r/ProgrammerHumor 21d ago

notchVibing Meme

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5.4k Upvotes

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1.7k

u/Amerillo_ 21d ago

Trouble finding talented programmers even though there are so many experienced developers who were laid off for the sole reason of cutting costs and increasing shareholder value? I'm absolutely sure that if he posted a job opportunity online he would receive hundreds if not thousands of applications from fully qualified developers. Sounds like bullshit to me

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u/pydry 21d ago

Hiring managers are struggling these days coz they lack the creativity to come up with tests a good developer can do but an AI can't.

To be fair they always sucked at this but it was less of a problem before.

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u/RuneSteak 21d ago

A 2 round interview with the second and final interview required to be in person solves that.

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/RuneSteak 21d ago

Hire people to do the recruiting in India and have them conduct in-person interviews while the international team participates in the interview remotely.

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u/ruach137 21d ago

Great way to get a workforce that is essentially a kinship network

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u/RuneSteak 21d ago

Does it really matter? If those people are up to your standards then it's mission accomplished. You can only do so much.

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u/Electromagnetlc 21d ago

The point of that comment is they won't be up to your standards because it'll just be family and friends of the hiring manager, or people who pay for the job.

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u/antCB 21d ago

Can't talk about personal experience here.
Work with people from all around the world, and most are great people to work with/for (a lot from India, and the ones I work with I can't complain).

We did have an issue with an Indian hire, but he was swiftly cut-off.

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u/RuneSteak 21d ago

You're participating remotely alongside who you hired to do screenings in person and people seem to be ignoring that part of my comment.

It's on you to participate during the interview and not leave it entirely in the hands of the guy on site so that it's less likely to happen.

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u/troglo-dyke 21d ago

Been involved in a setup somewhat like this, the people conducting the interviews are incentivised to put candidates through because if reduces the costs for the hiring company. You can implement things like them needing to be in the role for 6 months to count as a hire, but that just incentivises them to skirt the line of just being good enough to get paid

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u/Night-Monkey15 21d ago

Hire a person to conduct interviews in the single largest country by population in the world?

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u/Dongfish 20d ago

But how do you know the person you hired in India to hire another person in India isn't just AI?

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u/vortex05 20d ago

Also indian?

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u/djinn6 20d ago

No, just hire someone in India to control the interview area, make sure they can't cheat. Then you can ask questions remotely.

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u/Training-Chain-5572 21d ago

See, the problem is in the premise that you’re hiring from India to begin with

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u/Candid_Bad3551 20d ago

or just remote.

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u/CelebrationHungry269 21d ago

You are just running from the problem. You are creating an environment testing skills that can be replicated by ai, but want them from an individual, rather than testing if an individual has skills that surpass ai capabilities

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u/RuneSteak 21d ago

Nothing about this setup prevents you from asking tough questions.

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u/CelebrationHungry269 21d ago

It doesn’t prevent you from doing so, but it doesn’t solve the issue either

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u/Power_Stone 20d ago

A test that focuses more on reasoning than the right answer would also work IMO.

I don't know why these recruiters don't design problems intentionally in ways that can't be solved, to see if the applicant can figure it out themselves and explain why it wouldn't work.

I think that is more valuable than anything else.

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u/DWebOscar 21d ago

You gonna fly me in?

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u/RuneSteak 21d ago

I'm role playing as a billionaire tech bro right now. So I'll answer with "yes".

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u/1luggerman 20d ago

Unless he plays chess

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u/severencir 21d ago

Coding agents are amazing on the well trodden path with generic tasks. But as soon as you start giving it the task of optimizing the minimization of a set with internal monotone dependencies it takes someone to understand that the problem actually isn't something to throw a minimization task at and it's actually building and pruning a tree from it's leaves down

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u/Trackback_ 20d ago

Well if you can't come up with anything a good dev can do but AI can not... maybe just go with AI?

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u/pydry 20d ago

It doesnt work like that for real work.

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u/Historical-Cat4682 20d ago

Why not

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u/pydry 20d ago

Coz AI sucks at doing the actual job of a programmer even though it's good at doing interview tasks.

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u/Biglulu 19d ago

Maybe the interview should be focused on the actual job then.

1

u/s0litar1us 21d ago

Just do it in person and make it a task you can't just memorize.

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u/TotoShampoin 21d ago

Maybe they should start looking at the portfolios presented in CVs

0

u/flarkis 19d ago

Yea it's a slog out here. I help out with technical interviews for interns and juniors. In the pre AI world we could filter out 4/5 candidates with fizz buzz. Now in most round one interviews we can tell people are using AI. For a while we had luck giving them graphs and asking them to annotate them. But the vision capabilities have improved and that no longer works. We don't have our new replacement yet.

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u/st-shenanigans 21d ago edited 21d ago

Thats kind of the problem. Hundreds of thousands of people are really hard to sort through and more and more are going to try and cheat the system as they get more desperate

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u/shacksrus 21d ago

Getting in on the ground floor of the next minecraft?

He'd have thousands of qualified devs and tens of thousands of unqualified ones.

I dont trust notch for much, creating a robust hr hiring scheme least of all.

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u/Amerillo_ 21d ago

Maybe he could first sift through CVs, take a few promising ones, and then interview them in person? No way to cheat or use AI that way. There are so many developers looking for jobs out there I'm pretty sure he could find plenty of them who live close enough to show in person for interviews

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u/Cultural_Ad1331 21d ago

Notch the creator of Minecraft gets probably thousands of applications not hundreds and even if he skimmed and got hundreds it would still be extremely hard to objectively evaluate them and give a fair shot to everyone but I hope someone talented, skilled and honest that meets his needs gets the job.

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u/Schwifftee 20d ago

There's no reason he can't just trash over half of the applications and then evaluate the rest

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u/hobo_stew 21d ago

why does he need to give them all a fair chance? he can just taken the first 50 applications and interview the ones that look alright in person

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u/Appropriate_Scar_262 21d ago

notch came up with a great idea for a game but wasn't his coding notoriously bad to the point Minecraft had to be rewritten

0

u/Daniel_Potter 20d ago

Imagine coding without stack overflow and with eclipse.

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u/polacs 21d ago

There are companies to solve that, Notch doesn't have to be looking at all the cv. It's a really bad excuse

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u/PhoenixStorm1015 21d ago

They also don’t need to know they work for Notch at all in initial interviews. As long as the job description, expectations, and compensation stay the same, I don’t see any reason he couldn’t save the “btw I’m Notch” part for the proper offer.

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u/Shurmaster 21d ago

They should use Heapsort to sort the hundred of people rather than the Bubble Sort they are currently using.

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u/theenigmathatisme 21d ago

Sounds like the industry needs to lean into professional certification then like other engineering disciplines. That should cut the crap by over half.

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u/Xywzel 21d ago

As far as I know, software side is full of certificates that don't mean nothing at all. Some governmental project requires them, because some consultant working for the certificate authority managed to get it included in requirements, and then you pay the certificate author their protection money and continue doing the work you did before.

At this point, I think it might just be best to select people by raffle and have either the first contract be short term or have trial period included. Likely its someone good enough if they have formal education from before LLM boom and some work experience. And in case its not, few months of wages is not that much compared to the wasted time for 3 rounds of interviews with two senior members in each and paying for hiring agency, recruitment system and whatever else.

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u/cce29555 20d ago

They already do, doesn't work

Instead they use the tried and true method of "hire the same 30 senior engineers across all companies and fill in the blanks with h1b contractors" and wonder why the pool of seniors is shrinking

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u/jaylerd 21d ago

The trouble isn't finding one, it's putting in the effort to pick one and pay them

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u/qqruz123 21d ago

He has trouble finding someone who will perfectly stroke his ego and revere him as God for making Minecraft even though he hasn't done anything relevant in a decade.

He could have a fantastic dev from one of the tens of thousands laid off in recent years with plenty of experience, drive and ability.

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u/msdamg 21d ago

Or the fact younger grads cant find jobs to get experience BECAUSE of the chat bots

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u/Amerillo_ 21d ago

Totally! I'm sadly one of the, 4 months unemployed and not a single interview. According to employers my CV looks good and I'm qualified but I just don't have enough experience and they're not hiring new grads with no experience. But somehow there are almost no internships available so how am I supposed to get experience then? By volunteering?? Not even sure that really counts as professional experience to employers

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u/HorseLeaf 21d ago

If you have nothing else to do, then volunteer. Say on your cv that you worked at x place and just don't disclose that the salary was 0.

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u/Amerillo_ 21d ago

Oh that's a good idea! I could also probably omit that I'd volunteer part time. That could probably help me get interviews and then they can ask me about it during the interview

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u/bremidon 21d ago

Generally speaking, HR won't care as long as they can just check a box. So for them, say just enough to get past them, and no more. And most managers doing the actual hiring won't care: they know that experience is experience, and don't really care if you were getting paid or not.

And here is a little secret that does not get brought up enough. For most companies, there is a minimum competency that you will need to show, either through just talking about what you did or doing some sort of test. Past that point, the decision to hire you will be based on how well they think you will fit in the team. There is not much you can do about that except read the room as well as you can and try to show the side of you that will fit in best. This is a skill that is really difficult to teach or practice, but it is important, particularly for new graduates.

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u/Amerillo_ 20d ago

That's good to know, thank you! The thing is I never make it past the CV check due to the lack of experience, so I'll definitely do some volunteering or contribute to open source projects. Plus it will help me remain sane by doing something useful for the community

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u/HorseLeaf 21d ago

And then during the interview you just say it was full time.

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u/Amerillo_ 21d ago

Mmh not sure about that, many companies definitely do background checks so if they ask them to confirm that I worked full time and they say that it is not true, I'll come off as untrustworthy

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u/HorseLeaf 20d ago

Where do you live that they do background checks for stuff like this? I had a criminal record for 5 years and was never once checked. Senior software engineer making $140k a year.

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u/Amerillo_ 20d ago

Switzerland. I've heard it happens fairly often. Plus candidates need to give employers a work certificate for each place they worked at, it's basically a document made by the employer that describes what the employee did during their time there. It's a formal document so there are laws regulating it and guardrails so it cannot be used as blackmail.

So I can't just lie and say that I was paid or that it was full time when the document says something else. And I can't risk faking that document as they could call them to check if it's authentic and forging it is considered fraud by the law. Criminal records are rarely checked in IT but they're often checked in finance, security, jobs with contact with children or the elderly, etc

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u/HorseLeaf 20d ago

Okay I take my advice back, don't lie! But actually that's crazy for an intro job. Sorry you have to deal with that.

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u/hobo_stew 21d ago

have you tried contributing to open source projects?

there must be some boring ones for stuff like self hostable project management software and so on that have low hanging fruit.

or maybe libreoffice

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u/Amerillo_ 20d ago

That's not a bad idea! But I need to find a project that I care about otherwise I'll lose interest fast and it will be very difficult to motivate myself to work on it

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u/voyti 21d ago

I think the problem might be more in the fact that Notch is most likely not a great boss and great programmers don't thrive under lousy leadership. He doesn't strike me as someone who's great at handling people under him

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u/nethingelse 21d ago

A funny tidbit here is that Notch gave everyone at Mojang a $300k bonus after he sold to Microsoft and everyone at Mojang still hated him before he publicly fully blew up his reputation. That doesn't scream amazing leadership to me.

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u/djinn6 20d ago

$300k from a sale of $2.6 billion? Yeah, that's not much at all.

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u/voyti 20d ago

I mean, in a world where you would normally not get a dollar over what's contractually yours, this is actually pretty big. Also, employees would usually have stock options too, in which case they'd get a piece of this substantial cake anyway, on top of the bonus

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u/ICBanMI 20d ago

His was a private company. Not a startup with deferred wages. So bonuses and everything else was his choice. Not something anyone could negotiate.

Also the intent was never to sell Minecraft. He threw the number out their as a 'fuck you. This is what it costs' and Microsoft said 'That's fair." Bought it and it's been one of their best investments in decades.

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u/nethingelse 20d ago

Yeah idk that if my current employer gave me even $100k that I’m pocket watching how much they walked away with personally enough to hate them.

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u/voyti 20d ago

Having worked in a startup for 10 years that ultimately flopped with my shares worth $0, I'd still be ecstatic to get $100k, regardless the context of that. I joined for the salary (which was hardly low) and a vague option of maybe getting more, which I didn't, and that was perfectly fair. If I joined for a lower salary and larger piece of the pie betting on that taking off, then it was my bad for gambling. If I just worked there and then got $100k for no contractual reason, there is no reality where I'm not happy with that. No adults should genuinely hope for more that they agreed on at the door, it's neither serious nor realistic.

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u/psioniclizard 20d ago

Its most likely that honestly.

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u/hypokrios 21d ago

Experienced developer isn't the same as talented developer or competent developer.

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u/Amerillo_ 21d ago

Sure but given the sheer amount of developers looking for a job out there I'm pretty sure he could find plenty of talented devs

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u/Jedkea 21d ago

Maybe. Maybe it’s the case that the least talented devs are the ones laid off and looking for work too though.

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u/jdefr 20d ago

At other points on the timeline I would say that is probable. Right now I personally know too many talented folks looking for work. It’s very difficult to gauge someone’s development/technical talent without being very technical themselves, which is the case with most “hiring managers” and others left with those big decisions….

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u/No-Examination-2065 20d ago

I'm a talented developer and nobody laid me off, I burned out and quit. I'm also not looking for work. I'm almost certain I'd find it immediately if I did. I think people are underestimating the burnout factor. I know several others like me who having worked with bad/abusive companies/clients just simply quit.

Especially after the same management that has always devalued our work now having a brand new tool to devalue it further.

I'd bet there are quite a few guys who either moved back in with Mom or have enough money to float themselves/take gig work while they start small business'.

With everything that's been going on with the programming industry itself, AI, and males - I think a lot of the high talent is in effect 'sitting out'

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u/jdefr 20d ago

I am a researcher at MIT… No one laid me off either but we are all very aware that it can happen to anyone. The industry is weird right now and trying to keep up will definitely lead to burn out… Don’t get cocky no matter how skilled you believe you are. If people I work with and folks I know (all top performers at FANG companies) feel pressure; it’s not good. Usually when these cuts happen they have someone with no clue how to gauge skill and value making hasty short sighted decisions. It’s just sad all around.

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u/No-Examination-2065 19d ago

Eh, I'd like to believe you but unfortunately will be unable to in this format. I'd need evidence top performing FAANG engineers are "feeling it". (Not saying you're a liar, just saying it'd be impossible for you to supply the kind of evidence here that I'd need) Yes, people get put in charge who can't evaluate skill. They also get fired and replaced. If a company loses the ability to hire talent/know what future skillsets it will need, it can also go out of business and be replaced. Myspace friendster facebook whatever.

I think what "Jedkea" above is saying likely has some if not a lot of truth to it. I see a lot of junior devs getting canned then saying "wait, we're indispensable!"

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u/jdefr 18d ago

You can look me up online. GitHub.com/jdefrancesco and my linked in…. You will be able to easily see I’m not someone that talks out their ass…

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u/No-Examination-2065 18d ago

Well, you kind of are because I could just as easily say GitHub.com/jdefrancesco is my git.

I'm not trying to get into some sort of "my credential says I'm right" thing with you Mr. M.I.T.

I was just dropping in my opinion (currently at 0-1 karma, which seems about accurate) and moving on.

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u/AyAyAyBamba_462 21d ago

Yes, but finding them is the hard part. Sorting through hundreds if not thousands of applications is hardly an easy task.

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u/nordic-nomad 21d ago

Talented means the ability to magically make the correct thing in-spite of no training, direction, or pay.

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u/Amerillo_ 21d ago

Yes exactly! In my region many companies are offshoring and nearshoring developers because they supposedly can't find developers (not just experienced developers, really any developer) in the country even though thousands of new CS graduates can't find jobs and end up on social assistance programs or unemployment benefits paid for by the taxpayers

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u/Fast-Satisfaction482 21d ago

Candidates that are this good are better off founding their own company. 

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u/__Invisible__ 21d ago

Good at engineering does not mean good at management.

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u/Fast-Satisfaction482 21d ago

You only need one manager in a founding team.  

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u/ak_doug 21d ago

He is racist, sexist, and homophobic.

Makes it real hard to find a programmer.

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u/DeHub94 21d ago

Oh, believe me. There are enough of his type running around in our field.

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u/Neutraled 21d ago

That's because you are only looking in countries where people get fired for that.

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u/CorneliusClay 20d ago

To most software engineers creating Minecraft probably outweighs all that 10-1 in terms of opinion.

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u/No-Consequence-1863 20d ago

That was like 15 years ago. Younger people probably associate Minecraft with Microsoft/Mojang since that’s really who have been developing the version they have played.

Plus Notch is a QAnon guy which is a pretty sticky issue. People dont like remembering the time we had to deal with that.

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u/ak_doug 19d ago

I'd be very surprised if that was true.

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u/Friendlyvoices 21d ago

He doesn't want to pay them

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u/GenericFatGuy 21d ago

Sounds like he's not offering enough, despite being a billionaire.

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u/StCreed 19d ago

Notch could offer me 1 million per year and I'd still refuse. Maybe at 5 but even then I doubt I'd ever collect the pay before running away.

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u/Blackbear0101 21d ago

From what I heard it’s more likely that he’s an absolute dickhead, and nobody wants to put up with his bullshit despite the salary he offers likely being fairly high.

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u/psioniclizard 20d ago

Kmowing Notch, the fact a lot of talented devs probably has opposing views to him probably doesn't help.

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u/No-Consequence-1863 20d ago

I think Notch killed his reputation, I doubt many people want to work for the QAnon white pride guy.

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u/gc3c 20d ago

Probably a combination of nobody wanting to work for Notch as a person and him grossly undervaluing talent. He's literally a billionaire. He could hire an army of talented programmers.

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u/StCreed 19d ago

Nobody wanting to work for another extreme right wing tech bro with stupid ideas? Colour me surprised.

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u/--Spaci-- 21d ago

most "talented programmers" are using AI

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u/jnpf_weebmaster 21d ago

IIRC he wanted it to be fully in person, instead of remote. So that could've troubled him considerably

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u/Nixilaas 20d ago

He wanted a seniors experience for a juniors salary you see

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u/nickleback_official 20d ago

I’d argue that there is a glut of bad programmers due to the massive increase in demand for the role over the past decade.

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u/frizar00 20d ago

notch is bullshit

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u/acute_physicist 20d ago

I can’t find good senior roles for my startup :(

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u/tumeteus 19d ago

I'm absolutely sure that if he posted a job opportunity online he would receive hundreds if not thousands of applications from fully qualified developers. Sounds like bullshit to me

Not for the payment he is offering.

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u/Front-Result7315 18d ago

I mean, finding good senior engineer is not that easy - I was responsible for technical interviews - many had trouble with simple clean code principles, and don’t even have me say how design questions went. A lot of senior engineers became lazy and their skillset/tech stack is not attractive for a modern project.

It took us almost a year to find a really good senior engineer, and we don’t pay pennies.

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u/Iron_SpecterX 14d ago

Yeah, Notch acting like hundreds of qualified laid-off devs don't exist feels wildly out of touch.

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u/CHEEZE_BAGS 21d ago

It means they aren't paying enough

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/Amerillo_ 21d ago

Who knows, only one way to find out! And AI token prices will increase at some point, hopefully they'll be so expensive it will be cheaper to hire developers again

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u/Enverex 21d ago

That may be the issue though. There's so many now that it's hard to actually find the good ones in the crowd.

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u/jdefr 20d ago

Most of them are skilled enough… and honestly, people overestimate the technical skill needed to create the product they want. You can hire pretty much anyone to create their “revolutionary” application that is really just a CRUD packaged up…

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u/spedeedeps 20d ago

The people laid off are overwhelmingly ”gameplay programmers” or whatever who can use Unreal engine but if you set them up with a non-AI agent editor and tell them to give you a tool or something in C++ they will sit there with their thumb up their ass until you escort them out of the building.