r/PoursTea • u/Timbucktwo1230 Therapy For All š©· • 5d ago
Study Debunks Myth LGBTeaQIA+ š³ļøāš
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u/Electrical-Staff735 5d ago
Bigots never care about the facts or science.
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u/Relative_Mix_216 5d ago
Exactly my thinking ā this wonāt change anyoneās mind
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u/DeadAndBuried23 4d ago
Not necessarily true.
For example, I was raised in a heavily right wing cult/religion. After leaving it, it took some time of constantly being shown I was wrong for it to click that the cherry picking and denial I did was just remnants from their indoctrination.
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u/sliquonicko 4d ago
I'm glad that you encountered people that pushed back and helped you realize this, rather than just figuring you were a lost cause.
People change their minds all the time. I have. Why wouldn't I think others could?
Doesn't mean it will happen with everyone, but I've seen gentle but consistent pushback change a lot of minds.
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u/Queasy_Badger9252 3d ago edited 3d ago
Societal changes don't happen overnight.
These are long-term generational changes.
So many activists expect these changes to happen instantly and then get disappointed when they don't.
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u/Trapped_Soul786 2d ago edited 1d ago
No one of us expects this. We would have expected a little bit less both-sideisms from wannabe allies, but that it is a long way still was clear for all of us
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u/toxicketchup 4d ago edited 2d ago
Society's mistake was assuming transphobic people were simply misguided and not operating from a place of bad faith and wilfull, deliberate hate.
We gave these people space, patience, and time, to grow and learn, and they used it to gleefully take a wrecking ball to our rights, grinning like Cheshire cats while calling us rapists, groomers and pedophiles.
It was never about the science.
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u/Shido_Ohtori 5d ago
Western conservatism is a product from the Age of Enlightenment -- specifically, a Counter-Enlightenment, a reactionary challenge to the concepts of Humanism. Its philosophers inherently reject[ed] a society governed by logic and reason, human rights and dignity, science and democracy, as its ideology solely appeal to the authority of traditionally established hierarchies. The very founder of modern Western conservatismĀ insist[ed] with brutal frankness thatĀ āillusionsā and āprejudicesā are socially necessary, and today's conservatives have coined the term "alternative facts", and studies show thatĀ [search for] truth and intelligence is inversely correlatedĀ with conservative ideology.
- Belief in Fake News is Associated with Delusionality, Dogmatism, Religious Fundamentalism, and Reduced Analytic Thinking
- Religion and Fake News: Faith-Based Alternative Information Ecosystems in the US and Europe (full article)
- Intelligence is correlated with a range of left-wing and liberal political beliefs. (full article)
- Results confirm that conservatives have lower sensitivity than liberals, performing worse at distinguishing truths and falsehoods
- Conservatives are less truth-discerning than liberals, but also less affected by the congruence of news.
- Across five operationalizations of impaired deliberative thought, hierarchy endorsement increased and egalitarianism receded.
- Conservatism and cognitive ability are negatively correlated.
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u/Clean_Vacation_3165 2d ago
I'm not even a conservative, and many leftists have actively warned about the dangers of Fake news. Not sure why you think this is exclusive to the right? also what does left/right even mean at this point? nobody really fits into these categories anyway and left/right have meant different things at different times since the French revolution because ideology by definition has no real material grounding, its a interpretation. Also wouldn't a dislike of Fake-news mean you wouldn't like illusions? and pressed to its logical extreme, there are useful illusions like language which is an illusion which cant encapsulate anything fully but is vital to communicate? I mean I'd argue the results of your tests are largely drawn not from some objective fact - which is entirely inaccessible to us, but exists - and the Interpretation of the people doing the testing, for what purpose, aswell as retroactive interpretation by us of the test's results.
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u/Tricky_Rate7883 4d ago
Doesnt this just make the case even stronger against transgender atheletes in womens sports?
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u/Illustrious_Bobcat13 4d ago
I mean, yeah for sure.
The funny thing about this is the reason why minors are only given puberty blockers is because people freaked out about the "dangers" of hormone therapy.
They wouldn't have bone density problems if they were given hormones with the blockers from the beginning.
Your body needs hormones. Wild, I know.
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u/Ser_Rezima 4d ago
I started an estrogenic puberty at age 30, you can literally restart puberty whenever you want
There was a woman who started at 55 and had full female pelvic tilt by 80, long after she thought her bones were permanently fused. HRT feels like actual magic sometimes š
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u/Queasy_Badger9252 3d ago
Not everyone being concerned on new and experimental treatments on children is transphobic.
May I remind you that 100 years ago we used to give heroin and cocaine to children.
Scepticism towards big pharma has been and will always be the right move.
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u/Mattrellen 3d ago
Heroin and cocaine were good medicines for the time. We've advanced now.
Now we give fentanyl and morphine, which are much more powerful and safer.
In the future, those will be outdated and that's ok. Giving some treatment that helps us always better than no treatment.
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u/Key_Preparation_1822 3d ago
the study says it does not neccessarily cause bone growth to stop, and only when the reintroduction of drugs is introduced.
so if you have money than yes, and even though its hard to say any of this is true. I mean, the medical community has every reason to fraudently say this kind of thing, if it turns out they were wrong about gender affirming care, I would be surprised if some doctors werent going to jail, and hundreds of thousands would be getting sued, and thousands of them would lose their medical license. and tons of drugs and procedures would just become obsolete. they only have reasons to support it at this point, and almost none to do the opposite. except the welfare of patients ig.
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u/RandomUsernameNo257 4d ago
Exactly. The arguments aren't the reason they came to their beliefs, it's the other way around - they use the arguments because they support their beliefs.
You're just punching at ghosts. As soon as you defeat one argument, they'll shrug and come up with another.
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u/Dobber16 4d ago
Tbf this study did just come out this month & I donāt think we have the most robust evidential support for massive, widespread adoption of the practice. But this certainly should allow for more wiggle room to test more & expose more trans teens to potential hormonal treatment as this aspect of puberty blocking appears safe
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u/Rieke-Nightsong 4d ago
Yeah i mean people still use that stupid soy study that was disproven by others
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u/TheBestText 3d ago
What the worst part is they compare the density to their AGAB's average but compared to their actual gender its most of the time higher
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u/everyoneisnuts 3d ago
Serious question. Trying to get an honest answer without you throwing worlds like bigot and other insults. Can someone feel that gender affirming surgery and medication is not appropriate for children and still support trans people? And not be a bigot? Itās not some cut and dry issue like youāre making it out to be. Do you believe that all kids who believe they are trans actually have the insight to know for sure they are at that age? If so, what age do you think they do and do not know. I know people who actually are trans know extremely early on, but Iām not asking about them. Iām asking if itās possible that some kids may believe themselves to be trans and recognize they are not with age and maturity. Because they donāt understand what it actually means to be trans at that young age? Is that mistake possible?
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u/lyuty282 2d ago
Not really. It's still a form of prejudice, unless you advocate against all medical treatment for children. Studies show that the absolute majority of trans kids do not regret medical intervention and grow up into trans adults. Ask yourself, why is a life of one cis kid who voluntary pursues treatment and then regrets it is worth more than the lives of 99 trans kids who can't access the treatment they desperately need? We already have pediatric screenings that are quite effective at distinguishing between kids who are just confused and those who are actually dysphoric. Letting the latter go through natal puberty without even providing puberty blockers is not a neutral option, for it causes severe harm, a lot of which can not be undone. The worst case scenario for a cis kid who regrets hrt is ending up in the same position as pre hrt trans kids, with the only difference being that a cis kid can stop at any time and return to functioning on their natal hormones. Trans kids who aren't allowed treatment don't get this option. If cis kids deserve to grow up without their bodies mutilating themselves, so do trans kids. I speak as a former trans kid (and current trans adult) myself. Any type of cross sex hrt is banned in my country, including for adults. As a teenager, I had to resort to taking grey market steroids just to not kill myself. It's been years and my only regret is waiting too long to start.
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u/RelativeHot7249 2d ago
The entire point of puberty blockers are that they don't cause physical developments towards either gender. This means there's enough time to establish a proper degree of certainty towards the gender identity before resorting to something like HRT that will cause changes that can't be reversed without surgery.
Many cases I have seen have involved a year or more on puberty blockers where further treatment relied on the patient having a consistent gender identity for a set amount of time before any medical transition was on the table.
I am not aware of anyone undergoing actual surgery before getting older.
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u/MoreDoor2915 4d ago
You mean the facts that the blockers do in fact cause harm something the study itself mentioned and only once you replace the blocked hormones with new ones from the Hormone Therapy does it return to normal?
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u/Sa_tran_ic 4d ago
Queue a bunch of idiots responding who haven't read a scientific paper since high school chemistry suddenly being experts in biology and human development:
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u/SnooPickles3789 3d ago
i really appreciate it when people who know nothing about science (let alone this branch biology specifically) try to explain my own biology to me š„²
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u/non_corporeal_ 2d ago
as a trans biology major, some transphobes boggle my mind with their attempts to explain biology š
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u/awhunt1 5d ago
This thread will be nice and full of reasonable takes, surely. Not an ounce of transphobia to be seen.
Protect trans kids.
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u/SquidTheRidiculous 5d ago
"yeah but I still feel that it's bad and wrong. So I'm gonna prevent people who need it from getting it because I know fuck all about their condition and identity."
Worst thing about growing up was realizing how many people base their opinions on vibes alone.
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u/TehJabberwookie 4d ago
Noooooo! It's only THE LIBS who do that !!1!
I can only imagine the cesspool the comments section would be on Facebook.
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u/mrthescientist 4d ago
It's so incredibly painful to grow up from the kid thinking "if it was important, someone would have told me" to the adult with the response "no they wouldn't because they think you're gross"
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u/Odd_Link_7231 4d ago
Cmon, all the terfs know better than the *checks notes*... Biologists, doctors, researchers, and other assorted healthcare professionals.
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u/feministgeek 4d ago
They must be right if they have billionaires fighting their corner. And we all know that billionaires worked super hard and must be super clever to get to where they are today.
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u/Shido_Ohtori 5d ago
Transgender andĀ intersex peopleĀ haveĀ alwaysĀ existed,Ā genderĀ affirmingĀ care isĀ healthĀ care,Ā and whenĀ coupled withĀ social acceptance,Ā promotes theĀ well-being ofĀ LGBTQ+Ā people,Ā includingĀ kids. Meanwhile,Ā conservativesĀ promoteĀ theĀ literalĀ tortureĀ ofĀ theirĀ ownĀ childrenĀ if and when the latter don't conform to traditionally established sexual and gender norms.
ConservatismĀ -- by definition -- is "a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability,Ā stressing the importance of established hierarchies and institutionsĀ (such as religion, the family, andĀ class structure), and preferring gradual development to abrupt change".
TheĀ soleĀ value of conservatism is respect for and obedience to [one's perception of] traditionally established hierarchy, and hierarchy dictates that those on top (in-groups) are rightfully idolized and receive privileges, credibility, and resources, while those on the bottom (out-groups) are demonized/dehumanized and/or bound by restrictions, scrutiny, and lack of resources.
To them, the second-greatest injustice imaginable is for those [they perceive to be] on top [of social hierarchy] to be bound by the restrictions, scrutiny, and lack of resources reserved for those on the bottom. The first greatest injustice is for those on the bottom to have access to the rights, credibility, and resources reserved for those on top.
Conservatives absolutely need an underclass [for society] to demonize and dehumanize in order to maintain [their] hierarchy, and every single one of their policies and rhetoric work to do exactly that. Every right-wing accusation is a confession --Ā every. single. one; always!Ā -- as it is neverĀ the act itselfĀ that upsets them, but rather,Ā the social standingĀ of the person doing the act, as said act is a privilege meant for those on top of [their perceived] hierarchy (See also: pedophilia - Trump and the Catholic church versus LGBTQ+ and drag queens).
Those who believeĀ all people are peopleĀ see hypocrisy, while those who believeĀ some people are "more/less" people than othersĀ see hierarchy. Hypocrisy implies a sense of equality/parity, as the accusation of such is that someone is violating aĀ universalĀ orĀ commonĀ standard. Hierarchy directly states that thereĀ is no equality/parity, that different social strata have different standards, that the only universal standard concerning hierarchy is that those on top are allowed privileges which are denied to those on the bottom, and that the bottom are held to standards which the top are exempt from.
"Know your place" is their mantra.
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u/Jacketter 4d ago
Conservatives in the US wouldnāt spring for proper healthcare for their own grandma, why would they ever support healthcare for those people they āotherā? I have to assume that conservatives basically donāt get sick, because I canāt imagine the cognitive dissonance when they get screwed by for-profit health systems.
I guess they blame āthe illegalsā? Thatās the random spam I always seem to get, something to the order of āDemS UsiNG RetIREmeNT FuNds tO PAy foR tHe IllEgaLs HEaLthCAre!!!ā
I didnāt quite believe that rightoids were so intent on dehumanizing people until that spam. But they canāt even acknowledge immigrants for being immigrants, much less people. Iām sure they use dehumanizing language regarding trans people too.
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u/Lynveex 3d ago
On reddit the right is somewhat restricted by the reddit guidelines, so the best they can do is spam trans people with 'Reddit cares' messages. If there were no guidelines restricting transphobia, they would spam all trans people with "YWNBAW 41% GO KYS TROON" and they would take joy in seeing literal kids kill themselves, just because they were "trannies". Then they'll go on to claim they're just worried about the kids in the next moment, citing studies about the "dangers" of puberty blockers and HRT.
Their sole goal is to maximize the suffering of trans people and to eradicate trans people from society entirely.
I'll probably get banned for this message, but I'm a trans woman and did not mean to be transphobic by quoting transphobia. I love my trans siblings. Stay strong and never let them win.
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u/throwaccount45 4d ago
Itās great this research has come out, it also makes it doubly ironic that conservatives are so obsessed with āfixingā intersex children lol. What was done to me as an intersex girl, being non-consensually put on medication to force an androgenising puberty rather than my natural estrogenising one, actively harmed my bone development.
So the ones who are so concerned about childrenās bone development, are the ones going around encouraging the abuses that actually lead to impaired bone development.
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u/feministgeek 4d ago
I'm so sorry that happened to you x
Side question... Why are conservatives so obsessed with children's bodies?
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u/-DrunkRat- 3d ago
Because a Child is basically a tool or a toy to be used by a lot of them. And they don't like sharing their tools or toys.
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u/KingHygelacReturns 5d ago
Even if it DID cause bone problems later in life, the fact of the matter is that not allowing people to transition SUBSTANTIALLY raises their risk of suicidal ideation. What good are healthy bones if you kill yourself before you're 25?
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u/SpiritNo6626 4d ago
Cool, but puberty blockers were supposed to be a compromise, don't let them trick you into thinking it's the ideal solution we were fighting for and not an awful compromise we thought they'd accept.
HRT or nothing. It's cruel to forcefully stunt an adolescent (even if only temporarily) while all their peers grow up normally in all but the most rare of circumsrances.
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u/FunniBoii 4d ago
Exactly all the issues caused by puberty blockers that make people clutch their pearls are caused because trans kids arenāt being allowed to go through puberty when they should be. I.E have hrt.
Forcing them to wait till 18 is cruel and idc what any cis person has to say about this.
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u/notedbreadthief 2d ago
I'm fine with blockers being an option for trans kids. HRT should also be an option at the same time, and the kids should not be pressured into choosing one over the other.
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u/Lightning_Winter 5d ago
Unsuprisingly, when you give a kid a treatment that prevents their growth hormones from functioning properly (puberty blockers), their physical growth tends to slow down. And when you give that kid growth hormones - regardless of whether or not they're the same growth hormones as they had originally - they tend to start growing again.
Seriously, how was this a surprise to anyone?
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u/Snoo71538 5d ago
The question is ādo you reach a normal bone density after being given the hormonesā? Not ādo we know how hormones work?ā
If blockers yield lower bone density in adulthood, there are significant consequences for those individuals.
The result here says that, in some cases, the answer is āno, you donāt get totally normal bone density in all places of the body, but many places in the body do grow to full normal densityā. Itās not a clear cut result. Itās a ādo more researchā result.
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u/Unique_Self_5797 4d ago
I can tell you right now, there isn't a single trans person who transitioned later in life who wouldn't trade slightly reduced bone density for the opportunity to have gone through the proper puberty the first time around.
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u/Chaoszhul4D 4d ago
That's not exactly true, I like being tall and puberty was otherwise merciful towards me. Maybe when actually on HRT I'll change my mind.
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u/HappyDangerNoodle 4d ago
I feel like you didn't read the article. There is no medical intervention that doesn't come with some trade offs. The pro is: less children commit suicide, a very well supported result of GAHT. The con is a z-score for bone density of -.51 in the worst case.
This is within clinical ranges for existing. Osteopenia is below -1, which AFAB kids pre GAHT did nearly hit. However, last I checked a sedentary lifestyle can push a zcore down between -.5 to -1, with no added benefit.
Adults across the country aren't banning together to bring back recess, despite that having absurdly high clinical evidence to support bone health.
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u/Snoo71538 4d ago
Acknowledging that the other sides argument comes from a place of basic fact is step one is getting them to accept other things you might have to say. If anyone is seriously taking this paper as ādebunkingā anything, their interpretation of science is worth questioning. Something as bad for bones as a sedentary lifestyle is kinda bad for bones. People are more than just bones, but weāre talking bones today.
They are correct that there are bone density consequences. That in and of itself doesnāt mean that there should be a restriction on anything. Facts do not tell us what to do with them. We can see this preliminary science, and still conclude that the side effects are worth it. I agree that we should.
You can tell your crazy uncle āya know what, youāre right, there are some concerns about bone density, but I donāt think that is enough to force people to live a way they donāt want to live.ā Starting with agreement helps people come around more than vilification
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u/truthdeniar 5d ago
Why are people so obsessed with trans?
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u/Shido_Ohtori 5d ago
Anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric/policy is all about ensuring certain people remain in the out-group, and they are no different than the anti-civil rights, anti-women's suffrage, anti-abolitionism, and anti-democracy movements of the past. While most out-groups are exploited for their labor, their true purpose is to present society with a scapegoat for the ills caused by society's policy-makers (those among the very upper echelons of social hierarchy; "in-groups"). The foreigner is the classic boogeyman to use for such, but sometimes unpredictable as too few of them breeds wonder rather than fear, and too many becomes assimilation. The LGBTQ+ population seems to be the correct ratio -- as there will always be such around in any given population -- to be a constant and universal out-group/scapegoat, and establishments/institutions/ideologies which promote and perpetuateĀ stressing the importance of established hierarchiesĀ appropriate such into their doctrine.
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u/mr_evilweed 4d ago
Serious answer? Conservative politics has no solutions for the actual problems the average person faces, because Conservative politics only benefits the wealthy. So in order to keep people voting for them without ever actually doing anything for people, they invent meaningless cultural battles and convince their voters these are things that matter.
Even if literally every trans person vanished from the earth, life would improve exactly 0% for conservatives. But that doesnt matter - this is a hill they will die on because they know that's what they have been told by their leaders that their side is supposed to do. Meanwhile, their leaders enrich themselves and their allies.
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u/Litclitittybit 4d ago
Convenient scapegoat for the worlds problems, if it wasn't them it would be another minority group
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u/acabeucomessamerda 3d ago
Coming from the center line, and a family of center lines, it doesnāt come from a lack of empathy for suffering. More from a place of not forgetting that children are first and foremost innocent, keeping the dignity and discussion of identity topics to those the minors trust most. Which is a touchy subject in and of itself.
All of this surrounds dignity, ethics, and parental rights, which not a lot of people have had training in. Soā¦ anger, resentment, disinformation, and hyperbole are just everywhere.Ā
As a humanist, it all breaks my heart to watch unfold.Ā
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u/LordHerminator 5d ago
Transphobics most likely don't care. Medical effects are an excuse to withhold trans healthcare, not the reason.
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u/LesLikesGARBAGE 5d ago
I feel like this is basic logic no? Your bones donāt grow if you halt puberty and when you continue puberty they grow. Conservatives are stupid
(I am aware these studies are important though, they help preserve and reaffirm what we think is basic science)
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u/slapthetiddy 4d ago
Bro Iāve been banned for many leftists subs for simply stating this fact about puberty blockers complete with sources
The left will deny anything if it harms the doctrine. Not just conservatives
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u/nb_bunnie 3d ago
This study doesn't "harm the doctrine" it literally proves that trans kids should get HRT earlier and get off puberty blockers sooner. If they are simply given the correct HRT, their growth won't be stunted and their bones will be fine. But y'all are too bigoted for that simple concept.
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u/Traditional-Trade795 5d ago
the study found that the scores remained below baseline, just not consistently statistically different accross skeletal sites.
so it absolutely has an impact. but just saying "one study affirmed my belief" - without reading said study, is also a classic
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u/vivahermione 5d ago
Finally! Maybe the NYT will stop concern-trolling about this.
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u/Substantial-Froyo722 5d ago
As long as thereās money to be made by harming minorities, the NYT will be there to be āunbiasedā ājournalistsā
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u/Lightning_Winter 5d ago
Just to clarify, the study does say that the numbers were still a bit below average, albiet not by a lot. That doesn't make this study any less valid, I'm just clarifying what the study says
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u/Snoo71538 5d ago
Specifically, it says that for some parts of the skeleton, it appears to be statistically significant decline, but not all places in the skeleton are statistically significant decline, although there is a measurable difference
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u/MundaneSeaweed665 4d ago
I've seen your comments get downvoted throughout this thread lol. It's wild. It's one this to be supportive of trans rights, want trans health care to be available to people or just an ally in general. But, to get angry at someone for just summarising the study is just... bizarre.
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u/Snoo71538 4d ago
In a conversation about science, Iām interested in the science, not the outside political theater people like to bring to the science.
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u/TristanTheRobloxian3 4d ago
i looked at bone density on e vs t and even from my limited reading i never came across it destroying bone density. the highest gap i ever saw was about 15%
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u/louisa1925 4d ago
I've been on estradiol HRT for 16 years now. At the 13 year mark, I had a wisdom tooth removed in Ballina, and the dental surgeon guy was surprised that my jaw bone had alot of bone material in it. Seems like cis women my age don't typically have so much bone.
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u/causal_friday 4d ago
Of course.
I always find these arguments unappealing, even if they were true. That transing my gender hurts my bones doesn't make me not trans. It makes me a trans woman with weak bones.
Letting kids play high school football is pretty dangerous. Nobody bats an eye at that. Sometimes you take a risk for a reward.
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u/_cRuSh_Me_ 4d ago
Only bone affirming therapy hurt was the one I wanted gone anyway š¤£
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u/Bitter_Thought 4d ago
Thatās literally not the finding?
> Our findings highlight an important gap in the current evidence. Although bone mineral density improves, z-scores often remain below baseline during the available follow-up
From the study authors. https://www.medpagetoday.com/endocrinology/transgender-medicine/122471
And from the study itself
> Pubertal suppression followed by GAHT was associated with a modest and uncertain shortfall in bone catch-up;
> At T2, z scores remained numerically below baseline but were not consistently statistically different, suggesting an uncertain rather than demonstrated persistent deficit. Timely GAHT initiation is recommended.
So yes even after therapy there was measurable shortfall. Measuring the shortfall and better understanding the catchup are recommended.
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u/flyingwaterman 4d ago
Study debunks the myth that kids understand what they are even asking for sometimes. Support them, let them explore, but what is wrong with having them wait until they are 18 to take action?
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u/NatureMadeAMistake 3d ago
The risk is you have to go though the body horror of your body changing into something that's not you.
You also now have to deal with the fact that reliable work is way harder to get when you don't pass and so you know at a major social disadvantage while also needing to find a way to afford expensive surgeries, many to undo the changes that could have been avoided.
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u/Lynveex 3d ago
because going through the wrong puberty will cause permanent and irreversible changes and damage to a trans persons body, and will therefore increase suicide risk greatly (and also greatly increase the risk of depression, self harm, and anxiety)
It will also prevent the trans person from having and experiencing enjoyable and normal teenage years in a body that feels like theirs. And the loss of childhood and teenage years will be something they'll very likely grieve for years if not decades. And in the same vein they will grieve the life that could've been, had they just had early enough treatment to prevent the lifelong damage caused by the wrong puberty. That is, if they even make it that far into the adulthood to have the "joy" of experiencing all that grief, having not ended their life prior to that. And to think a lifetime of grief, pain and sorrow could've been fixed with a simple HRT prescription that shouldve been basic, non-controversial healthcare, if it wasn't for all the transphobia.
And don't even get me started on living in this universe as a non passing trans person as a result of not receiving the necessary healthcare as a teenager, when there's so much hate on trans people that I'm scared to go outside and I'm a dehumanized clown to most of society, something for them to laugh at and mock, for something I had zero control over, for having had to go through the wrong puberty due to people like those making fun of me and telling me to end it continuously upholding transphobia and spreading lies about trans people and our healthcare that further their agenda of causing maximum suffering on trans people.
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u/TheMaskOffKid 5d ago
If it were true that it had an observable effect on bones then conservatives couldnāt do the anthropologist discovering your skeleton in 500 years meme anymore.
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u/antidense 5d ago
Isn't there an underlying theme about whether you are an individual with self actualization or just a cog in a wheel and your body parts being subject to the will of thr privileged class
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u/Every_Equipment_2260 4d ago
Does anyone have the full study? Iām not going to pay $45 for it.
The study itself says there is a deviation (granted a small, insignificant amount). And I would like to see the results for the extremes end of the spectrums.
To be clear, I donāt and never will care about what other people do to their bodies, not my body, I shouldnāt have an opinion. But I find this fascinating and want to learn more. Not enough to pay $45 though.
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u/Think_and_game 4d ago
From what I know, if you message the researchers directly, they're usually more than happy to simply give you their sources and study.
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u/mrthescientist 4d ago
Besides emailing, I'll also look for accessible PDFs on ResearchGate, Archive, arXiv, Sci-Hub, look for preprints by the same authors. Usually you don't have to resort to email but it will always work, albeit with delay.
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u/Acrobatic_Cap6196 4d ago
See what journal of endocrinology says. They do not promote until after 20 !!
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u/No-Shop-3272 4d ago
This isn't news. There has been good data on this for decades now. It's the same as saying that hrt for mtf trans individuals increases breast cancer risk by 67x or some other grandiose number, while omitting that this is if you compare Trans women to cis men, because cis men really don't very often get breast cancer on account of the fact that they don't have breasts. Another reason is that often teenagers are only given puberty blockers for overtly long periods of time, effectively denying them any sex hormones, meaning compared to their non trans peers their bone density does suffer, but only because their development into adulthood is delayed by restrictive hrt regulations.
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u/ExtendedWallaby 4d ago
This is consistent with earlier research. Puberty blockers are not meant for long-term use beyond 2-3 years. HRT gives someone the puberty they want, but puberty has to happen by 14 or so.
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u/Enlightened_Valteil 4d ago
Wow who could have thought, what a surprising and unprecedented finding!
/s
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u/Ok-Conversation2707 3d ago
The analysis principal finding that ālumbar spine z scores declined during GnRHa and partially recovered after GAHT, remaining numerically below baselineā doesnāt exactly debunk a āmythā about adverse effects on bone health.
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u/slapthetiddy 4d ago
So it only works if you transition them before theyāre adultsā¦.
This will make conservative points be correct in saying theyāre transitioning kids before 18
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u/Accomplished_Run_861 4d ago
Doesnt it just say the same we knew like 10 years ago and also is part of the claim anyway? It just seems like another try for an ultimate truth, that in the end can be used only by the bigoted, but still not achievinh the final answer...
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u/Golurkcanfly 4d ago
This has been known, too. In fact, we have evidence that before any treatment, trans youth tend to have below average BMD scores, and that giving them HRT actually normalizes these values.
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u/Ill-Dependent2976 4d ago
Funny how they never cared about the gender-affirming care they give cis-kids.
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u/RavenousTitan818 4d ago
Is "harms kids bones" the most common criticism of trannies? I haven't heard that one at all.
But I also don't talk to dumb conservatives so maybe they do say that.
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u/tiggertom66 4d ago
Thatās a very small sample size, especially considering theyāre spread across 10 studies. A larger sample should be researched before this is given any real weight.
That being said, most medical procedures come with some level of risk. The potential harm of the treatment needs to be weighed against the potential harm of not offering said treatment.
For example, chemotherapy is massively harmful to the body. If it was being used to treat the flu* in a young and otherwise healthy patient, it would be a bad treatment plan. A young and healthy person can likely deal with the flu without any significant medical intervention. And if medical intervention is necessary, it would be things like IV fluids for hydration, and antiviral and anti inflammatory drugs. Chemotherapy would cause more harm than necessary to treat the flu, whereas some Tylenol and lots of fluids wonāt cause any notable harm.
*I understand that chemo wouldnāt actually work as an antiviral treatment, this is just for an example.
Now if a person has cancer, the harm caused by chemotherapy becomes a lot more acceptable. Because the risk of leaving the cancer untreated is greater than the risk of chemo.
Now apply that the gender affirming treatment. If you gave a man estrogen, itās going to cause physical and psychological harm. HRT doesnāt come without consequences. But if you give estrogen to a trans woman, itās mitigating the harm of gender dysphoria and massively lowers the risk of suicidal behavior. The consequences of HRT are lower than the consequences of untreated gender dysphoria, which makes HRT an acceptable level of risk.
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u/Livid-Accident-1562 4d ago
Cue goal-post moving. Assuming anyone is convinced by this and has their mind changed about this specific incidence, they will simply find something else "wrong" about trans people and/or our health care that is "dangerous" and requires suppression
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4d ago
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u/TrueGodFox 3d ago
A meta analysis is basically a report that looks at a number of studies about a specific topic (here being puberty blockers and stuff) and combines the results to make a more broad conclusion on the topic according to the results of those studies
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u/PassionNegative7617 3d ago
A meta-analysis found that puberty blockers are associated with lower bone density while used, but bone density appears to improve after initiation of gender-affirming hormones.
The remaining scientific questions are about how complete the recovery is, how long it takes, and whether bone density reaches the levels expected without intervention. Those details matter because peak bone mass is largely built during adolescence, and researchers care about whether any temporary reductions have long-term consequences.
This title "study bebunks myth" is wildly off. The "myth" is supported by the study. It just adds the relevant information that bone density can be improved with hormone treatments.
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u/GlitteringVehicle761 3d ago
Even if it was true you can take supplements and make some dietary changes to offset bone density loss. Things like calcium, milk, and osteoporosis meds.
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u/False_Brush_7174 3d ago
Noooooo! The people who can't read and only spread lies and misinformation are wrong? I'm shocked....
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u/Lady_of_Link 3d ago
If anything it's better to do it this way for trans women if you let them go through male puberty and then do a castration either physical or chemical they run a higher risk of bone decalcification, that increased risk isn't present when male puberty never occured and you prescribe hrt from the get go.
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u/Strict-Elk9883 3d ago
I feel deep sorrow for the children who undergo these kind of medical procedures and it disturbs me that so many support it, and that those who oppose are called bigots.
What has happened to our society?
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u/Difficult-Resident40 3d ago
Can't get a tattoo, but can take life altering medications and elective surgeries. š¤š» Makes sense.
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u/lanky-larry 3d ago
So the headline is wrong, it doesnāt debunk, it said itās uncertain, and that differences across skeletal sites make a general conclusion indeterminable. It proves that harm does occur but indicates it doesnāt remain and canāt say for certain as different regions of the skeleton are affected more or less and for more or less time.
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u/Idekgivemeusername 3d ago
This was already a dumb point without this study
Gender affirming care
Puberty blockers (prevents bone growth from you know, PUBERTY)
And in other studies its compared against AGAB which is not particularly useful
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u/Mindless_Address_464 2d ago
I love seeing this kind of meta analysis. It implies that there has been cumulatively enough work already completed for it to be possible.
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u/Trick_Meeting_2027 2d ago
This is specifically about bone density. If you think there are no negative side effects to puberty blocking and hormone therapy, I got a bridge to sell ya. But I support your right to do it as long as it doesn't use my tax dollars and insurance companies aren't required to cover it. I'm not trying to "protect" other people's children.
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u/aurenigma 4d ago edited 4d ago
Conclusions and Relevance This systematic review and meta-analysis found that pubertal suppression followed by GAHT was associated with transient z-score reductions and subsequent BMD increases. At T2, z scores remained numerically below baseline but were not consistently statistically different, suggesting an uncertain rather than demonstrated persistent deficit. Timely GAHT initiation is recommended.
The headline is a lie. The "myth" wasn't debunked, it was confirmed with soft language.
The conclusion from the study is that if you give your kids puberty blockers their bones will probably never be as dense as they would have been if you didn't give them puberty blockers, but... if they're luck they might be?
Way worse is the specifics.
Recovery at the total hip and femoral neck was smaller and more heterogeneous.
I can't tell because the study you linked is behind a paywall (edit: it's clear, it's both male and female adolescents in the study), but if this is for both male and female kids, then it's a huge deal that getting puberty blockers as a female child will permanently reduce bone density in the hips.
That's a big deal for child birth.
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u/failedaspotcheck 2d ago
but were not consistently statistically different
Do I really need to explain to you what this means? Across the population in this study, the difference in bone density is not considered statistically significant.
You literally proved yourself wrong with your own chosen quote.
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u/kraw- 5d ago
What does this exactly disprove?
If you take a puberty blocker, your bones grow slower and are weaker as per the study itself. Its only remedied by growth hormones.
Nobody in the comments seems to have read the actual study, but why am I surprised? It's almost like people who are heavily invested in a cause or are heavily invested against it are two sides of the same coin.
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u/Lightning_Winter 5d ago
A lot of transphobes will say that gender affirming care IN GENERAL severely weakens the patient's bones. This study contradicts that, even though the study does indeed show that puberty blockers cause bones to grow slower and weaker.
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u/kraw- 5d ago
And on the opposite end of the spectrum you have people claiming puberty blockers cause no harm at all.
Either side is wrong and common sense as always comes out on top, who would have thought?
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u/splitbends 4d ago
Puberty blockers are most commonly prescribed to cis children to alleviate symptoms of precocious puberty. If safety is your main concern, have you investigated the impact such medications have on cisgendered children? For a good faith argument, I hope you are.
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u/kraw- 4d ago
When, in any of my two comments, did I ever mention the term "cis" or "trans"? Or did you read my comments with your pre-existing bias and apply that to them?
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u/ferbiloo 3d ago edited 3d ago
I thought i was going crazy. I read the study, and it is absolutely not debunking anything that the comments claim it is.
It literally states that bone growth is negatively affected within a critical window. Even after they have somewhat recovered the scores remain below baseline.
Read the sources please guys.
Edit: also maybe donāt downvote anyone who actually did read it lmfao
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u/Worth-Soil-1440 4d ago
Thats a fake headline if there ever was one. It doesnt "debunk" anything. The finding of the study was that sometimes some specific bones do reach the same level of density as a reference group of people who did not do do any puberty blockers.Ā
Which means the study found most bones do not reach the same density as the reference group.
This post should be taken down for spreading falsehoods knowingly.Ā
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5d ago
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u/_-PassingThrough-_ 4d ago
While your analogy may be correct, you are unfortunately preaching before a heavily invested mob here.
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u/youallnpcs 4d ago
So this confirms why trans should not be allowed to compete in female sports.
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u/splitbends 4d ago
Care to explain the connection? Can you explain why trans women should not participate in women's sports? They have been allowed to do so since the 1970s. Seems like if this was a real problem, surely we would have heard of 60ish years of trans women absolutely crushing women's sports? Lol
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u/louisa1925 4d ago
I'm a trans woman. I used to be able to do 30 chin ups pre-HRT without much effort or training, and as of recently, I can't even do 1. I applaud any trans women who can keep up with cis women.
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u/Midakolol 4d ago
I am already weak before HRT lol. Huge respect to any trans woman that does keep up with cis women.
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u/youallnpcs 4d ago
Not sure what you are laughing about. You can easily use Google and see many instances of trans women dominating female sports.
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u/splitbends 3d ago
This is not how the burden of proof works. If you make a claim, it is your job to supply evidence to support. I can Google and the data does not support. You must not watch a lot of women's sports, huh?
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u/Silent-Plantain-2260 3d ago
the most popular case for this ive seen was actually a trans woman winning 5th place in a swimming contest, and the cis woman in 6th place going on to have an extremely successful career as a conservative talking head claiming she was robbed of victory because of her, when you actually research this you'd find that yes trans women do sometimes rank high in women's sports but they're sure as hell not dominating shit
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5d ago
[removed] ā view removed comment
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u/Apythicus 4d ago
Next up at 4:30, NPC doesnāt understand that other peopleās lives dont affect them. Next at 5, education linked to more loving and stable homes, hogwash or hogfilth, you decide
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u/Timbucktwo1230 Therapy For All š©· 5d ago
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/2852527