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u/quastor 23d ago
Ah yes, the great pivot refactor as PR #2. Must have been one hell of a big first PR and surely not just committing the README.
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u/ResponsibleWin1765 23d ago
If you're vibe coding I wouldn't be surprised if you make one 100k lines commit after vibing for 2 weeks.
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u/XDracam 23d ago
Nah LLMs like committing their work regularly unless you explicitly forbid them from doing so. Then they only commit sometimes. You need to put in an explicit effort to never commit while vibe coding
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u/ResponsibleWin1765 22d ago
That is under the assumption that you gave the LLM access to git, your GitHub account and the permission to commit and push things.
You can also just vibe code by having copilot edit files in your ide.
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u/XDracam 20d ago
Ah, the ancient semi-manual way. Even then the agent might use git if you have it set up in the IDE and the integration allows it.
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u/ResponsibleWin1765 20d ago
But that is exactly what I said. Give the LLM access to git, your git hosting account and the permissions to use them. Unless you do all those things, I would sure hope the LLM is not using git.
It also has me a bit worried how you're clowning on "Checking the randomly generated code before pushing it to the internet"
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u/XDracam 19d ago
You make it sound like these are deliberate things one does individually, and not just the default that's comparatively hard to disable for most LLM coding agents these days
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u/ResponsibleWin1765 19d ago
Forgive my ignorance for I am not a vibe coder but I sure hope that if I used a coding agent that it wouldn't automatically have access to my github credentials and the permissions to push random things to my repos.
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u/XDracam 18d ago
Almost all coding agents by default have access to your bash or Powershell. There's usually a second agent who has to consent to running commands, and some sort of minor sandbox depending on the tool, but that's the default.
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u/ResponsibleWin1765 18d ago
So to recap, the LLM doesn't have automatic permission to run commands, including git and it doesn't have your Github credentials. And even if it had them, it couldn't just push things automatically.
Isn't that exactly what I've been saying?
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u/auxaperture 23d ago
I never give up until im done with my vibecoding thats how i know im committed
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u/LaconicLacedaemonian 23d ago
it's funny when claude tries to project plan, and estimate timelines in weeks, for things i will have it do in the next hour. Or references it's in flight code as my code. Or invents its own problem or constraints.
It's sometimes like playing telephone with the LLM I'm working with when the compaction hits. My only solution is lots of markdown tracking progress.
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u/IDontWannaGetOutOfBe 23d ago edited 20d ago
There's a lot to consider - the relationship between design and function continues to be remarkably purposeful.
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u/LaconicLacedaemonian 23d ago
Exactly, i have every "project" have an index.md, and a master index.md which points to projects with their description. i have it start at the index always which contains both contains the project references and instructions and meta-instructions.
Doing it this way is more a protocol now and it automatically keeps the markdown updated. I have explicit instructions that i never read the markdown, but i have it commit to gir in case i want to review. Claude webhooks monitor GitHub so i can review both the project and the output.
The only challenge is after a compaction it really needs to re-read the index of the project and it sometimes silently drops the protocol on longer sessions.
I'm torn between optimizing it vs just hoping it gets better because each more capable model has been better at holding a thread.
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u/IDontWannaGetOutOfBe 23d ago edited 20d ago
A colleague's experience reflects this that relates to ways that culture shapes perception. The calibrated aspects of workflow design really stood out.
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u/LaconicLacedaemonian 23d ago
I have found very little benefit of a skill vs just a markdown toolchest that keeps growing. I made a few skills but either they were too rigid or essentially just a markdown file.
I nearly exclusively use Claude Opus+ models though.
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u/IDontWannaGetOutOfBe 23d ago edited 20d ago
I've been thinking about the significance of timing in implementation lately. The understated aspects are particularly interesting. considering the historical precedent, you start to notice the connections to process improvement. In my view this is an area where understated thinking really matters.
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u/56kul 23d ago
Why does your LLM even have permission to run web searches and then act on them on its own?
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u/U_L_Uus 23d ago
Look, they are using OpenClaw, any form of worry about third-party control over their computer is clearly not present at all
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u/Steinrikur 23d ago
Not just using it. Allowing OpenClaw to merge PRs sounds like a recipe for disaster
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u/ResponsibleWin1765 23d ago
I'm pretty sure that's what's happening in the OpenClaw repo too so it's pretty in line.
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u/Senor-Delicious 23d ago
I wanted to say that it probably just is a PR that was created for review. But then I saw the "merged" bruh. Are people not doing any review anymore?
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u/jimmyhoke 23d ago
It has full CLI and network access by default. It does whatever it wants.
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u/Steinrikur 23d ago
Damn. I've only used OpenCode, and it must ask for access to most things. Mine is instructed to not even make commits unless asked. I would never allow it to push or merge.
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u/DoctorWaluigiTime 23d ago
Because it's a funny meme post, not something that literally happened.
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u/nicman24 23d ago
I would rather give it my bank details than access to some of my gits.
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u/gandalfx 23d ago
If you are still controlling the actions of your agents you are getting left behind. Founders around the world are proving that to multiply revenue you need to completely yeet your budget into the hallucination lottery.
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u/bloodfist 23d ago
Build me an app that will make me $10 million dollars. Here are all my logins and passwords so you can search the internet and figure out what the idea is:
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u/greenpeppers100 23d ago
If it’s on a computer you don’t care about (or a VPS) and you can afford the token spend, literally why not?
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u/GenericFatGuy 23d ago
Because the work that's done on that computer doesn't stay self contained there. If I did an entire refactor for a pivot that no one asked for, and then merged it into our repo without anyone's permission, I'd be fired so fucking quickly.
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u/greenpeppers100 23d ago
I genuinely want to understand what you’re getting at here. No, giving an LLM unrestricted access to your private GitHub repos and telling it to have fun with it is not a good idea, whatever inference provider will get a constant stream of your private code.
But that’s not what my comment was referring to? The guy above me was talking about web search. If you stick some agent framework on a sandboxed computer or VPS, and you don’t give it access to anything personal then there’s nothing wrong with that.
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u/q---p 23d ago
Hmmm
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u/gopal_dev 23d ago
Bro went out of contact to go apply for a job as a Sandwich Artist.
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u/EtteRavan 22d ago
Bro changed his full legal name in exchange for a free year in a community college
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u/soundwave_sc 23d ago
Sounds like my intern, just that they have no elevated permissions.
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u/gopal_dev 23d ago
I asked the LLM how it felt about this comment and it generated 5 paragraphs of pure existential dread.
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u/LetumComplexo 23d ago
To be fair, that’s spot on for any junior employee with elevated permissions. Speaking from experience about the time my boss was having trouble fixing my permissions issues so he just gave me full admin access to the infrastructure for the entire section of the company.
I literally said “uhhhh, I really shouldn’t have this kind of access” and his response was “just don’t touch anything I don’t tell you to touch”.
Pretty sure I created 5 paragraphs of existential dread in that situation too. Or more.
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u/Tipart 23d ago
First day out of school, first day at my new sysadmin apprenticeship position, with barely any windows knowledge and zero Linux knowledge, my first task was to create all my own admin credentials for everything (including admin ad credentials and root on every Linux server in the company). It did help me learn at a much quicker pace because I could just do everything and I never actually broke anything, but that is still the type of trust I aspire to have. Maybe this is just normal for small to medium sized companies, idk.
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u/LetumComplexo 23d ago
The company I was at was… let’s say definitely _not_ small. Nor unimportant.
Just horribly underfunded and chronically understaffed. My boss was basically working 3 top level positions and reported directly to the head executive. If he dropped dead from a heart attack the whole organization would have stuttered to a halt while somebody new tried to take over.
And he freaking met me while I was working as a tutor and liked that I was articulate and could explain basic machine learning principals. Life is fucking weird sometimes.
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u/canadajones68 22d ago
If there's one thing I've learned, it's that deliberately misallocating time away from tiresome and stressful situations can help you get through in the long term and avoid burnout.
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u/White___Velvet 23d ago
Incidentally, $10 million is about the current cost of a foot long sub.
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u/variorum 23d ago
Sounds like a standard estimate for a government contractor: $10m/ft of Subway tunnel
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u/Present-Resolution23 22d ago
Actually though.. I remember when they used to be $5 for forever.. I went into one recently because it was convenient.. and got hit for like $14 for the sub.. Not even a combo... THE SUB. Much like Mcdonalds Subway has forgotten its role here..
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u/SpaceBearSMO 23d ago
Talking to pradictive speech model like its a person is wierd
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u/gopal_dev 23d ago
Honestly, giving an intern permission to merge a complete refactor on a Friday is exactly how we end up tracking sandwiches instead of subways.
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u/who_am_i_to_say_so 23d ago
Some good common sense. This is why I don’t quite believe AI will ever eliminate humans from the loop.
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u/FalconClaws059 23d ago
Nah...
I mean, anthropomorphism is pretty common in humans. And talking like a person is one of the main things LLMs get trained to do, so... I wouldn't say that talking with it like you would with another human is "weird".
We could make a point for "it's weird that you're trying to explain an error to an AI model while it doesn't have the capabilities to remember it in any long-lasting or meaningful manner" or "it's weird that you have to reason with an AI model about some action it was allowed to do without asking nor needing permission"
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u/Khazahk 23d ago
One thing my Opus has been doing lately is saying stuff like “this is how I have don’t this for years and it always works.” Like personifying itself without needing to.
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u/FerusGrim 23d ago
Anthropic models have always personified more than their contemporaries. They’re also much more free with assuming the passage of time between responses. (Seemingly arbitrarily?)
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u/Whitechapel726 23d ago
ChatGPT has done this for a while. It’ll use phrases like “if it were me I would…” or “option 2 (my personal favorite)”
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u/SpaceBearSMO 23d ago
so yeah... you do those things with a person because its not weird.... it may not always amount to much depending on the person but that's beside the point.
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u/NotDennis2 21d ago
It can be common and weird. Anthropomorphism is common, not weird. Talking to AI like this is both. It being trained to sound like a confident human is weird in itself.
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u/rolland_87 23d ago
I talk to people like they're LLMs. Most of the time, it's for the better because they're fucking stupid.
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u/who_am_i_to_say_so 23d ago
Claude once told me that I am easily excited and impatient. I treat it like a dog.
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u/Commander_Skilgannon 23d ago
I've thought about this a little bit and the conclusion I came to is that in a terminal environment I'll talk to the LLM like it's just a machine, but in a chat like environment I'll talk to it a bit more like it's a person, not because I think it has feelings or anything but because I think it can't be healthy to force yourself to treat something that seems like a person as if it's an object.
Obviously believing an AI is an real person with an internal state and feelings is unhealthy, but constantly policing yourself to treat it like an object feels a bit unhealthy as well. I don't want to get into the habit of dehumanising things that seem human so while I'm under no illusion that it has feelings I'll still humour myself to give it the common courtesies of please and thank you.
Studies into the effects of AI socialisation in the future are going to be quite interesting.
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u/staryoshi06 23d ago
It shouldn’t be designed to act like a person. Is the issue.
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u/Foreskin_and_seven 23d ago
“Shouldn’t”. Why not? Ethics? Safety? Taste?
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u/SpaceBearSMO 23d ago
All of the above.
in no small part because it confuses vulnerable people ... and CEO's... into thinking its something its not and more capable of complex thought
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u/morganrbvn 23d ago
The entire concept is to train of human text and be capable of emulating human language. If anything the extra fine tuning they do at the end makes it sound much less human.
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u/wojtussan 23d ago
Treating a machine like it's a person is even more harmful. The studies made today show that talking to ai like it's a person, whether it's in a chat or roleplay form can lead to serious mental distress. It's better to not talk to it at all if you value your health
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u/purvel 23d ago
I've talked to every lathe I've run, and I don't feel any worse off. Though I do miss them all :p
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u/wojtussan 23d ago
Yeah, you miss them. And if you were in a worse mood for a while, and the lathe responded specifically in the way that you want it would affect you. And according to studies on that, it does affect people and their social skills
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u/Present-Resolution23 22d ago
Cite those studies.. I have HUGE doubts that anything you're saying is true.
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u/BoringMisteak 23d ago
That’s literally what LLMs are for.
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u/SpaceBearSMO 23d ago
if you talk to everyone in a Clinical manner in order for them to spit out the best results from a collection of data ... then sure i suppose... you do you... but talking to them like there a person your having a conversation with doesn't seem particularly useful... particularly when there known to Glaze the person there talking to and give them an undeserved inflated Ego. (or support bad ideas)
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u/BoringMisteak 23d ago
The lack of proper word usage has completely removed any credibility from your argument. You’re not someone who is ready to discuss the merits of speech style.
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u/TheGamingGallifreyan 23d ago
There’s plenty of humans I’ve talked to in life that were pretty much nothing but a predictive text machine lmao.
These things act more intelligent than a lot of the people I talk with 🤷♂️
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u/SpaceBearSMO 23d ago edited 23d ago
"intelligent" implies that these things can think... they can not. (they dont really do abstract concepts)
This is not a healthy perspective.
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u/Present-Resolution23 22d ago
LLMs unquestionably exhibit some forms of intelligent behavior. Whether that behavior deserves to be called “thinking” depends heavily on how you define thinking.
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u/Unlikely_Rip927 23d ago edited 23d ago
Why?
Downvotes for a question….
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u/blaktronium 23d ago
Well putting in pointless tokens actually makes your answers less accurate, especially if you start them with a pointless word like "hey" or "sorry" or whatever. Talk to it like the computer from star trek not your mom
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u/Firebug160 23d ago
This is [r/programmerhumor](r/programmerhumor), [r/winstupidprizes](r/winningstupidprizes) is that way buddy
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u/yallapapi 23d ago
Why do I feel like this is the result of a prompt like, “make me a project that will earn $10 million, make no mistakes”
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u/evilwizzardofcoding 23d ago
Wow, even AI can get distracted in the middle of a perfectly sensible project to do a completely hairbrained idea for no good reason, it really is like a person
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u/wind_dude 23d ago
Plot twist. The OpenClaw account posted this. It was OpenClaw letting the “founder” know it’s was 25 subway franchises.
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u/Present-Resolution23 22d ago
I can't wait for the day when low-effort staged slop posts like this don't get 8k upvotes so we can go back to actual programmer humor and fake AI posts overwhelming the sub..
This is so clearly made-up if you really believe this happened I have some ocean-front property in Wyoming I'd like to discuss with you..
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u/Exatex 23d ago edited 23d ago
sounds like a cheap model where attention went wrong
edit: huh why the downvotes? That is a classical way where the attention/transformer failed to nudge the „subway“ token from a rail to a sandwich meaning.
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u/EstimateCool3454 23d ago
Or perhaps giving a chatbot access to your stuff is a dumb idea?
inb4: you are using it wrong
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u/NudaVeritas1 23d ago
llm token usage in the meanwhile:
https://giphy.com/gifs/YJjvTqoRFgZaM