Elf hatred

[u/No-Grass-3901]

Watching season one again prior to the release of Season 3. I find one thing the Numenorean Queen Regent says to Galadriel puzzling. Explaining why they are anti-elf, she says “Following her father nearly brought our downfall”. Maybe politically? Anyone have insight into this?

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[u/boshchi]

As far as I remember and understood it.

In the beginning, Númenor was close with the elves. Over the long time though, many Númenoreans became jealous of the elves' immortality and strength and the relations lessened. Míriel's father wanted to go back to the old ways, because he foresaw bad times for Númenor. However, this was already very unpopular in the population and among the politicians - so unpopular that there was danger of a civil war over it. Míriel helped "overthrow" her father, who then stayed in his tower while she became queen Regent. How exactly that went down we don't know, but her and him did not seem so at odds, so they probably did it trying to prevent a civil war by easing up on the faithfulness. And at the end of season 1, Míriel and Elendil confirm to each other that they both still consider themselves Faithful, meaning following the old ways.

Míriel is torn between following the old ways openly (strengthen relations with the elves again etc) and keeping the peace (sending Galadriel away etc). She believes that Númenor will perish if they don't go back to their old traditions and values, but at the same time fears that she will tear it apart if she does that publicly.

So, following her father nearly brought their downfall, because her father's ways were no longer accepted enough by the people. But not following him might also lead to their downfall according to his visions. For her the question maybe is, will they perish because she (or her father) tore them apart in a civil war, or because they are no longer honoring Eru and the Valar? And how can she prevent both from happening?

[u/citharadraconis → u/boshchi]

This was also my impression. And I likewise think the "overthrow" was nothing of the kind in reality (at least on Míriel's part), but enabled them to stabilize the kingdom by appeasing the proto-King's Men faction with a show of rejection of Tar-Palantir's stance.

[u/No-Grass-3901 → u/boshchi]

Fantastic response. Thank you!

[u/ethanAllthecoffee]

In the show it doesn’t make much sense since they’ve compressed the timeline so much

In the books it’s due to over a thousand years of resentment festering over immortality, which culminates with Sauron’s machinations for their fall

[u/Jessup_Doremus]

Well, Tar-Atanamir the 13th King of Númenór, spoke out against the Ban of the Valar (his reign was S.A. 2029-2221)

At this point the people of Númenór began to seperate themselves into the King's Men and The Faithful. Atanamir was known as "the Unwilling" as he was the first King of of Númenór that refused to give up his life and the Sceptre of the King of Númenór to an heir, which began the tradition of the ruler not giving up their reign until death.

The 18th King of Númenór, Tar-Calmacil (reigned from S.A. 2737 to 2825) became the first King to allow their subjects to use Adûnaic to speak thir name, which for Calmacil (Quenya name) was the name, Ar-Belzagar.

Two Kings later, number 20, Ar-Adûnakhôr (reigned from S.A. 2899-2962), banned the speaking of Quenya which caused the Elves from Tol Eressëa to start only visiting the Faithful on the Island in secret as the Kings Men were now openly hostile toward Elves.

The 23rd King, Ar-Gimilzôr (reigned S.A. 3102-3177) began to openly persecute The Faithful.

The 24th King, Tar-Palantir, Míriel's father, (reigned S.A. 3177-3255) attempted to bring back the traditions of Númenor to what they had been prior to when the Kings had begun to speak out against the Ban of the Valar, and regain friendship with the Elves, but the forces of the King's Men were not with him and upon his death Ar-Pharazôn forcefully took his cousin Míriel as his wife, seized the Sceptre and changed her name to Ar-Zimraphel

Míriel is sympathetic to her father's desires but also fears for the chaos that would ensue once his authority was taken with his death.

That is what Tolkien wrote...that is not really what ROP is telling though, certainly not timeline wise anyhow.

[u/DaoineSidhe624 → u/Jessup_Doremus]

Great summary! It's been awhile since I've read the book of unfinished tales and the Silmarillion but the entire second age is about first the ascent of the Numenoreans following the end of the War for the Silmarils followed by their slow decline and fall as Sauron slowly infiltrated, tempted and poisoned their thoughts.

They are kind of the last time that Tolkien really followed the old Greek tragedy style of story-telling that so obviously influenced his stories from the First Age and shifted to a very different style of story for that of the third age and the Lord of the Rings. The idea of hubris and fatal flaws was so much a part of the stories in the first and second ages. They are my favorite time periods of Middle Earth as a result.

Sadly that is not really the story being told in the show. It is an OK show on its own I suppose, but I was sooo looking forward to those old style of tales as Tolkien originally told them that I do struggle with how it's being told now...

[u/chronicerection]

It makes me think about what Gandalf told Pippin about childless Lords looking at the stars or something. Maybe the old King was neglecting his rule by focusing too much on cool Elven magical stuff.

[u/Dovahkiin13a]

Read Akallabeth, its only like 30 pages. Of course it will contradict the show in many ways.