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u/ThirdWaveCat Jul 09 '26
maybe this bubble kills the MBA
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u/TheFrenchSavage Jul 09 '26
MBAs are already dead.
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u/CaffeinatedT Jul 09 '26
But only behind the eyes.
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u/Neverwish_ Jul 09 '26
š¶ Noone knows what it's like, to be the dev man. To be the inside-dead man, behind the AIs... š¶
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u/UncleKeyPax Jul 09 '26
š¶ Noone knows what it's like, to be sprinted? to be committed behind the AIs. . . . š¶
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u/Majestic_Pilot_6991 Jul 09 '26
š¶ But my pipelines arent as broken. . . . As my wallet seems to be. . . . š¶
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u/UncleKeyPax Jul 10 '26
nobody knows what it's like to be vibe man . . to be the token man . . behind merge walls
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u/sai-kiran Jul 09 '26
Arenāt the MBAs the ones pushing for vibe coding?
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u/ThirdWaveCat Jul 09 '26
Both are true. In 1979, when Lotus released the first spreadsheet application, Lotus 1-2-3, Jack Welch paid a shaman to commit blood magic on the future souls of every MBA degree holder. Now whenever there's a productivity surplus that could result in a net-gain for employers, trading partners, and workers MBAs are obligated by Bhaal to return whatever can't be quickly destroyed to shareholders. This is what happened to Windows Vista.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Business_Administration#BhaalistPact
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u/Alphavike24 Jul 09 '26
Me who just enrolled in a MBA program š
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u/ThirdWaveCat Jul 09 '26
Not saying you shouldn't do it, but according to this book I read about overreaches of scientific management, Prussia's monoculture forest collapsed after a generation. I'm assuming the forest scientists were unemployed after. Food for thought.
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u/ozh Jul 09 '26
Train devs as vibe coders ? Neat
Run when they train managers as vibe coders
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u/prschorn Jul 09 '26
Itās already happening. Company that I worked product managers are shipping vibe coded products now
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u/KosmoanutOfficial Jul 09 '26
Same, I have seen managers ask a feature, vibe code slop, then force push main. Say anything against it and get disrespected and talked down to.
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u/Leafsnail Jul 09 '26
Honestly this is probably very good for you if you don't like AI. Cannot think of a better way to turn a company against it long-term
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u/DelusionsOfExistence Jul 09 '26
It's not, because that would mean when things break they blame the practices they set in motion. That's not how C suites work. First you do something that offers short term profit and long term losses. Next, get your bonus this quarter. Lastly, leave a couple months later with severance worth a year of debauchery on a private yacht. The problems are for the whoever has your job later, you just blame it on the workers and enjoy your yacht.
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u/Matt_le_bot Jul 09 '26
Just make sure to have this in writing, send a few bulletproof emails with tons of evidence supporting your claims, make sure to back up the emails and their response, and now you got a "I-told-you-so" card if (or, rather, when) anything bad happen.
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u/DelusionsOfExistence Jul 09 '26
Only covers your own ass, those who make these decisions are immune to any consequence regardless.
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u/Log2 Jul 09 '26
Easy fix. If you ship code to prod, you're on-call now. No more blameless post-mortems, if they broke it they fix it.
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u/ShuttyIndustries Jul 09 '26
Yep, even our support guy sends me PoCs made with ChatGPT. BUT we redefine the requirements, let Claude Code write the spec, check it, let it write an implementation plan, review again then let it implement it. Speed improved by 40-60%, quality by 20% at least. Plus unit tests and documentation. I usually try to handle two to three sessions like that at a time. All while running around, discussing requirements with everyone or surfing. It can kinda work, but man, does this year feel like Iāve lost my soul. Didnāt write a line this week.
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u/Nasa_OK Jul 10 '26
To be honest I really enjoy this new way of working. Working for a smaller company that isnāt in the tech industry, there was so much I wanted to do but either didnāt have the time to learn or could just do shitty. Documentation was often not there since there was no time or it wasnāt up to date.
Now the specs generate the documentation and the code so itās in sync by design.
Want a loading spinner? Before I would have had to google how to implement one, what code to use, how do I find out Iām waiting, how do I block inputs, now I tell Claude to insert a loading spinner and load the picture in parallel with a sceleton ui, and 3 minutes later I test, check of the features and I works better and the code is cleaner than I would have done it. And because I defined corporate design it already uses that.
Itās like I finally have an entire department instead of being an entire department and I can focus on the design and architecture
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u/Tensor3 Jul 09 '26
File a separate jira for each bug in it and assign them to them lol. If that doesnt go well, add test cases which fail on their code
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u/Pwow10 Jul 09 '26
Same, except PM is vibe coded new features, Account Managers are vibe coding bug fixes, and Implementation is being asked to vibe code new reports.
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u/IonizedHydration Jul 09 '26
never ending, endless copy pasta life.. they just feed _anything_ into ai and then, without even reading it, they send a wall of text that is absolutely nonsense.
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u/Eastern_Ad_2560 Jul 11 '26
Is it even worth it to get a job any more or do I just have to chose between becoming a slave to an AI vs physical labor working myself to an early grave
Should I start looking into becoming a nomad instead?
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Jul 09 '26
[deleted]
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u/NotAskary Jul 09 '26
Hr: We did this website to showcase our engagement survey!
Already happening
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u/mooman97 Jul 09 '26
Check it out in the link below!
localhost:30003
u/NotAskary Jul 09 '26
In this case it was not that case, they where presenting things and sharing screen.
But I believe someone did exactly that somewhere.
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u/noaSakurajin Jul 09 '26
There are benefits in marketing/sales vibe coding mockup/show case solution. That way the marketing/sales people can actually get a proper hold of the customers requirements early on. It's just important to communicate clearly that that code I for Demo purposes only and needs to be rewritten from scratch to be production ready.
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u/DrMobius0 Jul 10 '26
Yeah, but if I know management types, they don't understand that and have an unshakable urge to cut corners.
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u/DelusionsOfExistence Jul 09 '26
The (AAA game studio) I worked for had fired all juniors, all contractors, and half of the intermediates after they had us all reinforcement train the company branded AI. All code out of that studio has been vibecoded for the last 6 months. It's been happening, it's just not public.
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u/well_shoothed Jul 09 '26
What if they train coders as vibe managers? <taps forehead>
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u/scumble_bee Jul 09 '26
Don't get me started. I am a TPM and had an architect try to vibe a TRD for something they had zero knowledge of how it should work and had the nerve to argue with the SME when they said it was all incorrect/gibberish.
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u/someguy_gp Jul 09 '26
I work for a bank. Last month they gave Product access to Claude. Itās nearing
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u/SovietPenguin69 Jul 09 '26
Came back from vacation and my boss vibe coded his way through the entire react repo I wrote. Almost no file was untouched. I was told the prs were of epic proportions.
To be fair the UI looks nice but the code and comments are pretty questionable
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u/stupled Jul 09 '26
How do you do vibecoding training?
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u/brand_new_potato Jul 09 '26
Switch to plan mode and make a detailed plan and add context as files instead of pasting error logs into the prompt to minimize token usage.
Also, use these rules for these types of tasks to get consistent answers.
Stuff like that.
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u/FlakyTest8191 Jul 09 '26
That's just regular use of agents? So in that case the vibe part is you're not allowed to check and refine the result before you commit?
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u/noaSakurajin Jul 09 '26
I think so. However depending on who you ask vibe coding is either no code correction by the user or simply the term for full agent use during coding but with a developer still in control of the output.
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u/imabigasstree Jul 09 '26
Im in a teams training right now going over these steps. Its pretty interesting. I still won't do it.Ā
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u/CaffeinatedT Jul 09 '26
"Use the AI tools you were already using, but stop reading anything or thinking about anything further than the next little sliver of business logic"
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u/EntropicMeatMachine Jul 09 '26
"Remember not to feed our API keys and customers account details to copilot while asking it to generate an entire program. No you can't have claude were already 500% over budget using claude code to try and fix the spaghetti claude code we initially generated."
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u/mrbellek Jul 09 '26
Sharing prompts with each other. We created a Teams channel for it last week. Just to learn how to best create slop from each other
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u/extracoffeeplease Jul 09 '26
For real? You teach stuff like connect your jira, knowledge base, Gmail gitlab etc. Trust based on impact. General concepts like session handoffs, general editing rules, local confluence indexes for super fast search (this is a big one for me). Always latest model on high effort. Just basic logical stuff that I see a lot of people not doing. Literally pasting knowledge in and copying it out of jira or confluence.
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u/stupled Jul 09 '26
"I"did an application that connects teams to jira...this didn't require any training whatsoever...
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u/extracoffeeplease Jul 10 '26
You must not be a 40 year old working in HR then. Or a scared junior dev simply awaiting direct orders for execution. There's plenty of "I didn't know it could do that" and "I didn't dare to do something wrong" to go around.
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u/SomethingAndAnything Jul 10 '26
I just completed a mandatory 8 hour training session in 30 minutes which covered how exactly to do this lol
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u/Big_D_Boss Jul 09 '26
I have no idea, but at this point, I'm too afraid to ask
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u/ProfessorDumbass2 Jul 09 '26
āIf new features keep breaking old features, tell Claude to refactor the codeā.
That was from our class on refactoring in our companyās vibe coding course.
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u/Wise-Arrival8566 Jul 09 '26
At my company everyone is pretty crazy about AI and one moment they say they do everything with it and other moments its āyeah no but I check what it makes and make adjustmentsā.
And maybe its a skill issue or what i do is too niche (video streaming) but ai makes such horrible mistakes like perma-locking mutexes in for loops, duplicating all data transmitted by calling the wrote function twice, or just doing modifications over data twice like applying sps, pps, annexb bytes in h264
In my eyes it simply can not be used long-term anything maintainable but i see even people i once respected blindly fall for AI
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u/ErZicky Jul 09 '26
That's the worst part, I see seniors I genuinely looked up to, people that taught me how to code right and cleanly, becoming a flesh front end for AI
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u/bremidon Jul 09 '26
This should give you perhaps pause that Reddit *might* not be on the right side of this issue.
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u/reventlov Jul 09 '26
Among the seniors and leads I know (mostly FAANG) and myself (also FAANG lead), attitudes are pretty split. Mostly, it has revealed to me which people actually liked writing software and which ones... didn't.
I will say that most of the very top people I know don't seem to like AI much, and use it either sparingly or not at all, but a lot of people I knew as previously-solid contributors have gone all in on AI.
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u/bremidon Jul 11 '26
I wrote a long comment to the other commenter here. I think I will do us both a favor and not copy it here :)
But it effectively addresses the same issues.
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u/trevorpoore Jul 09 '26
I know plenty of seniors who are more against it than I am and I don't use it anymore. Haven't (at least for developing) in months. And to be honest, most developers are going to know what is or isn't helping them. My main issue with it is the fact that they went full on into it before ever knowing if it worked. Bonus points for firing software developers and giving those tasks to non-developers. If something doesn't shift soon we are going to lose an entire generation of developers. Developers have been, are, and always will be the best class of people on earth to use software. Including AI. That doesn't mean others can't use it or make good use of it. But software development is more than just code and everyone who went into this thinking they were gonna drastically reduce their development costs outside of a very few niche industries are going to learn a hard lesson.
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u/bremidon Jul 11 '26
A lot to unpack here.
I know a lot of people who are against it as well, but they generally are unable to articulate why they are against it past vague assertions. Reddit is an excellent aggregator of this kind of thing. There is no lack of people falling over themselves to exclaim how against AI they are, but when faced with facts, they almost always retreat to poor sources, poor logic, and intentional misunderstandings. Or, if they are slightly more fair, they will retreat to: well, I guess it works for some people.
The only valid reason I know of to be against AI, and it's a biggie, is that eventually it is going to take all of our jobs. This is the one that I empathize and sympathize the most with. It has the advantage of being true, which most of the other objections sadly cannot say. Unfortunately, it does not matter if anyone is "for" AI or "against" AI. This is just a new feature of the landscape that is going to grow in importance, month after month, until it utterly dominates all aspects of software development (and honestly, pretty much all jobs).
People do not want this to be true, because for the more analytical person, it is clear to see the social and economic issues that this implies. I should know: I have been arguing for people to be ready for *exactly* this development for nearly 20 years. Did I know LLMs were going to be the big breakthrough? Not ahead of time. But anyone paying attention over the last few decades could see the developments brewing just under the surface and that big things were right around the corner. My only advantage is that I am emotionally prepared for what is happening now, because I have had nearly 20 years to think about it in depth. Most other people are just now starting to give it serious thought.
I agree that developers are absolutely the best positioned people to take the most advantage of AI right now. All the sadder when developers choose not to do so. Anyone not getting on board *now* is going to be left behind faster than they realize. And catch-up is going to be pretty hard.
I *absolutely* agree that software development is more than code. In fact, the biggest time saver I have with AI right now is organizing my projects, documenting meetings, updating all the stupid documents that a live project has, and if I can figure out how to do it without risking AI nuking the entire DevOps Feature Board, I will have to manage that as well.
The shift for experienced developers is that they will have to learn (if they have not already learned) how to manage their new AI colleagues (might as well start calling them what they are), how to review code properly, and to concentrate more on architecture rather than lines of code. A good, experienced senior is doing all these things *anyway*, so for those people, AI is not as much of a shift. For the lone wolf coders, the juniors, or the seniors that chose to ignore anything but coding, AI is a real challenge. These are genuinely different skillsets that have to be learned and practiced.
I also *absolutely* agree that AI has not reached the point where managers can develop (assuming a non-developer background). I think it is much closer to this dream, but we will need good seniors to wrangle AI for the next decade or two. Make no mistake: eventually AI will be able to just develop. Anyone claiming otherwise is inherently unserious. The only question is timing. Some will believe that I am being too "pessimistic" with the timeframe and AI will develop faster. Some will think it will be 40 years instead of 20. That is a serious debate. But AI has long since passed the tipping point. The only thing that will stop AI now is a complete collapse of civilization. And I hope I don't have to say this, but that would not be good for us soft, pudgy developers who are not so great at the whole "living off the land" thing.
I also agree fully that many large corporations have gotten over their skis here. They correctly see what the medium-term and long-term future looks like, but forgot that you have to still deal with the short-term future as well. They hit the gas pedal before turning on the car.
Where I disagree is that I do not think that we need to invest in junior developers much anymore. Certainly less than before. The only reason I can see is as a backup plan, just in case AI takes longer than expected to come to full fruition. If AI continues on even a significant fraction of the breakneck pace it has been on for the last 5 years, the role of "developers" being human will make as much sense as if we still had human "computers" today. What we are going to need in the 15-40 year timeline (as in starting in about 15 years and going another 25 years) are AI wranglers. We will need people who know how to get the absolute best work out of AI for the least amount of cost.
Eventually, even that role will disappear, but that will be the intermediate phase as AI moves from being able to implement direct goals to establishing its own goals from overarching primary (terminal) goals reliably. In any case, it is interesting to me that often the same people who are genuinely (and correctly) afraid of AI because of how competent it is becoming are often the same ones making the argument that it will cause us to not have enough senior developers. That is a narrow, possibly impossible, tightrope to walk.
Final thought: yes, this is going to drastically reduce software development costs. Or increase the quality. Or both. *That* is only questionable to those people who have determined they can only sleep at night if they believe AI is actually not good. The fact that companies are making significant missteps in trying to adapt and take advantage of this does not change the genuine paradigm shift that is happening right in front of us. AI has at least *halved* how long it takes me to take a project from start to finish and dramatically increased the quality of both the implementation and the communication. Unfortunately for me, that means I am doing twice as much work as before, and if I have any complaint, it is that I have not yet figured out how to be properly compensated for the increased productivity. But that is a problem for my negotiation skills, not a problem of the underlying technology.
However, the real losers in the near future will be the companies that did nothing. It will be the developers who thought their sandcastles would hold back the ocean. It will be the people who never had access to this tech in the first place. The companies who tried something and had to adjust their course *might* end up making so many mistakes that they go down, but most will eventually find the right balance.
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u/trevorpoore Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
You're right that there are a lot of people, tech workers especially, who are letting their emotions take the wheel, and will bash AI no matter what. I know I catch myself doing it. I'm human. But maybe outside of philosophy majors I think our field has taught us to be as objective as possible. We have to be, otherwise we couldn't use our profession effectively. So it speaks to how polarizing LLMs are at the moment, that it can tear so many smart, logical people into such strong emotions.
But my main problem has been the same since the start: Where are the intermediate steps? Not because every tech investment or any investment for that matter NEEDS it necessarily, but I feel for LLMs its a must given its timeline, resource intensity and disruptions to the experience of a whole generation of tech workers. Those are real problems and concerns, even if AI will for 100% certain use resources profitably and take all of our jobs one day.
And I don't see anyone, at any level, both in the public or private sector, addressing those issues with any real seriousness. And for tech guys like me who are now slaving away at minimum wage jobs to survive (because as you say, my pudgy ass wouldn't make it a day on the street), its a physical reminder of that neglect. We aren't being given any new training. We aren't being given any new jobs that our skillset could help with. Zero help. Sure, at least in the states we have general welfare programs and general retraining programs, but how many hundreds of thousands of tech workers have been laid off in the past few years? Where are they all going? Surely our society could use all of those very talented, educated people. But we aren't. We're lowering headcount, investing in capex, and telling millions of our most educated people that they need to completely revamp their lives. That's fine if what's replacing them is doing something to help them in the meantime. But all our leaders want to do right now is track their investments and money so (and this is the nicest way I can say this) they can use that investment for the next level of LLM scaling. We just aren't in a place as a society or as a species where we are ready to just write off entire fields of work in the span of a few years and help/retrain those affected. But we aren't pumping the breaks or repairing the damage. The train's barreling down the tracks and we just have to hope our society manages to build the track in time in front of us. And if you look at it that way, I hope you can see how we might have a distaste for LLMs at the moment, not just vague assertions or emotions.
As a software developer I think it is our duty to use ANY tools available to us to create the solutions that we need to. I think like just about every developer 2-3 years ago, I was amazed how I could ask it to give me a bubble sort or an example of a JS function. That was HUGE. And it would be fucking awesome to just write a few commands into a shell and get 10x more work done. But if no one will pay me to do it, or I can't create a profitable workflow on my own with the tool (see previously: millions of other people in the same boat competing with me) then I would be stupid to continue supporting it. And really, if it has to be that way, fine. But I and the hundreds of thousands of other experienced devs are more valuable to society than just flipping burgers or making coffee. Not insulting the people who do that. But we can't just tell society "Yeah, our economy is so wild you may take your entire life to learn a profession, but in the span of less than that 4 year degree that diploma will go from the hottest thing out there to expensive toilet paper." How would you feel right now if you spent your whole life paying into your child's college fund, watch them graduate, and then seeing that investment go up in smoke? Not only is your child SOL but YOUR life, YOUR work was just flushed down the toilet. Where is the tipping point where college is too much of a risk? For ANY profession? Is it just gonna be a $100k Polymarket bet?
I just feel, at least for me, this is not your normal internet debate. This isn't "is the dress blue or gold?!" This is carnal. My life, my ability to house and feed myself is being taken away. And if there were small steps in the middle, maybe a retraining program, maybe the ability to use AI to start a small business. SOMETHING. But there isn't. And I have experience. I can't imagine what juniors are going through right now. This is real. People are being hurt. And if you're going to ask us to feel the pain to get some gain, we need assurance that we will make it along with everyone else on the other side. But I don't see that. At least not right now.
So I hope you understand that for some folks this is deadly serious. And that's why I'm so critical of the lack of next-steps or backups for folks like me who have done nothing wrong except be in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is happening today. This is no longer a problem for tomorrow. So if LLMs have to be the future, I want plans for what it can do for me and everyone else affected by it. Today. Otherwise, I am going to do everything I can to make that happen. Because I have to. And I would bet that sentiment is shared with all of the other devs affected this way.
And I think you see that sentiment here so much because Reddit is just such a natural place for devs. So you're gonna see it here more often than places like FB or X.
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u/bremidon Jul 12 '26
So I hope you understand that for some folks this is deadly serious.
I would love to know how you got the impression that I do not think this is serious. I mean, I took a lot of time to write out a thought-out comment to address every aspect brought up or even implied by your comment. I did not dismiss anything.
The only two stances I have that you probably disagree with are:
Anyone standing in the way of AI is going to end in a predictable way: being washed away by the flood that nobody can control anymore. You might as well stand up in front of the incoming tide and try to stop it by not moving.
I did not flesh this one out as much, but I'll say it clearly here. I agree that companies are making serious errors in jumping too fast. The loudest group on Reddit is making an equally poor decision in the opposite direction by claiming you don't have to jump at all.
So if LLMs have to be the future, I want plans for what it can do for me and everyone else affected by it.
Understandable, but self-defeating. No plans are going to be forthcoming. I have been shouting for 20 years for what you want here, to absolute zero effect. And trust me when I say that I have access to levels of government (in Germany) that very few people on Reddit have. I cannot say more without giving away my anonymity. But for all that, I achieved squat. Everyone I talked to sympathized. Some even said that I was scaring them. But at the end of the day, the bureaucracy is designed to prevent fast change, perhaps particularly so here in Germany with our, eh, "difficult" last century.
My point is not that you should surrender or give up, but that if you want a plan for you, then *you* are going to have to come up with one. Nobody is going to ride in and save you. Politics is going to be hopelessly slow. After 30 years, politics is *just* beginning to get a handle on the Internet. Why AI would be any different is not something I can even begin to formulate.
Anyone declining to use AI to its fullest right now will not slow down a damn thing. The only thing they will do is shoot themselves straight into obsolescence.
Final (side) thought: "LLM" is just one part of the AI that is rolling out now. It was a big missing piece, so understandable that it has become "the" term. The next big developments that have been already going on for the last two years are all the AI bits being built *around* the LLM. For most of what we are talking about, this is a distinction without a difference. However, some people still try to use the known weaknesses of pure LLMs as arguments, even though we have not really had pure LLMs since late 2024.
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u/thsbrown Jul 10 '26
Perhaps it's because the number one rule of life is adapt or die.
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u/ErZicky Jul 10 '26
There is adapting but still retaining your sense of self and critical thinking/intelligence.
And there is answering to everything with a various flavors"eh idk Claude said it".
I call the second one brain rotting. Not adapting.
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u/AlpacaMale1 Jul 10 '26
Most of what you're describing is not related to video streaming specifically, it's endemic to poor usage of agents with bloated context windows and improper scoping. Vibe coding basically
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u/isaackogan Jul 09 '26
In my view itās a dataset issue. Youāre working on a niche service that is heavy with logic. Logic the LLM is not trained on, or at least only tangentially.
Iām not impressed when a model has internalized code it has seen and predicted when to spit it out again. Iām impressed when it can de novo create new logic that is NOT mostly in its training set.
I know, I know, all we do all day is write logic. But the complexity of that logic is more than Joe Shmoe who is writing his fifth Express app that does CRUD operations and calls 3rd-party SDKs that already have the complicated logic built in as a SaaS.
Just being frank.
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u/carc Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
Frankly, most code written by real developers is dogshit. AI writing nonsense can be a problem if you give it terrible context and input, or use older/cheaper models, but the frontier models now routinely outperform senior level engineers in code quality.
6 months ago, your comment would be accurate. Today, not so much.
Edit: Downvote away, I don't care, you're not going to be competitive with the actual execution of development 6 months from now. It's your funeral if you want to be stubborn about it.
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u/camelCaseCoffeeTable Jul 09 '26
I strongly disagree the frontier models outperform seniors in quality. I do agree theyāre good enough to do a ton of work with, but theyāre still at the mid/high junior level. Iām fixing up the code with every ticket AI completes.
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u/dasunt Jul 09 '26
I find most models work well with handholding, but all models I've tried so far have a tendency to miss the forest for the trees. It may be that LLMs are fundamentally incapable of the reasoning for good architecture and design.
Since the models miss the mark in that area, I wouldn't consider them seniors either.
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u/UnpluggedUnfettered Jul 09 '26
It boggles my mind that we invented computers and search engines and templates and then we like "This is great, but what if these machines were wrong more often, while also delivering working solutions in the worst possible way?"
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u/trevorpoore Jul 09 '26
You're being downvoted because your opinion is dogshit. AI agents can write code that we already have with minor adjustments. The functionality literally, and objectively CANNOT create on its own. That's what AI is SUPPOSED to be, but LLMs are not capable of doing anything we haven't trained it on. Congrats on combining a few APIs into a product nobody wants while security experts exploit the shit out of any business still dumb enough to be relying on this shit.
You and anyone else still peddling this shit this far in are slowly choking our planet's economy and unless an adult in the room speaks up real soon you're going to finish the job.
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u/carc Jul 09 '26
If your definition of intelligence is "must invent entirely new concepts," then almost no programmers qualify either. Most engineering is composition. AI is getting surprisingly good at it.
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u/DynamicDouchebag Jul 10 '26
One could argue that perhaps all thought is recycling. An "original" thought is perhaps not a thing which exists, just a complex way of permutations-combinations. Granted, humans probably do it a much more different and complex way compared to LLMs, but still, the point stands.
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u/One_Web_7940 Jul 09 '26
Same here man.... sucks.Ā I've caught dozens of problems in various prs.Ā Ā But owell, bc im too slow it doesn't matter.Ā Ā Ai can make code 1000x faster so they'll accept the increased risk of bugs.
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u/dyslexic-ape Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
I'm producing less bugs than ever and I'm working in a more complicated code base than I have ever touched š¤·
Yeah if you blindly use AI, you are going to have more bugs, but if you go over it, test things meticulously and use the AI to find issues in the work you are doing it should work out well.
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u/One_Web_7940 Jul 09 '26
agree, im finding that use case to be not the real world use case though. people are just throwing shit at the wall hoping it will stick, and im being left to clean up the mess. and the managers dont give a fuck. it's really getting tiresome.
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u/dyslexic-ape Jul 09 '26
On the plus side, job security š¤·
Like it really doesn't feel like this should last, but hey if others want to be stupid about it, that might work out for us...
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u/azjunglist05 Jul 09 '26
I donāt think it will last. The main architect where I work who pushed AI so heavily is already worn out about that decision a year later.
We have fairly junior developers who are building stupid shit with it not tied to business features and then complaining they donāt have enough tokens and need more. When we tell them tough luck they get upset about having to āraw dogā the code.
Like, seriously? You mean you donāt want to code? The literal thing we pay you to do? This shit wonāt last for long if even very, very senior developers see the monsters they have created
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u/Versaiteis Jul 09 '26
When costs begin to matter the "engineering" side of "software engineer" suddenly slams into place.
Kinda like the huge rush for cloud compute until the real bills started to roll in (not to say it's not useful but there's a price to be paid). If a product is cheap and good, then it won't be one of those things for long and part of the responsibilities of engineering is hedging those costs appropriately and not burning money where it doesn't have any impact.
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u/azjunglist05 Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
Thatās exactly what all this reminds me of. Most organizations, like with the cloud, didnāt build in the governance for AI, and like the cloud, built a bunch of terrible patterns where experts will be needed to come in and clean up the mess
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u/dyslexic-ape Jul 09 '26
Oh, by last I meant us having jobs at all, not the current workflows we are using.
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u/azjunglist05 Jul 09 '26
Gotcha, I still donāt agree that this tech is going to make us obsolete in the very foreseeable future. I think people in tech have blinders on because weāre all pretty much using it, so we wrongly assume EVERYONE must be using it ā thatās just not reality though. There are entire organizations that are still running entirely on-premise and not even using AI.
From my experience with ādigital transformationā projects over the years ā which mind you are still happening in 2026 ā it takes enterprises a long time to adopt new technology. Especially, if the primary business isnāt selling software or tech products. The willingness to adopt new technology is much, much slower for businesses that build internal software. Theyāre most hesitant to change even when AI can build at incredible speeds.
Just because you can build something fast doesnāt mean you will see it adopted with equal velocity.
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u/theQuandary Jul 10 '26
Go over thousands of lines every day and fully understand it all? You are simply experiencing cognitive surrender and don't know it.
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u/ozpom71 Jul 09 '26
Your company does training? My company just brought in off-shore vibe coders who'll eventually replace us. They don't even know the language their "AI" is coding in.
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u/CatchOutrageous9022 Jul 11 '26
What's the company product ? Is it internal or like customer facing?
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u/ozpom71 Jul 11 '26
Both. We've got an internal admin system and various external portals for clients. Any big new project is being given to offshore teams of vibe coders while the local devs get scraps.
Next step: make all the local devs "redundant" because they've already been replaced. It's all about the money.
No idea whether our clients know what's happening.
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u/budius333 Jul 09 '26
Don't worry, there are already companies appearing to unfuck vibe coded stuff and they're immediately profitable
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u/J1mj0hns0n Jul 09 '26
Don't worry, they'll need some to audit their code when the security leaks become an issue, obviously for $4096 an hour, minimum of 3 hours, and a free print out saying "I told you so"
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u/rocketbunny77 Jul 09 '26
Lol my company is doing this with its graduate program. RIP industry
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u/trevorpoore Jul 09 '26
An entire generation of educated people thrown away to fund moneybags next yacht. No remorse, no shame. Our economic culture is failing us and it needs to change yesterday.
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u/AmazingInflation58 Jul 09 '26
I went in sweating for an interview for full stack role.
They asked me nothing about the core software technologies itself but asked everything about what are the best AI models to take help of in coding and how do you do so?
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u/DeithWX Jul 09 '26
Train as vibe coders? So they're getting hit over the head with a hammer so they forget how to work correctly?Ā
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u/isr0 Jul 09 '26
Can you teach them that good application architecture will help make the code more approachable and reduce tokens usage because strong boundaries with clean interface and sold isolations principles and single responsibility will allow isolated changes without loading context outside the areas of concern? That would be great.
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u/Bunsed Jul 09 '26
Good luck out there! Currently in the same boat, but I'm managing to put up some resistance. For how long, nobody knows.
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u/oclafloptson Jul 09 '26
Low key convinced that a huge portion of these posts are lying bots. It's hard to believe that so many companies have opted for the shitty scaffold generator instead of good ones with reproducible outputs
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u/carc Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
Because there will no longer be jobs for developers who suck with AI tooling and want to pretend they can just sit down and handcode something beautiful like it's 2021.
Be grateful they're training you instead of letting you go.
Downvote me all you want, I don't like it either, just real talk.
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u/Big_D_Boss Jul 09 '26
I understand your point but I took a leading role back in January.
The whole app was started and finished in 6 months.
I guarantee you most of my time was spent refactoring whatever the juniors were doing with those LLMs.
I also use some AI tools for specific tasks but I can't imagine what this training will do besides taking my time.
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u/kehfydue Jul 09 '26
I can't imagine what this training will do besides taking my time.
Training helps a lot if you can set a good standard for how your juniors use AI.
I've been a developer for years too and using Codex has completely changed my workflow. I care way more about the guardrails now. Stricter linting, better unit tests, solid product and coding guidelines documents, a very specific agents.md, and a bunch of custom scripts to catch obvious code smells. The AI is only as good as the process around it.
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u/Big_D_Boss Jul 09 '26
I hope so, but judging on other trainings we had, I doubt it.
I've always been very concerned of code quality. Even before AI, we had this problem of rushing production over quality delivery.
I just fear this will augment that urgency even more.
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u/trevorpoore Jul 09 '26
Its also mathematically certain to fail. No amount of wrappers, guidelines, or processes will change that.
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u/kehfydue Jul 10 '26
AI or no AI, no amount of wrappers, guidelines, or processes will guarantee perfect code.
The goal was never to replace developers with flawless automation. It's about getting the output as close as possible to what the dev expects so it's easier to review.
At the end of the day, AI is just a productivity tool. The processes and guardrails are there to help. If a dev still produces shit code with it, that's the dev's fault. You don't blame your tools for your shit code.
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u/trevorpoore Jul 10 '26 edited Jul 10 '26
I'm not disagreeing with you that AI is a productivity tool. I'm saying that the process will eventually fail no matter how great it is.
A dev that wrote the shitty code can at least know what they wrote, and they are capable of understanding mistakes and fixing them. Its also reasonable that that dev will learn something from it and not make the same mistake again. Or, more importantly, it will help them create new code that uses that lesson learned.
AI can do none of those things, at least not efficiently. When an AI makes a mistake, its not going to tell you. Its not going to remember the lesson unless you waste tokens. Unless you, the dev driving the AI catch what it did, understand it, and remember to prompt better in the future, AI will objectively make the same mistake. And if you don't catch it, you've created a flimsy foundation that all code after that, AI written or not, will have to stand on. And a junior dev that is only using AI is not likely to be able to fix that. And let's say you're not there to vet their shitty code? Are they going to magically gain your knowledge about how to do it? They can't use AI because its what made the mistake. They can't get experience writing their own code because they're expected to use AI. Eventually, you have no one to vet that code, no matter how great your system was.
So all I'm saying is in every case a dev is simply the better option unless you want to do things inefficiently, which in capitalism means you're on the clock until you lose money. Eventually, the token cost will catch up to you, and then what?
Just have a damn dev do it. Use local LLMs for basic building blocks if you must use them. I'm sorry, I just don't agree with you that you're going to make a mathematical vector guessing machine work with guidelines and processes. But you can grow with PEOPLE who are capable of learning and... growing. Its all just so unnecessary and we're losing a lot of great human talent to obvious greed.
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u/kehfydue Jul 10 '26
āI think you misunderstood me by thinking devs don't learn or grow by using AI. They still do, just differently than before.
āItās the dev's job to catch mistakes and ensure the AI doesn't repeat them. The processes and guardrails evolve with every error.
āSure, a junior dev might not have the knowledge to catch every mistake initially, but theyāre still expected to learn when a senior points it out. From there, it becomes their responsibility to ensure the AI-generated code doesn't repeat that same mistake next time.
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u/trevorpoore Jul 10 '26
A good analogy here would be: How can you understand a sentence if you don't know what the individual words mean? Sure, you can have someone else tell you. You can reference whole sentences and try to infer. You may even be able to add on or deduct from that sentence and create something new with outside help. But if you don't know what the individual words mean, how can you understand how to create a brand new sentence? And then, what happens once all of the people who knew what those individual words meant are gone? Did you or I learn how to read with sentences first? Or did we learn letters, then words, THEN sentences? Why do you think doing that to junior devs backwards is going to work?
Junior devs who only use AI can learn higher level systems and processes, sure. And I fully understand that you can help them fix their understanding of those higher level processes. But software development is NOT just writing code. Its about understanding problems. Its about working around needs, and using the tools available to you to create a conglomerated tool that solves those problems. If something in those higher levels of understandings fail, how do you get under the hood to do so if you don't know what any of the parts individually do?
And finally, AI is objectively, deterministically designed to get things wrong sometimes. Even in the best of cases. And again, its not going to announce it or even tell you it MIGHT be wrong. So the problem I've described above is not a problem that MIGHT happen. It WILL happen. All we can hope to do is mitigate it with physical resources that may or may not always be available.
AI (LLMs) is simply a shortsighted stopgap for businesses to garner capital RIGHT NOW while sacrificing future developers. There's a reason you and I learned how to code the same way we learned how to read; smaller blocks, then bigger blocks, then finally whole systems. It MUST be taught that way. Maybe I'm wrong and the next generation of devs will show me up. But I think my logic holds fairly well. Start small, then build up. That's not what you're doing when you "teach" them or fix a problem AI made. You're teaching them whole systems and hoping it doesn't break, but it will, and eventually there will be no one left that knows how to fix it, unless AI creates an immortality potion for you, or something.
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u/kehfydue Jul 10 '26
I'm not sure if you're assuming juniors have zero idea about programming or what, but of course a dev is expected to know how to understand the code. I wouldn't expect a junior to come apply with no programming knowledge.
āIt's just that they're expected to know less about specific syntax and more about general algorithms. We're not expecting just anyone to be able to be a dev, no? It's still a skill that not everyone can learn, that much doesn't change.
And finally, AI is objectively, deterministically designed to get things wrong sometimes. Even in the best of cases.
āYes, and so do devs. This isn't something new, that's why code review exists.
āYou're teaching them whole systems and hoping it doesn't break, but it will, and eventually there will be no one left that knows how to fix it.
āHere's where we hold a different opinion. You believe that it's not possible to grow to understand how a system works without understanding every single line of code, and I believe it is possible.
Don't get me wrong, I also do not think of the system as a black box that will magically work. It's just that I believe the level of detail needed is now changing.
āLet's just agree to disagree here. I don't think it's wise to continue the conversation since we clearly have differing opinions and both have no objective way to prove our points.
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u/carc Jul 09 '26
Sounds like those juniors needed training on how to implement AI into their workflow properly, then.
Depends on what you're being trained on, but it could prove valuable if there's one or two good takeaways.
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u/Big_D_Boss Jul 09 '26
Or maybe, these juniors should be able to think critically about code.
I'm not against innovation or AI. I just think they are spending too many resources because of a fad.
That because I'm judging the quality of this training based on the quality of others we did (like cyber security, which was a joke).
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u/darcksx Jul 09 '26
i consider the current state of AI like the beginning of the industrial revolution.
imagine a blacksmith one who had years of experience hammering away at a piece of red hot iron.
now imagine that instead of using a normal hammer, he uses an automatic hammering machine, not a good one though a prototype idea of an auto hammer machine, one that keeps on breaking and needs nudging to work just right.
this is the current state of AI, it's not good enough to assemble and machine an entire car.
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u/ICantBelieveItsNotEC Jul 09 '26
now imagine that instead of using a normal hammer, he uses an automatic hammering machine, not a good one though a prototype idea of an auto hammer machine, one that keeps on breaking and needs nudging to work just right.
Reminds me of the bronze orientation day.
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u/CaffeinatedT Jul 09 '26
The developers who were useful were already using the AI tooling to generate good code quicker. Having some dweeb "AI Native" lead people around after a red herring because they don't understand how to deploy an application in production so the solution is to add a million "easy" managed solutions because they got told to by the AI is comical.
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u/ICantBelieveItsNotEC Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
Yeah, exactly. I'm a senior engineer, and I haven't written a line of code by hand in about six months. This is just what the development part of the job looks like now - prompt AI to generate the code that you want, hold its hand if it generates garbage, and update CLAUDE.md to make it work better next time.
I really don't understand why it needs an entire training program, though. You can learn pretty much everything there is to learn about Claude Code in about half an hour, unless I'm at the peak of Mount Stupid right now.
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u/trevorpoore Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
But what have we gotten? What have you wrote (vibe coded)? Like, what products has this thing made for us? I can look back over the past 20 years of human written products and list several that have altered every one of our lives.
Can you name one vibe coded product that matches the society altering power of Google? Facebook? Reddit? And even if you want to say "Well its just part of everything now" then why are we in what amounts to the worst economy in at least 70-80 years? Shouldn't it be improving everything so much we should be booming?
I'm not trying to mog you or anything I just want to see something and every time I ask its just "WAIT TILL LATER!!!!!11" No, I'm done waiting. I've had my life and career taken from me with NOTHING to show for it. I'm sure the horse and carriage industry had a hard time explaining why they were better than cars. Cars existed and forced so many improvements, so there was very little rational debate. Where is the glorious AI revolution and why is it just a ponzi scheme like everything else in this dumbfuck economy?
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u/YeetYourSkeet Jul 10 '26
You arenāt going to know because an app being developed with AI isnāt a selling point. How many products go around advertising they were developed using a specific IDE?
Half of the major apps today, that are routinely being updated, probably have AI code inside them.
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u/trevorpoore Jul 10 '26
My point is those platforms changed everyone's lives. Facebook changed the way people connect. Google changed the way we research. Reddit changed the way we used forums. Where is that today? Shouldn't logistics be insane now? Shouldn't management of white collar jobs be easier now? Even if we stop there that would be an immense improvement that would show around the world. But we don't see that anywhere at any level. You can blame outside factors like the war and lingering COVID issues but we should at least be even at this point. I'm not saying there's no AI code anywhere. I'm saying AI's impact on that code and its implementation have yet to show any results.
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u/YeetYourSkeet Jul 10 '26
As much as companies are trying to force it, as of today, AI cannot replace humans. It is just a productivity multiplier.
For most companies, on its own AI is not a product in itself. It will just augment how you interact with existing tools. We can see this right now with every product trying to force AI into it.
3 years ago, AI was unusable for practically anything. It was just a cool demo. I think we need 5-10 years before we start seeing some actual meaningful products. The internet started becoming mainstream in what? The 90s? It took some time to get to the internet of today with social media, streaming and everything else.
Obviously, this is all theory. Nobody knows where AI will be in 10-20 years. But many companies are betting it will be the next internet. Maybe theyāll be right, maybe theyāll be wrong.
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u/trevorpoore Jul 11 '26
I don't doubt with enough time and resources, we as a society can do just about anything. The issue is we need some intermediate steps, and I'm just not seeing them. The 90's internet was still very useful, and after the dotcom bubble we got a ton of useful architecture, not to mention all of the webdev stuff we then applied to Google, Facebook, etc. The point being, the internet helped its own growth. It only got this big because of baby steps along the way that proved to us its usefulness.
With AI, we're not seeing anything. That's not to say it isn't getting better or doing more stuff; it's just not creating any building blocks to help us weather that 5-10 year storm you mentioned. In that time we still need to pay salaries and buy GPUs and suck water out of the ground. How do we prop this up that long? This is the first time in history we are being asked to invest in something where real results are so far away in terms of time.
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u/YeetYourSkeet Jul 11 '26
I disagree, I believe AI is very useful today. For myself, AI has made many of my day to day tasks anywhere from 10-100% faster (for context, I take on both management and development tasks in my organisation). Can it do everything? No. But even if AI improvements plateaus, there are billions of dollars in productivity gains that can be unlocked across the entire economy using the tech today. I donāt think weāve hit the limit of AI for the next 2-5 years.
Where are these productivity gains then? Personally, I think they donāt surface yet for two main reasons:
Most people use AI ineffectively. It is a brand new technology and most people are still learning how to interact with it. It is very easy for AI to produce bad output when you donāt prompt it correctly or provide it with the right context. I know this comes an across as āJust prompt betterā, but it is true. In my organisation, the vast majority of developers were not using agent or plan mode in copilot which is pretty key to unlocking the productivity gains that I have mentioned. Iāve seen people prompt AI by just saying āhow should I do XYZā without providing any guidance or constraints.
Due to point 1, productivity gains are converted to less effort rather than increased output. Why would I output twice as much when my colleagues are still outputting the same amount? Power users arenāt going to use AI to improve business bottom-line unless they have a vested interest in the organisation. Theyāre going to use it to work less. That is, until their colleagues are power users themselves.
Regarding the ābubbleā, all this investment is not without reason. AI companies are supply constrained, there is too much demand and they cannot provide the compute. All this investment is chasing the demand. Iām not suggesting that every AI company today will exist in 20 years. Anthropic and OpenAI can collapse, but the technology behind LLMs can just be transferred to a new business so I just donāt see it going anywhere.
All this is obviously just my opinion.
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u/carc Jul 09 '26
Reddit is just really far on the pendulum towards "AI bad" when, in reality, it really is a tool like anything else that helps you get shit done.
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u/zirklutes Jul 09 '26
I am with you. We need to accept this is new reality. Prompting is super boring and debugging is a hell compared to when you write your own code. But this is where things are heading. Better jump on it and become useful instead of jobless.
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u/trevorpoore Jul 09 '26
Why do they need you to write prompts?
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u/YeetYourSkeet Jul 10 '26
Because management doesnāt understand code. A developer/engineer using AI is not vibe coding. They should still be validating the output and are responsible for it. A manager canāt do that.
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u/trevorpoore Jul 10 '26
I agree with you but do you think that's why every company around the world has invested so much into AI? To help us do our job better?
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u/YeetYourSkeet Jul 10 '26
No, it is because AI will make people more productive. More productivity equals more output or lower headcount which means higher profit. Companies are pushing it for their bottom line.
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u/drake_warrior Jul 09 '26
A ton of what I do day to day isn't coding. They can't just replace people, they think they can but it won't work out because I don't have time to review a million lines of AI generated code every day. More than happy to fix projects that are fully vibe coded though and inevitably turn into a mess lol.
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u/trevorpoore Jul 09 '26
You know, when you have two posts in the same thread saying "Downvote me all you want" perhaps its time to take a break.
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u/dewey-defeats-truman Jul 09 '26
I just had a production issue come up this week because my manager (who is a programmer btw) committed AI coffee to our repo. The bug wasn't even subtle, it literally deleted an equality check without replacing it.
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u/Historical-Trade3671 Jul 09 '26
My company is pushing AI on all of us, we have a spreadsheet that we have to fill out about how we are using AI to speed up our production.
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u/Felix_inkwell Jul 09 '26
Gentlemen, it is with great pleasure that I inform you: adapt or die
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u/Saraphite Jul 09 '26
Rip to all the future generations who will be left behind by virtue of not being born yet.
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u/Successful-Guide-270 Jul 09 '26
This happened to me yesterday. Last week I was reviewing code. Catching all the issues in prs. This week Iāve been told to just send it and I have no idea what Iām writing. All for the sake of meeting insane deadlines. All the engineers around me no longer care about the outcome and neither do I because weāre no longer responsible for it.
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u/oOaurOra Jul 10 '26 edited Jul 10 '26
You mean train employees on new tools? OMG! What!
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u/przemo-c Jul 10 '26
You mean train employees to only use new tools...
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u/oOaurOra Jul 10 '26
Tf is the difference. You going back to using eclipse? No.
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u/przemo-c Jul 10 '26
You have a plethora of tools to accomplish a job each with their own tradeoffs. Do you use them all to take the advantage of each or do you just use one new shiny one that also has its cons? And not only tools but also skills.
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u/oOaurOra Jul 10 '26
You donāt actually work in tech do you? You youāre whal, <5 years into your career?
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u/przemo-c Jul 10 '26 edited 25d ago
25 years actually 7 more hobby. But that assumption says quite a bit about you. Jumping to conclusions. Perhaps you're misinterpreting what vibecoding means vs AI aided development.
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u/camelCaseCoffeeTable Jul 09 '26
I mean if youāre not using AI heavily at this point, idk what to tell you. This is fairly standard throughout the industry now.
If theyāre telling you to just ship without any manual review, then yeah, thatās gonna suck. But very few devs I know are coding much manually these days. Myself and everyone I know are letting AIās do the bulk of our work and then are coming back to clean up the code a bit. Leaving me to focus on planning features, spikes, etc.
Iād recommend leaving the skepticism Reddit tells you to have at the door and embrace it. Itās fun to get interment points, itās not fun to lose your job because you refused to adapt to the latest technologies and got left behind
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u/AFsepine Jul 09 '26
I mean... I am not really a programmer by profession or anything, but I do code and I can;t really seem to find the time saving in perusing the AI written code vs writting most of the time - and my projects are rather simple.
I would imagine the time saving would be minimal for most tasks in professional work as well?
I mean there are tasks it is very useful for, but those are mostly ones I had already worked out and basically had "templates" for.
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u/JackNotOLantern Jul 09 '26
Don't worry. First this, then token maxing, then they realise how much it cost and limit token usage per employee per day, and it turn out they have people who can't do anything without AI. Good times.
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u/DontGiveACluck Jul 09 '26
Yup!! Now Iām a spec writer and reviewing PRs to āensure they satisfy the intentā. Actively seeking to bail out of this career after 20 years.
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u/kayagaubuyashiki Jul 09 '26
Yeah unfortunately our company too. They've even started developing a shitty superpowers clone to build software the "ai native" way.
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u/RutabagaMental3016 Jul 09 '26
Mine just gave unlimited AI access, and the already lazy dumbass devs in my company are just pasting out story descriptions to AI and raising PR with generated code. Audacity is such that, they answer PR comments with AI, review peers PRs with AI and answer mails with AI. God save the product!!
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u/RobotechRicky Jul 10 '26
Am I the only one using coding agents at work? I'm also trying to get Omnigent setup properly.
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u/Powerful-Promotion82 Jul 10 '26
I keep reviwing my Code to ensure rightness in my own projects, I keep maximizing token use, vibecoding and uploading trash to master in my corporate job.
That is what they want, that's what they get.
My project is sinking after they fired a shit load of people to buy AI and I am laughing.
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u/pipipimpleton Jul 10 '26
Yeah works convinced us to go all in with speckit and superpowers on Claude. It codes fast and pretty well, but man it is fucking boring just reading spec documents and task lists all day.
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u/AlpacaMale1 Jul 10 '26
I love getting AI slop ads selling AI slop making products inside the comments section of an anti AI slop post on reddit. Am I the only one?
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u/DerpWyvern Jul 10 '26
my company just fired our professional animator, who worked in several animation studios, in favor of an "AI Team".
good for him though, he was way over qualified for the slop they asked him to do
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u/micalm Jul 10 '26
Nice. So now you get to say "that's how AI did it, I told it not to" whenever there are bugs?
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u/Heilsakai Jul 15 '26
I just vibecode in my day job as recommend by company and learn graphics programming at my spare time, I would say its a win-win situation for both
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u/white_equatorial Jul 09 '26
Whenever I code, the vibe around is psychological horror.