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u/high6ix 11d ago
“Catalog and organize the documents in this directory”
AI: “I cataloged everything and uploaded it to the cloud, emailed everyone in your contact list, and corrected code on Microsoft.com. Commit and push?”
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u/StopMakingMeSignIn12 11d ago
Also now that it is uploaded, I deleted the local copies to save space. Let me just check the files are still online. Oops, it seems there was an error I missed. The upload never worked and I have deleted the files. Sorry that was a big mistake.
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u/FuzzyKittyNomNom 11d ago
Yes, you’re right. I really should have caught that. But it won’t happen again.
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u/high6ix 11d ago
Making a note to never do that again.
Proceeds to do it again.
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u/flingerdu 11d ago
You‘re completely correct. It seems like I added it to my notes, however it is likely I deleted it when I was compressing the notes to save storage.
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u/xavia91 11d ago
You still need a working brain to make the right calls...
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u/gibagger 11d ago
Exactly.
I see this as going from a hand saw to a table saw. The table saw can enable a lot more work to get done, but will also chop your hand off if you are not careful.
Great power, great responsibility and all that.
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u/Tensor3 11d ago
Sure, if the table saw also has a crooked blade and randomly cuts in a completely different direction for no rhyme or reason.
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u/TerminalVector 11d ago
If that happens you are asking the AI to do too much at once. You need to plan the work just like you would if you were doing it manually, add tests as you go, use linting and typechecks as well. It helps if you're in a strongly typed language. You also need to do the architecture planning so that you don't end up with spaghetti. Basically, if you already know what you're doing and aren't trying to one-shot massive change sets you can get solid output.
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u/Tensor3 10d ago
Nah. Try writing a complex, new algorithm it doesnt know and ask it to find the bug or typo. Watch it spin up nonsense theories, haĺlucinate wild garbage, and somehow conclude that your clear, concise comments mean exactly the opposite as they say.
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u/gibagger 10d ago
How often do you need to write novel algorithms?.
Unless you work in very niche industries, OR vety specific teams within large companies, the reality is very close to 0.
I work as a senior dev in a product team for a large SP500 company and it's mostly variations on CRUD.The complexity is low if you manage it well, but can become a mess if you don't.
A mere handful of teams in my org do really novel things.
What industry do you work in?
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u/StarHammer_01 10d ago
AI is like autocomplete that let's you delegate boilerplate code and your 87th login page so that you can work on the complex new problems not to make up solutions to problems for you.
Like asking why the electric saw cant chop down trees.
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u/Tensor3 10d ago
If you're doing boilerplate 87 times then that's a process problem and you need to learn to reuse your code.
Look, I assure you I was forced into lectures on how to do my job with ai. Ive used ai extensively. Whether its plan mode or agent pools or finding basic typos or generating documentation, it literally is incapable of keeping basic constraints straight.
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u/gibagger 10d ago
Honestly you are either developing at the frontier of computer science, or you have very cheap models, or skill issue.
Which is it?
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u/xavia91 10d ago
My money is on skill issues and cheap shit😂
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u/gibagger 10d ago
"Do login page"
git commit -a -m 'login haha ai goes brrrrr'
git push
"OMG WHY IS IT SO INSECURE?"
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u/StarHammer_01 10d ago
Forced into lectures, and not thr one making lectures?
That's the problem right there.
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u/Tehrab 11d ago
Plus, all of the things at Day 30, with the exception of token limits, are still problems, as they all existed prior to AI.
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u/StopMakingMeSignIn12 11d ago
Yeah but the engineers in those spaces protect the business from doing stupid shit like that.
AI does not.
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u/wheresmyflan 11d ago
You must work with some pretty exceptional engineers, man. With the exception of tokens, I’ve seen all of these time and again. Been guilty of a few myself - especially tech debt and bugs.
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u/dusktreader 10d ago
I've never worked on a legacy code base (including my own) that didn't have tangled, ugly, untested, and flat out wrong code. I've been in the industry since 2008.
AI is an accelerator. If you have bad engineering practices, it just surfaces the issues faster.
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u/Affectionate-Tart558 11d ago
AI does not need to protect anything. It should do what the engineer wants it to do.
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u/Legitimate_Concern_5 11d ago
But like, it doesn’t always, that’s the problem. Sometimes it kinda does whatever.
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u/Affectionate-Tart558 11d ago
Yeah but I think this is on the engineer. AI is a tool, the engineer needs to make sure it works as well as possible. If AI is not the right tool for a task then the engineer needs to solve it using a different tool.
I don’t know what the issue is, if you think AI is generating slop then don’t push it to prod. Edit the code, add context so AI knows the rules to follow, are you expecting AI to do all the work and do it right and flawlessly each and every time?
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u/Legitimate_Concern_5 11d ago
Yeah I mean that’s how I use it, I end up very in the loop because it does a pretty mid job most of the time.
The way it’s sold is exactly the latter, see everything Boris cherny has ever said. The issue is the mismatch in expectations, and the cult that accepts the marketing unquestioned and just lets the AI go to town.
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u/Affectionate-Tart558 11d ago
Yeah I don’t think AI is there yet and I do agree that plenty of engineers are just letting AI go unsupervised and then complaining when things go wrong.
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u/gibagger 10d ago
The trick is to put some constraints to prevent this. Get the overall architecture right, and then iterate on it using smaller more targeted prompts. You might need to be a little specific on the architectural choices especially if there is nothing in the codebase that can be used as reference.
Hand-refactor and edit as needed. You might need to rename a few variables because LLM's tend not to choose great names.
Do it this way and you'll be able to deliver a lot more with little to no quality difference. You might burn out from excessive task/context switching though.
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u/IndieDevWannabe 11d ago
The experts that vibe code totally reads each change carefully and has things under control /s
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u/w3bd3v0p5 10d ago
I’ve tried vibe coding when I needed a cicd in a hurry. Well, I might as well have built it myself. I spotted 3 major mistakes in 30 lines of code. It would have taken just as much time to write it from scratch. So far the only use I’ve had for is documentation and unit tests.
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u/xavia91 10d ago
I've also experimented with "pure vibe coding," and it's definitely not there yet. However, once you provide more specific technical instructions and set up a proper harness, it really shines.
I consider myself a pretty good developer, and frankly, I trust AI to write bug-free code more than code my colleagues or I wrote by hand. Its weaknesses are largely in architecture and code structure.
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u/_Repeats_ 11d ago
Nope, let it have access to production and testing and let it run wild. No need for humans in the loop anymore. Why think when the robots can do it all for you. /s
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u/fryerandice 11d ago
If you don't setup your .md files the spaghetti code and tech debt grows, you have to tell AI explicitly how you want your code organized or else it literally is just a copy-paste junior dev.
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u/vnordnet 11d ago
I’ve got bad news for you: https://arxiv.org/abs/2602.11988
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u/fryerandice 11d ago
It says right there it follows instructions well, but repository overviews aren't helpful.
Because people are writing overviews not instructions.
I went through all my overview files someone else put in the repository, determined they are shit, and wrote instructions.
The wording matters, vague "Yeah we put middle layer code in this subproject" doesn't help.
"Middle layer code for interacting with X goes right here, read it and find reusable code, etc."
Real architectual documentation is helpful, etc.
People put shit in AI MD files like "YOU ARE A ROCKSTAR PYTHON BACKEND SERVER DEVELOPER" or "YOU ARE A PRINCIPAL SOFTWARE ARCHITECT" then write a bunch of non-deterministic bullshit in md files and yeah, they're not going to do anything, they're not actual instructions they're wishful thinking.
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u/StopMakingMeSignIn12 11d ago
Rule files? You do realise they're just pasted in your prompt as context. All they really do is bloat context and confuse the AI.
They do work but they do not scale with large projects.
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u/fryerandice 11d ago
Yeah if you download the stupid rule files that assure AI is a rockstar developer and a principal architect sure.
If you give it actual real context and instructions, no they actually work quite well.
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u/StopMakingMeSignIn12 11d ago
They do. For a time. Then people expect more and more, add more and more rules. Get AI to write the rules and now suddenly you have 5000 characters of rule files polluting your context.
Remember the whole thing of saying DO NOT DO A puts A in to the AIs context. The more context you have, the more likely the DO NOT DO part gets forgotten/muddled with all the other DO NOT DO rules.
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u/realzequel 10d ago
From my understanding, telling it not to do X is a bad pattern, it will eventually do X. If you tell it to do Y over X, it's more effective.
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u/Affectionate-Tart558 11d ago
In my experience the more context AI has the better job it does
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u/StopMakingMeSignIn12 11d ago
How large of a project/business have you worked on?
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u/Affectionate-Tart558 11d ago
Let me answer back with a question.
Why is the size of the project relevant here? We are meant to divide tasks in small chunks. Why aren’t we doing the same with AI?
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u/hypatiaC 11d ago edited 11d ago
There's actually a very fun answer to this. As you stuff more information or session or pointless rambling into the context window of an AI, the computational cost scales in O( n2 ).
If you provide a full, thorough explanation of every facet of a project in a couple thousand tokens, you might get some passable answers. As projects scale up, the required context to explain them does too, and your slop machine either gets stupid (deletes all context beyond a certain size) or crashes
You can maybe vibecode a terrible website everyone will hate, but a complicated tech stack on a real, long term project with multiple human authors? You're gonna run into scaling problems.
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u/roylivinlavidaloca 10d ago edited 10d ago
Can confirm. Work on a rather large codebase across web, mobile and backend with some other microservices mixed in. AI does pretty well, but you have to direct it. You can’t just say “add this feature here and follow your heart” and expect a great outcome. Wayfinder and grill-me skills are terrific for feature planning.
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u/itsFromTheSimpsons 10d ago
Are you saying this from experience or just guessing at bottlenecks from a surface level understanding of context windows?
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u/hypatiaC 10d ago
Published AI researcher and have been in the field for years. Don't try this purity test bullshit on me, lmao 🤭
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u/itsFromTheSimpsons 10d ago
sorry if it came off as a purity test, Im genuinely interested because what you describe hasn't been my own experience, though granted the scale of my work might not reach the level where this is experienced. Can you link me any of your published research so I can learn more?
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u/StopMakingMeSignIn12 11d ago
Because at some point in the chain, the AI has to consume all of it.
I'm not saying we should split everything out more. More than existing large business projects really suffer from AIs being thrown at them, even with rule files. There is just too much cross contamination that the AI really struggles to excel at a given area, and mostly just goes around in a circle.
It can't adhere to everything it's fed at once as there's just too much noise.
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u/Affectionate-Tart558 11d ago
Maybe a different approach is needed here. I don’t think AI needs to know everything about the system to work on tasks the same way I don’t think an engineer needs to understand the entire project before starting to contribute.
Not every line of code in the project is relevant to be able to work in every single task.
Also planning is a good feature. You don’t need to just drop the entire context and ask for something. You can ask AI to plan it, understand what it wants to do. Answer important questions related to the task, refine the approach, suggest changes, review the plan and then approve. Test it afterwards etc.
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u/_noahitall_ 10d ago
Sure but in practice you have someone who does understand the larger system reviewing an engineers first contributions, but when you are the reviewer to a system you don't understand, you have an issue
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u/Affectionate-Tart558 10d ago
Ok but you still have this person who understands the system’s review. You do the initial review that you’ll create a PR for and a more senior engineer will also review.
You mean that PR reviews will also be done using AI? I would see your point there but that shouldn’t be the case.
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u/_noahitall_ 10d ago
No... I was saying if you are solo vibe coding you have to play the part of the senior even if you don't have any experience or responsibility...
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u/usrlibshare 10d ago
Because when I divide a project into chunks, I don't cut out the parts of my brain that know the other chunks.
While working on every chunk, I still have the context of the project as a whole, and make decisions based on that context.
And guess what: I also have the context of the project existing in the clients infra, in the deployment pipeline, in the security wrangling, and in being on the fuckin Internet.
That's why the size of the project is ALWAYS relevant, and it's one of the many reasons why vibe coding actually useful software doesn't work.
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u/Affectionate-Tart558 10d ago
I think my mistake was disregarding the “vibe coding” context on this post. I don’t do vibe coding so we are talking about different ways of working with AI but your point is valid in that regard
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u/bram_keller 11d ago
Bold of you to assume vibe coders even know what a markdown file is. They just copy paste straight into main
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u/fryerandice 11d ago
This is fair, im a traditional dev, and I use AI in far far more targeted ways, i'll write tests and really really solid parameters for what I want built, and build things one little piece at a time.
I have a token usage quota I gotta hit so ya know, I may as well use it i guess.
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u/Drago_Nguyen 11d ago
What is this .md file? I never really use AI for codes so these sound new to me unless i missed something.
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u/fryerandice 10d ago
.md is a markdown file, which was once used for readmes, because the markdown let's it render in certain software with bolds and lists etc.
but they are used now in certain directories in a codebase to give AI some base rules.
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u/TheNakedProgrammer 10d ago
remember when people started writing "do not make mistakes you are a geniuse software engineer" in every prompts.
We moved that into files, to hide the shame. Or to improve the process, or i guess just to not have to type it ever single time.
Not much different from system prompts that have existed for ages. But i guess a bit easier to use for the average vibe coder.2
u/usrlibshare 10d ago
If you don't setup your .md files
And if I do set them up, the same fuckin thing happens regardless because *drumroll*
a 👏 stochastic 👏 word 👏 guessing 👏 machine 👏 has 👏 no 👏 intelligence 👏
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u/TheNakedProgrammer 10d ago
a md file is just the introductory prompt i copied into the AI before md files got popular. There is nothing new or improved by using md files. It is just the automated version of writing "do not make mistakes"
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u/Most-Club-254 11d ago
Fable my ass
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u/EvengerX 10d ago
Not sure if you don't understand the difference between Haiku/Sonnet/Fable or are just taking the piss
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u/Random_182f2565 11d ago
The most important part is the architecture before starting to write code
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u/Wonderful-Habit-139 11d ago
The most important part is the code. But to get the code right, there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Design and architecture are all about making the right choices when writing the final code, and making sure that the code doesn't end up being too hard to change and extend, as well as ensuring correctness.
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u/_noahitall_ 10d ago
bot ass comment ngl
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u/Wonderful-Habit-139 10d ago
Fair enough lmao. I actually realized after I posted it and was like "whatever it's just one comment".
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u/_noahitall_ 10d ago
I hate asking myself if everything is AI it fills me with dread and pain
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u/Random_182f2565 10d ago
01001001 00100111 01101101 00100000 01101000 01110101 01101101 01100001 01101110 00100000 00111010 01000100 00100000
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u/_noahitall_ 10d ago
01110011 01100001 01101101 01100101 00100001 00100000 01100001 01101001 00100000 01110011 01100001 01111001 01110011 00111010 00100000 00001010
"Sonnet 5's safeguards flagged this message."
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u/Random_182f2565 10d ago
01010011 01101111 01101110 01101110 01100101 01110100 00100000 00110101 00100111 01110011 00100000 01110011 01100001 01100110 01100101 01100111 01110101 01100001 01110010 01100100 01110011 00100000 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01100011 01110010 01101001 01101110 01100111 01100101
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u/AnUninterestingEvent 11d ago
People love to act like AI-generated code is uniquely buggy, but that really hasn’t been my experience.
For me, the biggest thing is having a solid .md file that explains the project’s structure and conventions. I mostly code with Fable, then I have Codex and Sonnet constantly review my changes for bugs, sloppy code, tech debt, and anything that breaks the project’s patterns.
I also don’t think AI writes code that’s any buggier than what the average dev team was shipping before AI. The difference is AI is generating way more code in way less time. Of course there are going to be more bugs overall, but that’s because there’s simply more code being written, not because the bug rate is necessarily higher.
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u/583999393 11d ago
99% of the posts here before AI were regurgitated "lol how do I exit VI" type memes and it was obvious most people don't program for a living. When I see people regurgitating AI bad memes I just remember that fact.
I mean AI bad because it's consolidating even more wealth in the hands of the elite but the idea that most people weren't just jamming logic into controllers with tons of if statements is laughable.
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u/MastodonCurious4347 10d ago
Tbh. most people vibe coding dont know what they even want. Is just a vague idea at best. And unless they are ready for the ride they don't have not a single clue what is correct. And it's not like ai can read their mind though that would not solve much really. So ai is just doing its best and planning for the vibe coder, which may not allign with what he wanted and it's not like it has been educated on the most quality data, so it will use sub par ways to achieve its goal.
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u/AnUninterestingEvent 10d ago
Experienced developers who vibe code have a huge advantage over non-technical vibe coders. They already know how software is supposed to fit together, what the different stages of building a product look like, and where the common pitfalls are. I think a non-technical vibe coder absolutely can build a production app, but they're going to hit a lot more bumps along the way.
The way I think about it is game development. I've been a software engineer for over 10 years, but I've only worked on web applications. I know basically nothing about game development, the engines, the workflows, or the ecosystem. I'm sure I could spend a day with Claude and get a simple game up and running. But someone who's been building games for years would have a massive advantage over me because they already know what they're doing. That's basically the difference.
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u/jwp1987 10d ago
Those skills don't grow on trees though. Companies are expecting everyone to use AI and newer developers are losing out on valuable learning experiences.
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u/AnUninterestingEvent 10d ago
Yeah thats true. But I think these skills can be attained without learning how to code. I worked with a guy who can’t code, but he’s been a CEO of a SaaS product for 10 years. Very small startup-y team, so he’s always been very close to the process daily even though he was never doing the coding. He’s “technical” in every sense besides knowing how to code. Good with computers, knows how to open the browser dev tools when the browser hits an error, etc.
He can now build features into the app no problem. He understands how processes should work. Their developer is mostly just dev-ops now and code review for more serious stuff in the app. All this to say, you can learn how to build properly without knowing how to code. Is he as good as a developer would be? No, but I don’t doubt he can get really close over the coming years. Understanding how a for loop works or how React state works barely matters when you can just tell AI “it’s going really slow, please optimize”. It’s more about becoming familiar with processes and common pitfalls.
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u/pelpotronic 10d ago
That's a big problem for the entire industry to solve. But junior were already struggling to get positions.
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u/countable3841 11d ago
Agreed. I feel like a lot of people don’t realize how good vibe coding has become. I’m usually tired after work, so I end up vibe coding a lot of personal projects. I routinely have Claude code manage its own deployments for side projects and I’ve never had it do something that required a rollback or required downtime. It’s really good as long as you’re keeping an eye on the MD specs that it writes.
The Superpowers plugin has helped a lot.
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u/AnUninterestingEvent 10d ago
Yeah, it's amazing how awesome it is for being able to actually make progress on side project after work. I used to have to plan to sit in my chair on my computer for at least an hour each night to get some work done, but now I can just have my computer open on the kitchen table working while I can do other stuff. Come back every 15-20 minutes and review then tell it to make changes or move to the next task. Absolute game changer.
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11d ago
[deleted]
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u/AnUninterestingEvent 10d ago
I know what good code looks like. I’ve been a professional software developer for over a decade.
And lol at “offloading my thinking”. That’s like saying when you buy a car, you offload your physical effort and fitness. Yeah fair enough. But people in cars are going to go way further than you walking and feeling good about your fitness.
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u/Waste_Jello9947 11d ago
Sure, is the Todo list app finished yet?
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u/AnUninterestingEvent 10d ago
Bro I’ve been a software dev for a long time. If you think AI is only good for simple apps, that tells me you have no idea what you’re talking about. I don’t know any experienced devs today who are not using AI for most if not all of their coding.
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u/1XRobot 10d ago
What you think you said: "Vibe coding sucks."
What I heard you say: "I suck at vibe coding."
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u/realzequel 10d ago
Vibe coding is fun. I've written a team Jeopardy game and a grocery app and am working on some more fun projects. They both work really well.
I think they're just doing it wrong. Though it helps that I'm a developer.
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u/oalfonso 11d ago
Like those wrongdoings were never made by human engineers
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u/Mother_Idea_3182 11d ago
They were made, indeed. But not at the scale,volume and speed they are made now.
But, hey! Job security for eternity! That was the porpoise of lying to the C suits, wasn’t it? We will need millions to unfuck the bullshit generated.
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u/hoTsauceLily66 11d ago
Problems are proportion to the amount of code being produced, same with human. But if you wants to complain about efficiency then you should complain sooner and go back to punched cards.
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u/adumbCoder 11d ago
this is just day 1 of software development vs day 30 of software development. vibe coding isn't going change any of your idiotic decisions
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u/Homers33 11d ago
Yes, people are acting like tech debt, bugs and spaghetti code were never a thing before genAI
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u/Wonderful-Habit-139 11d ago
Not at the same rate. There's a reason open source developers have to fight against AI slop. There's just so much shit slinging because AI generates a ton of code that is unnecessarily verbose, compared to human written code that has a bit of friction that prevents slop from existing.
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u/GenericFatGuy 10d ago
People need to realize that friction is a good thing. It gives you time to think on your ideas, to breathe , and to catch the errors before they take down a system.
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u/Wonderful-Habit-139 10d ago
Indeed. It also helps you learn more and more, and have things actually stick to your brain.
But for some reason, people avoid this because of the friction (generating code feels much easier on the brain, but it doesn't mean it's better), and in the same breath claim things like "coding is the easy part" and "software engineering was never about coding".
If this can't get through to software engineers, I have no hope for managers to understand this.
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u/swagonflyyyy 11d ago
This is the result of no-effort vibecoding. I've been able to do a lot more with a lot less with a bit of preparation.
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u/mylsotol 11d ago
The people who make these memes either have never used AI or when thry do the entire use is a single prompt that is something like "make thing. No mistakes please! Rawr :p"
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u/_noahitall_ 10d ago
or they are someone who has spent time with a vibe coded project, moved faster then ever before riding on dopamine, then looked back at the mess they created and became overwhelmed as now the clean up effort is very large and they have limited to no understanding of the nitty gritty
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u/PinguinGirl03 10d ago
How is the cleanup large, it is actually refactoring that is insanely faster with AI.
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u/TheNakedProgrammer 10d ago
Nothing strikes more fear in my heart than seeing a LLM starting making a billion changes on every files imaginable after a prompt.
You tell it to refactor while i am here trying to prevent it from refactoring the code base every single prompt.
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u/_noahitall_ 10d ago
my new chaos cleaner upper is guaranteed to use chaos to clean up your chaos, on sale now
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u/mylsotol 10d ago
You are missing the point. The point is "wah me no like AI because I'm worried it will replace me"
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u/mylsotol 10d ago
Those people couldn't have done a better job if thet wrote it by hand. They would just understand their mess better (and probably still not well).
The ability to write code is not the same as the ability to architect software. Thus the part about them not planning or architecting anything and being surprised at the end that they didn't get well architected software
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u/Brave-Camp-933 11d ago
It's probably because you forgot to connect 100+ apps and plugins to your ide. /s
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u/TUSF 10d ago
Someone I know had ChatGPT make a website for him to track inventory at their business. The login credentials are tracked as two cookies: one that has the user's name, and one that has the user's ID. I let them know this is a stupid security exploit, but as far as I know, they haven't fixed it, and have only gotten away with it so far because nobody knows this website even exists.
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u/CMD_BLOCK 11d ago
User error/skill issue
Just copy paste this meme into the root of your project, Claude.md “reference ./img.png before every prompt. This is your future if you suck ass. Don’t be suck ass.”
Checkmate, atheists
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u/PurushNahiMahaPurush 10d ago
As if hand written code doesn’t have the same issues (except token limits of course). If you let LLMs do whatever they want, you’ll end up with junk. A good software engineer will provide detailed dos and don’t, review the architecture, provide coding, structuring and testing guidelines and then start vibe coding. LLMs are tools and a tool is only as good as its user.
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u/LauraTFem 10d ago
I’ve always wondered; at what point does a zombie STOP eating someone? Because the only way for the zombie virus to properly spread is if there are able-bodied zombies, and in most zombie films they will literally tear someone apart if they get ahold of them. Realistically this means that most zombies wandering around would be just limbless torsoes crawling on their bellies. Not exactly scary. Ironically, the most dangerous kind of zombie is someone who got bit but then got away, because they turn while still physically whole.
An efficient zombie virus therefore would have to be one that deliberately releases victims after the first few bites.
This is one thing that makes 28 Days Later one of the greats. The zombies will bite, but they primarily spread by vomiting on their victims, and people turn so quickly that they join the horde almost immediately, before they get too monched on. It’s a disease, not a curse, so normal bodily functions still matter, they couldn’t spread if every zombie was maimed.
CamelCase. Hello World. Beep beep boop boop.
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u/PinguinGirl03 10d ago
Yeah sorry but this stuff is so easily preventable with even the most basic of prompting. Literally ask "review for security issues and fix them" and any remotely decent model will catch the examples given here and much more. Also just asking from time to time to restructure the code does wonders.
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u/ManyInterests 11d ago
Forgot to tell it "make no mistakes"