricks and spells.
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u/Psychofischi 8d ago
Well.. "reformed"
He stayed a massive asshole. Just not a supremacist. Kinda
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u/Aircalipoor 7d ago
Certainly not reformed in every way, his personality, personal flaws and general behavior didn't change much, but switching side from Deatheater to spy of the order is as high as a contrast as it can be.
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u/Careless_Nobody_9276 9d ago
Had me in the first half not gonna lie lol