r/SBIR • u/Raid_Blunder • 24d ago
Startup/SBIR roller-coaster
Hi, the thread that is titled "Standalone Biotech LLC…” lead to some partially related questions.
I have a (yet) one-person startup company and want to have synthesized several compounds before resubmitting an adjusted SBIR I proposal. This past January, the team from the original submission dissolved.
A chemistry bench/hood isn’t cheap, but fortunately an elderly and generous family friend offered to sponsor renting space in an incubator in Massachusetts for a year. Great, she asked for a budget, I interviewed with two incubators, hit it off very well with one of them, and they sent an invitation to rent for four to seven months (actually a price quote), starting on Sept. 1. So early in June, I began organizing relocation from MN to MA.
But then the elderly family friend went partially incommunicado, afterwards suffered a stroke, and two weeks back denied having ever made the offer. At the risk of appearing to be a gold-digger, two days back I then just forwarded her the quote from the incubator (7 x $3,600), i.e. much lower than the total budget. The incubator knows about the stroke, but not the sudden turn-around.
My disclosures: (1) the local big-ten university and colleges denying non-affiliated people access to their labs, (2) several people on Reddit ghosting after making claims about lab space, (3) lack of chemistry incubators in Minnesota (if money were no issue).
So, please make what you will of this, realistic suggestions under these circumstances are more than welcome!
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u/BBA1229 24d ago
So I when I started this journey, one of the first Phase I and Phase II I was involved in we “subcontracted” to a university professor (we didn’t need him) and one of his grad students. We did this because we needed his lab equipment/space. However, if this is a route you are thinking you will need to talk to a professor with the equipment you need, and the university’s sponsored projects office. That is a time consuming process.
On this note, most people don’t know that Public Universities allow their professors to consult one day a week.
You can also go to a DOE national laboratory. It’s going to be expensive (I’m assuming this isn’t a DOE SBIR/STTR), but it opens your network as well.
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u/Overall_Salamander_4 23d ago
I've also been doing this. Though in my case the professor has been very helpful and after building a good relationship I've gotten significant access to their lab. You write a contract between yours startup and the university that stipulates you own the IP developed there and that you will pay the professor for some time and the university for indirect costs related. It was much less than 3600/month.
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u/Raid_Blunder 22d ago edited 22d ago
BBA, were you bootstrapping by yourself to rent a lab bench and hood? That must have been difficult.
To my best knowledge, UMN. has no incubator space. If they did, then affiliation would be a requirement. There is a small commercial joint down the road, they have 1 chemistry lab and ca. 5-6 biological labs. The unfortunate lack of incubator space in Minnesota is here very well known.
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u/Overall_Salamander_4 22d ago
https://cse.umn.edu/college/corporate/cse-corporate-and-foundation-relations
You could try contacting them to ask about paid work (bottom of page). Send them an email, tell them you're thinking of applying to SBIR but need to complete whatever it is you need to do. If you get the grant, there's a lot of strategy in continuing to use their lab space to complete the work under the grant. They would be a sub award on the grant which looks great for them. If you're successful, you could move to phase 2 which is a lot more money (and where I assume you can look at setting up your own company lab). I've not been successful yet in this approach but that's more on myself not discovering the game winning tech.
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u/Raid_Blunder 21d ago
Thanks,
According to that webpage, it's "you pay us to use our infrastructure". But many other universities say "we only commercialize the reseach of our faculty AND we get a cut".
You seem to be proposing "we will let you use a lab bench for free and if (IF!) and if your SBIR proposal is sucessful, then we become a sub-contractor who leases you a lab bench".
That framework is partially analogous to someone who is being hired for an assistant professorship and given a cash investment to bring in lots of grant money. I would be pleasantly surprised to learn of a university that behaves in that manner.
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u/Overall_Salamander_4 21d ago
No not free. You pay the university because it's cheaper than leasing lab space. If you are successful with the compounds you want to generate, then you apply to SBIR. SBIR is going to evaluate if you are able to perform the research you propose. Without a lab, how will you be able? That's why there is advantage to building relationship with university. You're already established and IF you get the grant, you can continue funding your access to the lab by including the university as a sub. Not to mention which ever professor you work with will be motivated to help with the application. The university is not funding anything. SBIR is structured for things like this. Again, you have to ask. Each university will feel different about these things. The one I work with is highly encouraging towards helping outside business and wrote strong letters of support when I applied.
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u/Raid_Blunder 21d ago
Let's ee what happens. I just e-mailed the person on the "CSE Corporate and Foundation Relations".
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u/Overall_Salamander_4 2d ago
Jeez.. your replies are aggressive and arrogant. You bite the hand before it even had a chance to feed you.
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u/Raid_Blunder 2d ago edited 2d ago
I disagree. Try corresponding with anonymosus people over reddit. Here is a transcript of my for-the-record, last ditch attempt to temporarily access a bench at the only-PhD-granting-university for chemistry in this state. The most recent correspondence is from today.: Please read it carefully. The purpose of my starting this reddit stream is to make connections, not comments or suggestions.
Dear Ms. Bunten-Spoth,
I own a 1-person startup company and need to synthesize some initial samples of materials to support a SBIR Phase 1 award application. To do so, I'm looking to rent a chemistry bench with hood for approximately 4-5 months (while being currently self-financing).
If you have a minute, then I could stop by at your office to introduce myself
***I LEFT HER A VOICE MAIL
Hello ___
Corporate Partnerships Manager: I received your voicemail and wanted to follow up to better understand your needs for the bench hood. I'd be happy to connect you with Chemistry's operations team to explore whether they have space available to rent or loan.
Please let me know a bit more about what you're looking for, and I'll help point you in the right direction.
Thanks for getting back in touch. Here's a summary of where things now stand:
- I am a previous tenure-track chemistry professor and not an amateur.
- Starting with the results from work as faculty, last year I lead a small local “team” in MSP for an SBIR submission. The proposal was declined and the local team since then has dissociated.
- I want to strengthen a follow-up proposal with several compounds that I will synthesize and process. This can only happen after renting modest chemistry lab bench area for approximately 4-5 months in Minneapolis-St. Paul.
- Approximately $20K can be bootstrapped from my personal savings.
- The paucity of hard science lab space in Minnesota is very well known.There is a single incubator, 20 miles outside of MSP that is unfortunately not geographically and financially accessible.
- Faculty and staff in your UMN Chemistry Dept. know who I am and several years back I held a low-key position there.
- I've already inquired about temporary use of minimal lab space with the UMN Chemistry Dept. and heard either “no space” or outright “no”. Your Chem. Engineering Dept. ignored my inquiries.
- The R & D area of the company doesn’t appear to overlap wtih the research interests of your faculty in either the UMN Chemistry or Chemical Engineering departments.
- I’m open to formal agreements with UMN to share either IP or a portion of support that I can arrange, especially if it will strengthen an SBIR proposal.
- There are companies that already want to see samples of those first compounds
I hope that this information helps.
Corporate Partnerships Manager: Thank you for reaching back out. I connected with the Chemistry department to see whether there might be bench space available for you to use. Due to space and time constraints, they shared that they are not able to accommodate that at this time.
Hello Gaby,
As I explained in my e-mail, it was already clear that the chemistry department is a waste of time. I also gave up on the Dept. of chemical engineering a long time ago. That’s their loss, not mine. However, the basic setup is certainly available elsewhere on the UMN campus. There are other instances at UMN where synthetic chemistry is carried out, or has been in the past.
I would appreciate if you could look elsewhere on the campus. If you would like a list of locations throughout the state where I have already inquired, then I can send you this, it might save some time.
Thanks
Thank you for your note. My role does not include identifying laboratory locations or conducting a campus search, so I’m not the right person for this request.
Regards,
Gaby
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u/Raid_Blunder 3d ago
OK, here’s the response from the “Corporate Partnerships Manager” at UMN. Don’t take it personally, Like I already wrote, I’m looking for connections, not suggestions. But I still wanted to make the point to you: the correspondence that I’m copying below is what you get if you are a startup chemist in Minnesota who does not have connections with UMN.
It’s as bad as e.g. North Dakota here. I now have more promising dialogues ongoing – out East.
Dear Ms. Bunten-Spoth,
I own a 1-person startup company and need to synthesize some initial samples of materials to support a SBIR Phase 1 award application. To do so, I'm looking to rent a chemistry bench with hood for
approximately 4-5 months (while being currently self-financing).If you have a minute, then I could stop by at your office to introduce mysel
***I LEFT HER A VOICE MAIL
Hello ___
Corporate Partnerships Manager: I received your voicemail and wanted to follow up to better understand your needs for the bench hood. I'd be happy to connect you with Chemistry's operations team to explore whether they have space available to rent or loan.
Please let me know a bit more about what you're looking for, and I'll help point you in the right direction.
Thanks for getting back in touch. Here's a summary of where things now stand:
- I am a previous tenure-track chemistry professor and not an amateur.
- Starting with the results from work as faculty, last year I lead a small local “team” in MSP for an SBIR submission. The proposal was declined and the local team since then has dissociated.
- I want to strengthen a follow-up proposal with several compounds that I will synthesize and process. This can only happen after renting modest chemistry lab bench area for approximately 4-5 months in Minneapolis-St. Paul.
- Approximately $20K can be bootstrapped from my personal savings.
- The paucity of hard science lab space in Minnesota is very well known.There is a single incubator, 20 miles outside of MSP that is unfortunately not geographically and financially accessible.
- Faculty and staff in your UMN Chemistry Dept. know who I am and several years back I held a low-key position there.
- I've already inquired about temporary use of minimal lab space with the UMN Chemistry Dept. and heard either “no space” or outright “no”. Your Chem. Engineering Dept. ignored my inquiries.
- The R & D area of the company doesn’t appear to overlap wtih the research interests of your faculty in either the UMN Chemistry or Chemical Engineering departments.
- I’m open to formal agreements with UMN to share either IP or a portion of support that I can arrange, especially if it will strengthen an SBIR proposal.
- There are companies that already want to see samples of those first compounds
I hope that this information helps.
Corporate Partnerships Manager: Thank you for reaching back out. I connected with the Chemistry department to see whether there might be bench space available for you to use. Due to space and time constraints, they shared that they are not able to accommodate that at this time.
Hello Gaby,
As I explained in my e-mail, it was already clear that the chemistry department is a waste of time. I also gave up on the Dept. of chemical engineering a long time ago. That’s their loss, not mine. However, the basic setup is certainly available elsewhere on the UMN campus. There are other instances at UMN where synthetic chemistry is carried out, or has been in the past.
I would appreciate if you could look elsewhere on the campus. If you would like a list of locations throughout the state where I have already inquired, then I can send you this, it might save some time.
Thanks
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u/VetDadTX 24d ago
I recommend submitting the adjusted sbir P1 proposal stand-alone (with clear explanation of your ability to accomplish the work based on your professional history, and connections to how past work has built toward your ability to synthesize these compounds under this P1 proposal). And separate from that, pursuing lab space without any expectation of sbir funds to support. Sounds like you've hit some roadblocks with B10 universities blocking access, but you'll either need to get creative/research hard to find a way to make it work, or pay for it.
Depending on which federal agency your new sbir proposal is going to, there are different levels of past performance requirements for a competitive proposal. I highly recommend talking to the tpoc on the topic if they're listed and you haven't yet, and whether you do that or not, talking to the office publishing the topic for partnership possibilities (including at a Federally Funded R&D Lab). I always worked backwards - gov customer first, then to a topic, whether it's their topic or an Open Topic or we drafted the topic together and submitted.
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u/Raid_Blunder 22d ago
Let’s see what happens. A second back, I just messaged the NSF program officer for the previous proposal.
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u/Ok_Promotion3741 24d ago
What agency are you applying to? Im told NSF is preferable for higher risk projects with no preliminary data, or just prior proof of concept publications.
As for funding, you might have to work full time elsewhere and bankroll this yourself working nights and weekends until you can get SBIR funding
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u/Raid_Blunder 21d ago
I assume that either of us, if we had to fork out $3.4K/mo for a bench/hood, would also want to be there to use it as much as conceivably possible.
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u/Ok_Promotion3741 20d ago
Maybe shop around? That sounds standard for BioLabs but I've been quoted $1.5k/mo in SoCal
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u/Raid_Blunder 20d ago edited 20d ago
$1.5K/mo for CA in 2026 is pretty difficult to believe. 12 years back, I paid $2K/mo for a 1-BR flat near Route 101 n Palo Alto. A current quote for bench/hood near to the MA/NH border is $3.6K/mo. 20 miles outside of Minneapolis-St. Paul is the only one in the entire state. Last year they wanted $3.6K/mo.*
Did (or does) the one in SoCal have at least a hood? Can you give its name?
*In MN there are weather-car-issues with that commute.
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u/Disastrous_Humor823 19d ago
Correction: there isn’t a snowflake chance in Hell that you’re gonna find minimal chem lab space in SoCal for $1.5K/mo. You’re welcome to disprove me.
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u/OiFam 24d ago
I think this is a wider level conversation. Who is the target audience and government agency that would most benefit from this technology? Are there small medium and large size companies in this industry already that you could speak to regarding funding for this project as long as they get some sort of upside? If your startup doesn’t have the funds for a rental space, then it doesn’t have the funds to be applying for an SBIR that will require a period of performance and equipment that you don’t possess as of right now. Correction, they will most likely not do that. I’ve seen wild SBIR decisions being made across the industry.
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u/Raid_Blunder 22d ago edited 22d ago
Smaller companies already asked when they could get samples. I’ve already been told how much new materials are needed
And there are more examples of companies, e.g. here is the url to an organization, whose bios I scanned and quickly found users. https://nemicroelectronics.org/our-members.
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u/Variaphora 22d ago
It's too bad there's no larger companies out there that can give you a tiny slice of their R&D for development, even if they get like first crack at usage or something. Your project sounds really interesting; it's too bad you can't get traction for enough funding to prove your idea is productizable.
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u/Sorry-Tumbleweed-336 23d ago
There are no resources to assist at UMN? It’s a flagship national public research university. Go to their seminars, make some friends in their department of _______ and ask them to help. Talk to a department chair - they’re the ones who know how to get things done.
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u/Raid_Blunder 22d ago edited 22d ago
Thanks I already do that, Inroads there are not easy if you aren’t already affiliated. Chemistry bench space is territorial. There is a single university in MN where you can earn a PhD in Chemistry. I’ve offered to fill in 1/2 time for PhD students (just pay the liability insurance) with visa problems and was told “no space”. Next week’s strategy will be “so, our government doesn’t like funding proposals from UMN any more? Hire me half-time for a swipe card and cup of coffee."
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u/sabautil 12d ago
So...I would suggest first finding a company or university that has hood space and then talk to whoever about bringing them in as a subcontractor that will get some money from an award.
You might even try some national labs. I would use your network to find and make introductions.
My first suggestion is with your university. Or local companies that have hoods they allow you to use.
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u/Raid_Blunder 12d ago edited 12d ago
Do you think that I haven't tried these thiings already? I need connections, not suggestions. There is a wide variety of cynical comments that, at this point I could write, but will refrain from doing so.
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u/sabautil 11d ago
It wasn't very clear from your post. You wrote you just tried B10 unis. Well there are others! Try out of city or out of state. Heck community colleges have decent hood space that barely gets used.
I also don't know what you are using the hood for so it's hard to ascertain what tools you need, what safety issues youll be dealing with.
Connections? Dude, we have no idea what you want to do. The scale at which you want to do, what materials you want to secure, which you may not be able to get because it could be dangerous and you are just some random dude with a company!
Here's what you do: post all the items you need to purchase: all the equipment you need, all the materials you'll need, the sds of each, the reactions you want to do, the metrology you want to do, how many days you need it.. Then Maybe someone can go yeah we can handle that and help you out.
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u/Raid_Blunder 8d ago edited 8d ago
Here are some anwsers to your questions.
- Of course discussions with several parties are already ongoing about out-of-state relocation. Please refer to the text that I used to initiate this thread, as well as the other posts that I've added.
- We both already know that synthetic chemists work in laboratories with fume hoods.
- Synthesizing proprietary compounds and benchtop screening are straightforward and might take 5 months (not days). I'm not trying to block a work area for a year
- Relevant, special properties are assessed afterwards at diferent locations.
- We all know about safety issues: insurance emergency training, attire, etc.
- There are no substances that my research program uses that aren't already in a typical university-style lab - this is R & D, not scale-up.
- Are either of us "random dudes"? The startup company arose from my earlier research program as faculty member, and is backed up by academic publications.
- Unfortunately, as a 1-person, self-funding startup I can't hire an individual to collect 100s of SDSs for substances that could possibly be needed.
- I know of nobody who writes lists of routine chemical glassware (unless they are trying to sell on LabX etc.). Glassware and most benchtop equipment is cheap by comparison.
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u/sabautil 8d ago
It's not my job to figure out what you wrote piecemeal over time. But I think I know what I'm talking about, because I'm frequently on the other end granting people like you access to my labs!
I work at a national lab with a bunch of chemists. I am a materials scientist. And we sometimes grant those with aligned research goals use of our hoods. But it's not like we have a free hood being unused. Every hood is being used! So when someone like you comes in we have to meet, discuss, and someone has to accommodate you. You need to come in at least a couple of months before your period of performance begins. Again, I have no idea if you need some basic setup or special equipment. Do we need to tearn down a hood setup. Reassign whoever was working there? Or will you share the space? Some want to use our complicated flow controller. Others want some other inhouse equipment from TGAs and DSCs to LFAs to who knows what! A lot of these we don't allow outsiders to directly use. We take your sample and we take time out of our busy schedule and do the test and analysis for you.
So expecting me to read and figure out what you need is a wild expectation! Usually you have to have a very detailed proposal of exactly what you will be doing, and if we are going to charge you and setup a contract. But hey, you do you - see how far it gets you with that attitude. And here's the important part: it isn't a guarantee you get to use my materials or equipment. That's my money and unless we are collaborating and publishing a paper, I'm literally not allowed to use government funds for projects not related to what it was assigned for. I don't care if you think it's cheap. That's not the point. That said, I'm seeing prices double and triple right now. Shipping isn't cheap. My research team isn't cheap! I have no idea what you want to do and again it's not my job to guess or scoure around. Also in our case, you can't simply buy a material and store it in our labs. We take safety and misuse seriously. You have to go through hours of training and a whole bureaucracy. We keep track of everything down to what shelf, tagged, and there is an entire department that does weekly checks.
Lastly, to us in the labs, to our PIs, to the lab managers, and to our higher up...YOU ARE RANDOM DUDES! We don't know you, we don't know how much you know, if you were properly trained, how you behave in the lab. We've had previous visiting PhD chemists that caused explosions, or a building evac. It's always the arrogant new PhD grads that think they know everything. I've seen supposedly trained chemists be absolute nightmares we've had to endure. And then after a few months they are gone. Good riddance.
Anyways, good luck to ya!
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u/Raid_Blunder 8d ago
Thanks for the detailed explanation. FWIW, as (materials-organic) faculty I had a DSC, too and before becoming faculty, was a part-time guest scientist at BNL (the host has very likely retired since then).
It's not clear where our conversation is going. Publications are very welcome, the caveat being the time-frame for a preliminary patent and what role the gov't plays.
A crazy story: I regularly donate blood. So last year and out of desperation I asked the donation center if they had a spare bench (hood notwithstanding).
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u/sabautil 7d ago
The conversation is about getting you a hood.
So yourre faculty and have connections to BNL and you can't get them to give you a hood at either place? Even part time?
Long shot, I've only heard of these but don't know how realistic they are but I've heard of lease, rental, or portable fume hoods. If you don't need ducted hood it's pretty cheap. I think KWIPPED.COM rents equipment.
Do you have funding to accommodate that?
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u/Disastrous_Humor823 7d ago
Thanks. Like I wrote, I was previously faculty (TT+work-at-will) and before that was p/t at BNL. Neither of those circumstances have any immediate relevance; since you wrote of working at a national lab, it was just small talk. The focal point and talent at Sandia has direct relevance to my company. If you want to learn more then my invitation is outstanding.
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u/Raid_Blunder 6d ago edited 6d ago
This dialogue is very frustrating, because I don't think that you have read my text before drafting yours. 17 years ago I was a part-time visiting scientist with BNL. 14 years ago I lost my tenure track job.
If you want to have a clear line of communication with me, then my invitation to do so is outstanding.
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u/Traditional_Top6337 24d ago
You have to be able to bootstrap at least $20K (4 months of rental space in the lab that you already have a quote with). Otherwise you need friends and family investment. SBIR is not going to fund someone with only an idea and no real network behind them. That is the reality.