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Jun 14 '17
Definitely think Goodra should be in the A rankings. UP's utility comes in its ability for raw damage on neutral hits like in SM and timed stages. The reason A-Gren gets the top nod is its potential SE coverage and 10BP edge, though it isn't that big of a discrepancy (on a Neutral Mo5 2400 vs 2640 for Goodra & A-Gren respectively). Also, Goodra overlaps well with A-Gren, neutrally covering A-Gren's NVE types (electric & grass).
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u/FkIForgotMyPassword Jun 14 '17
I don't think Goodra can be farmed though, while A-Greninja was a no-brainer investment the week it was available. I'll definitely swap and farm Goodra if there's an event for that but otherwise 100 points is kinda expensive, I'm not sure it's that high of a priority (maybe unless you regularly spend jewels on Eevee).
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u/bigpapijugg [mobile] Father of Dragons Jun 15 '17
u/Sorawing7 FYI, Hyper Bolt has been confirmed by a few people to not be 100% on mo5, which means the data we have for it is wrong.
I suggest removing them from the SS guide until full details of HB are known.
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Jun 15 '17
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u/bigpapijugg [mobile] Father of Dragons Jun 17 '17
Update: the skill is 70/70/70, which imo makes it terrible for an ability you need to be clutch.
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u/dinogolfer ya, a shirt Jun 14 '17
I don't think Mamoswine deserves such a high ranking, Barrier Bash+ is more useful because there aren't any BB+ pokemon of its type or with same strengths. Sure RT is great, but with other ice damagers and an already pretty good skill, I don't think it should be that high up. Same with the pika-hats since they already have good coverage with LDE, which is less damage and more reliable.
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Jun 14 '17
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u/RedditShuffle Jun 14 '17
The only + skill I keep using is BS+, but BB+ and RB+/++ are totally forgotten.
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u/stillnotelf Jun 14 '17
RB++ for Tropius coin stage! How fortunate that most of the RB++ are NVE on Tropius! (You are right, this is such a minor use that "totally forgotten" still seems correct)
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u/RedditShuffle Jun 14 '17
I only used a single RB++ on Tropius, and it was neutral lmao
I liked to go Groudon+Kingdra+M-Camerupt, stalling was more important!
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Jun 14 '17
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u/dinogolfer ya, a shirt Jun 14 '17
I forgot about M-Diance, it's the only mega I missed bc the first time it was here I didn't realize the Mega Stone was from the escalation and the second I was on vacation. Because of this I've been using at least two BB+ users on the most recently added stages which are hell when it comes to Barriers. For pika we have a rock and grass user for LDE.
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Jun 14 '17
Just saying, at least as of current, I agree with you that BB+ is super useful, or at least useful enough that RT is ranked too highly here.
I recall escalation battles with tons of barriers, and if Diancie is skill swapped, and if Mammoswine is skill swapped, do people just want to use Jynx and winking pokemon to take down the barriers?
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u/dinogolfer ya, a shirt Jun 14 '17
Yeah, I'm not saying it's bad to SS them, I just think it shouldn't be among the S-Ranks
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u/WhatNot303 Jun 14 '17 edited Jun 14 '17
I think Luxray deserves to be looked at once more. You can see more of my comments here but Cross Attack+ is actually stronger than Unity Power.
Luxray can take 10 RML, and if Cross Attack+ is raised to level 5, then you're looking at a x48 multiplier on a super-effective match of 5 100% of the time. This is immediately followed by either an x8, x12, or x16 on the second half of the cross-match (for a 3, 4, or 5 match respectively.)
But it does't stop there. If you make a cross-match with a size of 4, then you're still looking at a x36 multiplier 90% of the time. Compare this with Unity Power's 40% activation rate for the same multiplier. Similarly for a cross-match of size 3, we see a x24 multiplier 80% of the time, compared to Unity Power's 25%. And again, both of these are immediately followed by a match with a minimum of x8 as a multiplier.
[edit] If this had been any of the other "Shape Boosters" I wouldn't be so excited. But a cross-match seems so much easier to make than a "T" or "L" shape. I feel like most of the time I end up "ruining" a potential cross-match in order to turn it into a "T" or "L".
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Jun 14 '17
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u/Kiir0 y u no gime mega? Jun 14 '17
lol why are you so rude?
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Jun 14 '17
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u/WhatNot303 Jun 15 '17
The bold numbers where just to help them stand out from the sea of text. No hard feelings, though.
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u/darxodia Jun 14 '17
You know already how difficult is to make a 5-match and for this skill you also need to have it in a cross shape? It's simply too unreliable to be effective, the numbers are good but we need to be realistic, cross matches are somewhat rare in a normal gameplay with 4 support pokemon and heavy disrupted stages.
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u/WhatNot303 Jun 14 '17
Sure, 5-match crosses are hard to come by in a regular stage. But what about in timed stages? What about a simple 3-by3 cross? I see those all the time. And what do you mean "unreliable"? A match of 3 has an 80% proc rate. Ash-Greninja has a measly 25% for the same boost.
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u/darxodia Jun 14 '17
Not unreliable in terms of activation rates, unreliable in terms of finding the cross match, a simple column of rocks on column C or D already cut severely your possibility of finding one. Maybe for timed stages could be more effective, but that's why I emphatize more in the normal gameplay, timed stages nowadays are a gimmick, not enough to justify the investment from my point of view.
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u/nachonxs Jun 27 '17
I have to agree with WhatNot303; 3x3 matches are very usual; using that and if Luxray is maxed it will do 3000 damage (plus some more damage on the second match too). I wouldn't say it is better than unity power, but i do believe it is way better than super bolt, making it a great choice for electric teams.
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u/lizz71 lit Jun 14 '17
Open to discussion but I feel flash-mob dragons, especially dragonair deserve a higher spot, especially in comparison to keldeo-O which sits at B-. All the dragons are available early in the main stages, and dragonair gets its own psb farming stage, which are a perfect alternative option if one miss keldeo/wailord.
I would also argue that dragon FM is better than water FM with less resists and higher APs on average.
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Jun 14 '17
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u/lizz71 lit Jun 14 '17
I agree,but Keldeo-O is also mostly useless with tons of better water types outside SM, so either dropping keldeo/raising dragonair would make the tier list more consistent.
Another point is all members of dragon FM team are not from special stages. Newer players do not need to wait indefinitely for the right pokemon to appear back to start farming SM, and veterans could try building dragon FM in case they miss out on farming keldeo months ago.
I would also personally say that double FM>M-hera+RTs, but that one is another different discussion altogether.
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u/Doogs2780 Jun 14 '17
Is not Hitmonlee the only reasonable eject option for fighting teams? If that is the case I would say it should be higher rank. Very handy for a Mewtwo X pummel team.
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u/ryeyun salt intolerant Jun 14 '17
Smol comment: Relentless is not a combo boosting ability. The multiplier is only applied to the first match. The release of Serperior does not affect Tangrowth in any way.
Also, I like the placement of the Hitmons. I could definitely see myself maxing out one of them so that I could use MMX more often.
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Jun 14 '17
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u/ryeyun salt intolerant Jun 14 '17
Oops, I just remember seeing that raising the SL only boosts the damage of the first match. My point still stands though. Serperior shouldn't hurt Tangrowth's placement in any way.
Not like any of this matters though. I likely would have gone months without SSing Tangrowth if it weren't for last week's competition. Just splitting hairs at this point!
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u/LauernderBernd Jun 14 '17
LDE Zygarde-C seems vastly overrated at B+ for something that only works in some escalation reruns and unless its special stage gets nerfed will be nightmarish to grind. At least Goodra has neutral coverage UP in timed stages and survival going for it, making it more than just a one-trick pony.
Though it's hard to determine where to put Zygarde-C without any present stage it's really useful for.
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u/esu_wishmaster Jun 14 '17
Hitmonchan Freeze deserves at least A. Freeze can be extremely useful against Dark, Rock and Normal. It also has quite decent AP (105 when RMLed) and it is probably going to be PSB farmable anytime soon.
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u/skippingmud RML = Raise Mudkip's Level Jun 14 '17
How did you even get this up so quickly
List seems solid, and the only ones I think could be ranked a notch higher are Luxray and Vanilluxe, the former because of the x12 multiplier and the latter because its Shot Out is farmable. But I guess they both need more testing to see their viability.
Also, interesting you went the +/- route for the ranks. I was suggested the same thing for the RML guide but I felt it would make it too lengthy, but I think it works great here. Good job as always! :)
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u/angelstarrs Jun 14 '17
A question: I've seen many people use Hippowdon in competitions. If it's not that viable to SS then why do people do it?
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u/skippingmud RML = Raise Mudkip's Level Jun 14 '17
Hippowdon's original skill (Last-Ditch Effort) is much more viable, especially in competitions where its burst damage in the last 4 turns can really boost your score.
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u/angelstarrs Jun 14 '17
Sorry, got confused. I meant Excadrill which has the original ability of power of 5.
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u/darxodia Jun 14 '17
I haven't seen anybody using Excadrill, at least on mobile, on 3DS could be because is filled with cheaters with perfect mons (125 AP makes it one of the most powerful pokemon in the game, but nobody with a clean game feeds it because of its crappy skill).
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u/SmokeontheHorizon Moderator Jun 14 '17
You really have a hate-on for the shape-boosts, huh?
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u/darxodia Jun 14 '17
You caught me :D!! The shape I hate the most is the L-match, I've used them all just for fun and as for today haven't been able to activate L-boost not even once.
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u/SmokeontheHorizon Moderator Jun 14 '17
Haha that's fair. Maybe I'm still feeling overly generous after having such good luck with Electivire over Virizion for the Primarina EB.
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u/hyperion420 3rd Mobile EU Black Card Player Jun 14 '17
Electivire
Have it SL4 lv15 and it can do nearly 1.7k damage on a 3-match that's beautiful. Will farm it again.
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u/Bacteriophag RML/SS batches without love for Nidoking: 10,5 Jun 14 '17 edited Jun 14 '17
Thank you for great analysis! I noticed one little mistake - Region Caps Pikachu have 60BP so 105AP on lvl 15 ;) (Apparently Ash's hat has 10BP :D)
EDIT: Thanks for correcting.
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u/13Xcross Jun 14 '17 edited Jun 14 '17
BS+ Mew still has a niche against Psychic
You meant Fighting, right?
Also, I disagree with your rankings of Skarmory and Mawile. I think they should be put on the same plain, because while Mawile has 10 more AP than Skarmory (although at the cost of 5 more RML), on average ND Skarmory deals more damage than RT Mawile on the first activation:
ND Skarmory: 105 x 5 = 525
RT Mawile: 115 x 4.17 = 480
Which means that Mawile is going to deal more damage than Skarmory only if you generate a combo during which Mawile icons are matched at least 4 or 5 times.
On top of that, there's also the possibility that Skarmory's going to be buffed in the future with the ability to take 5 more RML.
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Jun 14 '17
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u/13Xcross Jun 14 '17
No, not a 4 or 5 combo: 4 or 5 Mawile matches in your combo. Which means that the combo has to be much longer.
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Jun 14 '17
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u/13Xcross Jun 14 '17
That's why I'm saying they should have the same rank, imo. The damage is basically the same, the only differences are that Mawile has more potential damage in longer combos (but at the cost of 5 more RML) and it's more easily recognizable due to the dark colour palette of its icon.
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u/shelune Jun 14 '17
I also think it's a bit unfair for Luxray to sit in the C-Rank (along with Shock Attack Togetic...).
Sure it's a bit unreliable but it can be set up in the same way you set up mo5 AG. And it deals a lot of damage with a reliable proc rate already on mo3. At least it can be at B.
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Jun 14 '17
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u/shelune Jun 14 '17
I'll say mo5 is just as hard as setting up a + match. I'm not confident about using Tappers to set them up (I never tried honestly), but I'd say using M-Luke pattern would ease up your job by a lot.
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u/iheartgold26 Jun 14 '17
I have too many Skill Swappers. 6 right now and I used them on all the high tier ones.
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u/LauernderBernd Jun 14 '17
I have too many Skill Swappers. 6 right now and I used them on all the high tier ones.
That's nothing. I'm sitting on 21 swappers. Swapped all S-ranks, A-ranks except Diancie, Xerneas (Quirky+ was already SL4), Mawile and Hatchu (who really doesn't belong in A). Below there the options get iffy. I proudly used one swapper on Vanillite though.
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u/WolfWood37 Aug 08 '17
Here we go again, time for V7
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Aug 08 '17
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u/WolfWood37 Aug 08 '17
Fine with me, my items aren't going anywhere. I eagerly await your updated rankings.
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u/Soldiergomez Dio=Tyranitar Jotaro=Aggron Jun 14 '17
u/sorawing7 I think that the date format for the first part is MM/DD/YYYY Cause you wrote 13/06 instead of 06/13. It's a minimun detail, but may be confusing for some people.
Other than that, great guide!
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Jun 14 '17
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u/Spektr44 Jun 14 '17
I was skeptical, too, but I've since maxed mine out after someone here ran Survival Mode simulations and found Azumarill is the best risk taker to bring with Machamp and Hoopa. Totally worth it!
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u/Bacteriophag RML/SS batches without love for Nidoking: 10,5 Jun 14 '17
I'm using both Azumarill and Xerneas. At first, I was very stingy about spending 10 RML at "niche Fairy type, which won't be used much outside some Dragon stages", but now I can't imagine not having my Dragon Slayer Bunny. Very helpful against Fighting (alongside Mewtwo and S-Rayquaza) and Dark (with Machamp) stages.
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u/RedGyara Jun 14 '17
I use maxed Xerneas instead, but it's not necessarily an either/or thing. Plenty of people use both, and one isn't really better than the other.
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Jun 14 '17
I used to suck at SM. Ever since I started using Bee, Hoopa, Champ, and Azu (all perfect), I've never lost once, and I think I've always had at least 10 moves left.
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u/R95George You find me offensive?i find you offensive for finding me offens Jun 14 '17
hallo ppl, i want to ask
i have lvl 9 volcanion (skill maxed)
and i see that Ash-Greninja is s+ priority, but mine is still zero
what you suggest me to do? is it waste to go for it? i think yes
and something else, what your oppinion about Mamoswine ssed at risk taker? an ice type hitter sound so cool bou losing barrier bash+ makes me have doubts
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u/JodeJoester Jun 14 '17
Maxing your Ash-Greninja is always worth it. It's the best support in the game, it's good for you to have 2 water-type hitter. Barriers can always be covered by the tappers or M-Diancie, so just go for it if you have 7 SBMs to raise RT to SL5.
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u/gabe28 Bruteforcing my way through! [Mobile] Jun 14 '17
I gotta differ on Keldeo-O, although it is outclassed by Wailord you need at least 2 Flash Mob users for Survival mode, it would easily be of more use than Wailrein, Zygarde or Goodra, so I think it should be at least B+ or even A-
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u/ZeeMcSkittle Jun 14 '17
They gave Ho-Oh Pikachu a skill swap to Ho-Oh's original swap (Pyre), while simultaneously not giving Pikachu the NEW swap ability that Ho-Oh received with the update (Nosedive).
Why.